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Doomsday Clock is 100 seconds to midnight, the symbolic hour of the apocalypse

grasping the after wind

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I have no opinion on the Doomsday clock. To say that you have seen no evidence that the Doomsday clock is a reliable guide is fine - I agree with you. But you originally wrote this:

There is a made up device that proports to measure something unmeasurable and some gullible people decide to believe in it as if it actually measured something. I hardly see that as being a valid argument for the rest of us to engage in self deception

That is a much stronger claim. In particular, how do you know that our nearness to doomsday is unmeasurable. Is this just an opinion. If so, fair enough.

It is an opinion that is based upon logically examining the question. I cannot come up with any plausible way to even to begin to measure our nearness to a doomsday using objective criterion. Should someone come up with a time machine I could be persuaded that they might also come up with an objective way to measure the nearness to a doomsday of some sort.
 
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expos4ever

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Or college. Where did Al Gore get his information from? "Gore became interested in global warming when he took a course at Harvard University with Professor Roger Revelle, one of the first scientists to measure carbon dioxide in the atmosphere." An Inconvenient Truth - Wikipedia

Perhaps Harvard University professors don't qualify as "experts" anymore.
What Al Gore believes is irrelevant.

Surely you cannot be arguing that because Al Gore took a course from a Harvard professor, the fact that Al Gore is not a climate expert means that the professor is not a climate expert!

What, exactly, is your point?
 
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Aldebaran

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What Al Gore believes is irrelevant.

Surely you cannot be arguing that because Al Gore took a course from a Harvard professor, the fact that Al Gore is not a climate expert means that the professor is not a climate expert!

What, exactly, is your point?

You mean Harvard hires professors who don't know what they're talking about? To make that assumption, you'd have to assume you know more than the professor, and more than Harvard University.
 
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grasping the after wind

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You mean Harvard hires professors who don't know what they're talking about? To make that assumption, you'd have to assume you know more than the professor, and more than Harvard University.

Not really, you would just have to have had some experience with professors in general and assume that Harvard is not somehow infallible unlike all the other universities in existence. You seem to be assuming that every expert and every Harvard professor always agree and that none of them are ever in disagreement about a finding or that a professor would never be hired due to their notoriety rather than their scholarship.
 
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expos4ever

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IOW, whatever the experts say is truth. Right?
Your implication - that experts are not to be trusted - is rather astonishing. And somewhat hard to believe. Do you reject the advice of your doctor, your lawyer, your mechanic?

But, yes, what qualified experts say about something that we cannot assess ourselves like climate (although many here seem to think they are climate scientists) is the most reliable guide for our actions.

What do scientists and experts say about God?
They say absolutely nothing - show me one peer-reviewed scientific publication dealing with the matter of God.
 
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Aldebaran

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Your implication - that experts are not to be trusted - is rather astonishing. And somewhat hard to believe. Do you reject the advice of your doctor, your lawyer, your mechanic?

If I had a doctor who was paid kickbacks for prescribing certain medications and had a history of performing unneeded operations to get more insurance payments, then I'd question my doctor. Ever hear of getting a second opinion?

They say absolutely nothing - show me one peer-reviewed scientific publication dealing with the matter of God.

You could have just done a quick google search to find out that you're wrong about that. Here is just one of the many results I found: Please allow Stephen Hawking to explain time, history, and God
 
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Aldebaran

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What Al Gore believes is irrelevant.

The "truth" he talks about used to be called inconvenient. Now that his little movie was shown to be based on falsehoods, the man himself is simply irrelevant. How convenient!
 
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civilwarbuff

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Is this a serious request?
Of course it is....any claim should be able to be backed up by citatiions, don't you agree? Scientific papers generally have long lists of citations from where they draw their information.
 
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civilwarbuff

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trust the scientists,
Why?....are they less susceptible to greed, envy, lust, jealousy, etc? Why should they be trusted any more than others?
 
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HARK!

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The scientific consensus on this matter is not an "opinion, taste, or value" - the claim that we have created a problem is robustly supported with hard evidence.

A consensus, or agreement, does not constitute a fact.
A claim does not constitute a fact.

What you have is a claim; with no proof. That's doesn't sound very scientific.

I'll give you a scientific term that would begin to give me some respect for these lapdogs, posing as scientists, who make bare assertions to justify their paychecks. It's call quantitative analysis.

I would argue, and this argument goes as far back as Ancient Rome, that you don't effectively have control of anything that you can't quantify.

That said, I have seen no evidence which quantifies exactly how much effect anthropologic CO2 has on rising global temperature. Also remember that correlation does not equate to causation. Historically, there has been a correlation to rising temperatures and atmospheric CO2 concentrations; but the extreme vast majority of this CO2 has been released from ice melts. That said, in recent history the correlation of atmospheric CO2 and global temperatures, has diverged exponentially. At this pont in time I see no correlation, as CO2 levels have skyrocketed, with no noticeable effect on temperature.

Now if one of these, so called, scientists could actually quantify what effect anthroplogic CO2 has on the atmosphere, and quantify how much we need to cut anthropologic CO2 emissions, to what quantifiable effect; I might pay heed. This is science.

That said, it's laughable to insist that placing a tax on CO2 emissions is a scientific solution to what science supports to be a natural Milankovitch Cycle. If it smells like a tax scheme; it probably is.
 
