Double edged sword

[Fireinfolding]

Hi, Fireinfolding,

Well, you will hear believers, in trying to explain why a Biblical figure's action seems contrary to the Mosaic Law, say that they were following the "spirit of the law" and not just the "letter of the law," as though there is a dichotomy of the Law in which the "spirit" trumps the "letter."

For example, in the woman taken in adultery, whom Jesus did not have stoned according to the Law. Some explain it as Jesus was following the "spirit of the law" and not just the "letter of the law."

None of that is Scriptural.

Perhaps you could give examples yourself.

Does this help?

Thanks Clare, because there is that instance when Mary was with child before Joseph understood that the child was of the Holy Ghost, it speaks of him as a just man and wanting to put her away privily. And of his own unwillingness to make her a publick example

What is thought to be an unfaithful woman is made an example of more publically (via law) that could be one, not sure.

Then again, when I read the law I find types similitudes and allegories, not laws, so although I catch these things speaking forward in Christ, theres other things I might overpass. Other things that might make sense on an entirely different level but I dont know what you would call that. This one is a toughy to word, because you start comparing and seeing things differently whereas someone else might see it more concretely speaking in itself.

But I dont know what you call that.

 

[Fireinfolding]

You mean serve the oldness of the letter? We were all once servants of sin, and under the law of sin.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Why is the world guilty? Because of sin.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Good point, cant really live in something being dead therein huh?

Whereas to serve the oldnes means...

) to be a slave, serve, do service
a) of a nation in subjection to other nations
2) metaph. to obey, submit to
a) in a good sense, to yield obedience
b) in a bad sense, of those who become slaves to some base power, to yield to, give one's self up to


Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

They arent even hearing the allegory found in the law

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Rather then being guilty by the law these are believing they are justified by the law, Christ becomes of no effect. Verses sin having no dominion over you under grace

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Good point, cant really live in something being dead therein huh?

Whereas to serve the oldnes means...

) to be a slave, serve, do service
a) of a nation in subjection to other nations
2) metaph. to obey, submit to
a) in a good sense, to yield obedience
b) in a bad sense, of those who become slaves to some base power, to yield to, give one's self up to


Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

They arent even hearing the allegory found in the law

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Rather then being guilty by the law these are believing they are justified by the law, Christ becomes of no effect. Verses sin having no dominion over you under grace

That's right, they could not hear or understand the similitudes and allegories given as signs in the natural law(which was just a shadow of better things to come) because their hearts were hardened, and their minds were darkened because of their lack of faith.

Zechariah 7:12
Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

 

[Clare73]

It's not a shocker to me because I understand it as the Lord has shown me.
There is a law of sin, and a law of righteousness.

Hi, InSpiritinTruth,

Well, Paul is using "law" here to mean controlling power. He uses it in several ways in Romans--e.g., to mean the Pentateuch, or the OT as a whole, or a principle.

The "law of sin" is the controlling power of sin.
The "law of righteousness" is the controlling power of righteousness (Ro 6:20).

What law do you suppose the Lord spoke of when He mentioned the New Covenant where He said He would write His laws upon their hearts and minds?

That would be the law of Christ, which is the law of God (1Co 9:21), and is the law of love (Ro 3:8-10).

This inward covenant is the spiritual law of righteousness (written inwardly) and sealed by way of a spiritual circumcision. The natural law written on tablets (outwardly) was just a sign of the greater spiritual to come (inwardly) by way of God's Word and Spirit dwelling in us. (Christ in us)

Actually, the contrast between written on tablets and written on our hearts is a contrast between
obedience by external constraint of the law, and obedience by internal inclination of the heart, because of the Holy Spirit.

Also, God's law written on tablets is an analogy, rather than a sign, of God's law written on the heart.
An analogy is the same thing, in different ways. The same law was written in different ways.

However, a sign is different things in the same way.
The animals and the body of Christ are sacrifices in the same way.
The Sabbath Day and Christ are rest from all work in the same way, etc.

Romans 7:6

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Again, "the letter" here means the law itself, and the contrast is between serving by external constraint of the letter (law) and serving by internal inclination of the Spirit.

Romans 7:14

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Yes, the holy law is spiritual because it is from God, the divine Spirit, but my nature is sinful, fleshly (carnal), not spiritual.

Romans 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul is using "law" to mean controlling power.
One is the controlling power of the Holy Spirit, who is life-giving.
The other is the controlling power of sin, which ultimately produces dath.

 

[Clare73]

Thanks Clare, because there is that instance when Mary was with child before Joseph understood that the child was of the Holy Ghost, it speaks of him as a just man and wanting to put her away privily. And of his own unwillingness to make her a publick example

What is thought to be an unfaithful woman is made an example of more publically (via law) that could be one, not sure.

Then again, when I read the law I find types similitudes and allegories, not laws, so although I catch these things speaking forward in Christ, theres other things I might overpass. Other things that might make sense on an entirely different level but I dont know what you would call that. This one is a toughy to word, because you start comparing and seeing things differently whereas someone else might see it more concretely speaking in itself.

But I dont know what you call that.

If I'm not mistaken, I think that is called interpreting them allegorically.

 

[Fireinfolding]

That's right, they could not hear or understand the similitudes and allegories given as signs in the natural law(which was just a shadow of better things to come) because their hearts were hardened, and their minds were darkened because of their lack of faith.

