Don't worry - I'm only 75% right - NT Wright

[colinlindsay]

What do you people who hold a high view of preaching and scripture think of the Bishop of Durham being honest enough to confess that probably 25% of what he preaches and believes now may be wrong?

If with all his learning, he can only aspire to that level of certainty what does that say about reformed people who hold that all truth is there to be found in it's entirety - everything that God has put in His word is there to be found.

 

[inchristalone221]

What do you people who hold a high view of preaching and scripture think of the Bishop of Durham being honest enough to confess that probably 25% of what he preaches and believes now may be wrong?

If with all his learning, he can only aspire to that level of certainty what does that say about reformed people who hold that all truth is there to be found in it's entirety - everything that God has put in His word is there to be found.

I don't understand the issue. He is probably safe in guessing that and I'm sure any reformed teacher would make the same statement in all honesty.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

i've been quoting a seminary prof that starts all of his lectures off with "30% of everything i believe is wrong, i just don't know which 30% or i would fix it", for several months now.

if he thinks he is only 25% wrong, he is well ahead of the rest of us. personally i'd appreciate just being 51% right.

 

[Rick Otto]

for the usual pulpit pilot!

Tell 'em to look me up here, I'll be glad to give 'em under MY microscope!

 

[mlqurgw]

Honestly, if I thought anything I preached was wrong I wouldn't preach it. I just don't preach anythng I am not sure of. I do not preach my opinions but what I am convinced is the truth of Scripture.

Edit for additional comments:
I am very aware of the responsibility that I have as one speaking in the name of Christ and the fact that those who hear me may not live to see another hour. I care far too much for the souls of men and women to give them fluff or something that may or may not be true.

 

[heymikey80]

What do you people who hold a high view of preaching and scripture think of the Bishop of Durham being honest enough to confess that probably 25% of what he preaches and believes now may be wrong?

I think it is a respectful thing to say, it's an admission of our own inability. I believe the "T" in TULIP, too.

If with all his learning, he can only aspire to that level of certainty what does that say about reformed people who hold that all truth is there to be found in it's entirety - everything that God has put in His word is there to be found.

I've rarely run across such people you describe, who aren't in a cult.

I think they're wrong -- Scriptures says they lie -- if they think they see it all aright.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 1 Cor 13:9-10, 12

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 Jn 1:8
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And while I'm aware of the Scriptures saying, "you know all things" I think that's more a statement like we have in English, "You know all about this."

Presbyterians at least can't claim that the truth may be found in its entirety in Scripture. That's actually a position of the Radical Reformation, not of the Magisterial Reformation:

All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them. Westminster, Ch. 1 Sec. 7
​

 

[Erinwilcox]

Nobody is perfect and nobody has a complete grip on the doctrines or theology found in the Bible. If anyone were to claim otherwise, then I think that there would be cause for great concern. Obviously, a true Christian pastor will only preach that which he believes is biblical. If, at a later time, he finds that something that he preached was incorrect, then it is his duty as a shepher of Christ's flock to correct that which was wrong. Personally, I wouldn't go to a church where the pastor claims to be 100% correct all of the time. Our lives, though cleansed by Christ's blood, are still tainted by sin: we still sin, though it grieves us and we repent of it. Therefore, our doctrines and theologies are still somewhat tainted by sin (some more so than others, though). Just as we repent of our sins, we must also repent of incorrect doctrines and theologies as they are brought to our attention with biblical proofs.

 

[MrsGwaihir]

Very good discussion. It is tempting to boast about what we think we understand and what we think we know.

Paul prayed for Timothy that the Lord would give him understanding in all things. 2 Tim 2:7

SO should we pray for our pastors and teaches.

 

[ClementofRome]

My old seminary professor used to say that on any given day his assurance fluctuated between 80 and 95%. He was one of the most godly, pious and knowledgable men I have ever known. It was assuring to me that he was often willing to admit that he was not certain.

I teach college level biblical studies and I am constantly saying things like, "Now I may be wrong about this, but this is my take on the matter."

I do not think that this is a wrong approach.

 

[MrsGwaihir]

My old seminary professor used to say that on any given day his assurance fluctuated between 80 and 95%. He was one of the most godly, pious and knowledgable men I have ever known. It was assuring to me that he was often willing to admit that he was not certain.