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expos4ever

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If I had a doctor who was paid kickbacks for prescribing certain medications and had a history of performing unneeded operations to get more insurance payments, then I'd question my doctor.
Where is your evidence - man it is really hard to believe you guys don't get that you don't get to invent facts - that kickbacks have infected the entire scientific investigation of global warming?

You could have just done a quick google search to find out that you're wrong about that. Here is just one of the many results I found: Please allow Stephen Hawking to explain time, history, and God
Stop bending the truth, please. I stated:

show me one peer-reviewed scientific publication dealing with the matter of God.
 
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Aldebaran

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Where is your evidence - man it is really hard to believe you guys don't get that you don't get to invent facts - that kickbacks have infected the entire scientific investigation of global warming?

Please try to read more carefully. You asked me about doctors, lawyers and mechanics, and I answered you accordingly.

show me one peer-reviewed scientific publication dealing with the matter of God.

As if a person's peers determine truth. Always easiest to go along with the crowd.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Why?....are they less susceptible to greed, envy, lust, jealousy, etc? Why should they be trusted any more than others?

Because if you don't trust those with the secret knowledge that only they are privy to, then you are a heretic.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Your implication - that experts are not to be trusted - is rather astonishing. And somewhat hard to believe. Do you reject the advice of your doctor, your lawyer, your mechanic?
Reject out of hand?....no. But let me relay a short story from 1st hand experience...
About 13 years ago a patient came to our cath lab with chest pain; he had already had open heart surgery X1 so he was brought directly to our lab. We accessed the femoral artery and slid the catheter up the aorta and engaged the left main. The physician injected contrast and we saw.....a normal left coronary artery. After taking several pictures from different projections he accessed the right coronary artery and found...... a normal RCA. We spent the next 45 minutes looking for coronary vein grafts and found none. We did, however, find he had normal left ventricular function. This man had a scar down the middle of his chest with wire sutures around his sternum indicating his chest had been opened. He had a long scar down the inside of his right leg indicating harvesting of femoral vein for grafting....however he had normal coronary arteries and LV function indicating that he had ZERO coronary artery disease. So, why did he have these physical marks? Ehhhh, maybe because someone was making money....in his case from the cardiologist who knew from the cath procedure that his arteries were normal all the way to the operating staff who witnessed the surgery.
So, are 'experts' to be trusted?....No....they are to be doubted and questioned especially if they are unwilling to share their evidence and procedures openly and honestly.....and especially if they have something to gain from their position.
 
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expos4ever

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The "truth" he talks about used to be called inconvenient. Now that his little movie was shown to be based on falsehoods, the man himself is simply irrelevant. How convenient!
If you have any actual evidence that global warming is not happening and is not human-caused, or that the scientific consensus on this is tainted, please present it. And though you should have been taught this in high school - presenting one anecdote doesn't count.

Opinions and unsupported statements are basically worthless.

Claims need evidence - either data or (reliable) sources. Is this so hard to understand?
 
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Aldebaran

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If you have any actual evidence that global warming is not happening and is not human-caused, or that the scientific consensus on this is tainted, please present it. And though you should have been taught this in high school - presenting one anecdote doesn't count.

Opinions and unsupported statements are basically worthless.

I'm not going to sit here and write you a scientific paper on the subject. Even if I did, you'd claim that I'm just one person. So what's your real point, other than that the majority is always right?

Claims need evidence - either data or (reliable) sources. Is this so hard to understand?

What do you tell people who respond that way to you after you witness to them?
 
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expos4ever

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It is an opinion that is based upon logically examining the question. I cannot come up with any plausible way to even to begin to measure our nearness to a doomsday using objective criterion.
I politely suggesting you are overstepping your own expertise - you, like me, are probably not adequately qualified to render an informed opinion on this matter - it could turn out there are indeed some measurable things that are predictive, at least to some degree, of "doomsday". The fact that you cannot think of any is not that significant (same goes for me).
 
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HARK!

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Where is your evidence - man it is really hard to believe you guys don't get that you don't get to invent facts - that kickbacks have infected the entire scientific investigation of global warming?

Let's face it; the days of men like Newton, Boyle, Galileo, and Fourier, are over. These guys were motivated not by their quest for money, but their quest for understanding. Today, I believe that most scientists start out the same way; then they take out large loans for education. They seek jobs to pay back those loans. They seek these jobs from people who have the money to pay them. Those who pay these scientists are looking for specific results. If someone working as a scientist is not delivering the results that his employer is seeking; he loses his income, and he's left with his debt. Therefore exist monetary incentives for biased scientific opinions which support the agendas of wealthy, and political, powers.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Let's face it; the days of men like Newton, Boyle, Galileo, and Fourier, are over. These guys were motivated not by their quest for money, but their quest for understanding. Today, I believe that most scientists start out the same way; then they take out large loans for education. They seek jobs to pay back those loans. They seek these jobs from people who have the money to pay them. Those who pay these scientists are looking for specific results. If someone working as a scientist is not delivering the results that his employer is seeking; he loses his income, and he's left with his debt. Therefore exist monetary incentives for biased scientific opinions which support the agendas of wealthy, and political, powers.
Yep, and I have witnessed that 1st hand.....
 
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HARK!

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So what's your real point, other than that the majority is always right?

There was a time when the majority accepted that the Earth was flat. Argumentum ad populum fails.
 
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