Zechariah 7:12
Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

Good one, agreed bro

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

1Cr 12:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;

 

[Fireinfolding]

If I'm not mistaken, I think that is called interpreting them allegorically.

I'm guessing must be Clare, Paul said thats how the Holy Ghost teaches also, in the sense of comparing spiritual things with spiritual containing an allegory where one is found. Since God said He had spoken using similitudes by the ministry of the prophets.

 

[Clare73]

Those with the Spirit of Christ, I agree

His heel would be hers wouldnt it?

"Thou (speaking to the serpent) shall bruise his (seed of the woman) heel."

The seed of the woman (Christ) crushed the head of the serpent (eternal mortal wound) on the cross,
but the serpent bruised his heel (non-eternal mortal wound), because he was the primary agent of Christ's death.

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

Given His seed (the Word of God) abides in her (the Church) made up of both Jew and Gentile right?

The Greek text says "crush under your feet."

The Church is the body of Christ, and Christ crushed Satan under his feet.

 

[Fireinfolding]

"Thou (speaking to the serpent) shall bruise his (seed of the woman) heel."

The seed of the woman crushed the head of the serpent (eternal mortal wound) on the cross, but the serpent bruised his heel (non-eternal mortal wound), because he was the primary agent of his death.


The Greek text says "crush under your feet."

The Church is the body of Christ, and Christ crushed Satan under his feet.

Either one, the Hebrew for bruise is

1) to bruise, crush, gape upon, desire?, seize?, strike out?
a) (Qal) to fall upon, bruise

And pretty much stay outside of the realm of bickering over words myself, can be a mood spoiler.

God does so to Satan under your feet (His Church)

 

[Clare73]

Either one,

And pretty much stay outside of the realm of bickering over words myself, can be a mood spoiler.

Agreed!

God does so to Satan under your feet (His Church)

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I'm guessing must be Clare, Paul said thats how the Holy Ghost teaches also, in the sense of comparing spiritual things with spiritual containing an allegory where one is found. Since God said He had spoken using similitudes by the ministry of the prophets.

Yes and Paul understood this as well, even showing us the allegory of the fleshy seed (and covenant) and the spiritual seed (and covenant) in the children of the bondwoman (bondage to sin) and the children of the freewoman by the seed of promise (Spirit).

Galatians 4:23
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

The freewoman is the sign of the mother (womans seed) of all those who are born of God's Spirit. Just as Jesus said to his disciples that he would send the promise of the Father unto them.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yeah bro, and you know you can see the cross over over between the two, given theres not one of us not born of or after the flesh. I mean even in Pauls case is an example of "In Isaac" (or as of one seed) being called in the same promise (the Spirit).

In Isaac (as of one) thy seed (as of many) shall be called

Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Agar Mount Sinai (the law)

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Acts 9:4 ... Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Whereas...

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Again...

Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Acts 24:16 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul,Saul, why persecutest thou me?

In Isaac thy seed shall be called

Mother of many nations (born of the Spirit) verses of one nation (after the flesh) which was still Paul's nation

Gen 17:29 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

He that hath not the Spirit of Christ (the seed to whom the promise was made) and upon all who believe

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Whereas...

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh;

Which Saul (after the same) persecuted Christ (after the Spirit) until he was called by Christ, then this here...

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

I have wondered if you can show this as being being separated unto the gospel out of the bondwoman (in someway) though... not that it matters, one could take it carnally (his earthly mother) or of Jerusalem (according to the patern) because both can be seen, even though he speaks expresively so of the Jerusalem above (being mother of us all).

I was looking at this on that one thread which quickly went downhill, given it shows Christ being made of a woman made under the law (though come down from above) and I would have loved to look into that further, but as it has it around here that just never works out, just that all things work out for our good, even when it heads to the gutter anyway... ""resists"" an animated smilie (there).

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Yeah bro, and you know you can see the cross over over between the two, given theres not one of us not born of or after the flesh. I mean even in Pauls case is an example of "In Isaac" (or as of one seed) being called in the same promise (the Spirit).

In Isaac (as of one) thy seed (as of many) shall be called

Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Agar Mount Sinai (the law)

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Acts 9:4 ... Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Whereas...

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Again...

Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Acts 24:16 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul,Saul, why persecutest thou me?

In Isaac thy seed shall be called

Mother of many nations (born of the Spirit) verses of one nation (after the flesh) which was still Paul's nation

Gen 17:29 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

He that hath not the Spirit of Christ (the seed to whom the promise was made) and upon all who believe

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Whereas...

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh;

Which Saul (after the same) persecuted Christ (after the Spirit) until he was called by Christ, then this here...

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

I have wondered if you can show this as being being separated unto the gospel out of the bondwoman (in someway) though... not that it matters, one could take it carnally (his earthly mother) or of Jerusalem (according to the patern) because both can be seen, even though he speaks expresively so of the Jerusalem above (being mother of us all).

I was looking at this on that one thread which quickly went downhill, given it shows Christ being made of a woman made under the law (though come down from above) and I would have loved to look into that further, but as it has it around here that just never works out, just that all things work out for our good, even when it heads to the gutter anyway... ""resists"" an animated smilie (there).

You mean bondwoman like the earthly mother who also is a sign of a rebellous (Mary) people, like fleshy mother under the law (woman, what have I to do with you?) type sign?

And since were on the topic of that two-edged sword that divides the soul and spirit, and a sign given in Mary, check this one out.

Luke 2:35
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Soul/Spirit

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yes, the thoughts of many (plurally) in the one (singular)