I teach college level biblical studies and I am constantly saying things like, "Now I may be wrong about this, but this is my take on the matter."

I do not think that this is a wrong approach.

I agree with you. I taught youth Bible studies for about 10 years and found it an awsome responsibility and challenge.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Honestly, if I thought anything I preached was wrong I wouldn't preach it. I just don't preach anythng I am not sure of. I do not preach my opinions but what I am convinced is the truth of Scripture.


the issue is not that anyone believes that X: a thing they believe false yet continue to teach it as true.
it is that people at that level of teaching(seminary/university), realize from history that people(just like themselves) have often been sincerely wrong, believing things for their entire lives, fully believing that these things are true and are Biblical. Yet we their intellectual successors believe that they were wrong, not Biblical, yet sincerely and full convinced they were right.

issues:
slavery- i have only to think about Robert Dabney, my 2nd favorite theologian.

temperance

geocentricism

and the list goes on....

 

[mlqurgw]

Honestly, if I thought anything I preached was wrong I wouldn't preach it. I just don't preach anythng I am not sure of. I do not preach my opinions but what I am convinced is the truth of Scripture.


the issue is not that anyone believes that X: a thing they believe false yet continue to teach it as true.
it is that people at that level of teaching(seminary/university), realize from history that people(just like themselves) have often been sincerely wrong, believing things for their entire lives, fully believing that these things are true and are Biblical. Yet we their intellectual successors believe that they were wrong, not Biblical, yet sincerely and full convinced they were right.


Edit for additional comments:
I did want to add that my response to many questions that are asked of me is I don't know.

issues:
slavery- i have only to think about Robert Dabney, my 2nd favorite theologian.

temperance

geocentricism

and the list goes on....

Of course I do not believe I have all the answers nor all the truth. There is far more in the Scriptures that I do not understand than there is that I do. My response was to the OP.

What do you people who hold a high view of preaching and scripture think of the Bishop of Durham being honest enough to confess that probably 25% of what he preaches and believes now may be wrong?

Edit for additioal comments:
I did want to add that my response to many questions asked of me is " I don't know. "

 

[ClementofRome]

Here is a different approach (sadly to say)...

I was leading a conference for a number of United Methodist pastors...mostly southern....mostly rural and moderately conservative...

At lunch, I overhead a particular fire-brand say "I do not believe 60% of what the Bible says...and the other 40%, I take with a grain of salt."

I almost choked on my tuna sandwich! This guy is standing in the pulpit Sunday after Sunday and preaching a gospel that he does not believe....how many others could be out there?

 

[Catholic Dude]

What do you people who hold a high view of preaching and scripture think of the Bishop of Durham being honest enough to confess that probably 25% of what he preaches and believes now may be wrong?

If with all his learning, he can only aspire to that level of certainty what does that say about reformed people who hold that all truth is there to be found in it's entirety - everything that God has put in His word is there to be found.

How can someone in a teaching position claim a percentage of their teaching is questionable or even wrong? Either they should be reading out of an official text or dont talk about the given topic.

As for the second part, that is a very good observation.

 

[inchristalone221]

How can someone in a teaching position claim a percentage of their teaching is questionable or even wrong? Either they should be reading out of an official text or dont talk about the given topic.

One must admit that he is wrong in at least some doctrines, otherwise he makes himself out to be one who fully understands a transcendent God, which is contradictory. As has been said, if you know which things you have wrong you correct them, if you don't you can't.

 

[mlqurgw]

One must admit that he is wrong in at least some doctrines, otherwise he makes himself out to be one who fully understands a transcendent God, which is contradictory. As has been said, if you know which things you have wrong you correct them, if you don't you can't.

I think there is a difference in understanding everything and knowing what you know. A person can be convinced that he knows what he knows and also know he doesn't know everything. Our knowledge is limited certainly, but we can, without doubt, know what we know. It would be the height of arrogance to say the I know everything about God but it isn't to say that what I know about Him is right. If I am not convinced that it is right then I don't really know it do I? that would be speculation. Now it is possible to cinvince me that what I thought I knew was wrong but until you can do that I must say that it is right. Otherwise no one can really know anything.

 

[inchristalone221]

I think there is a difference in understanding everything and knowing what you know. A person can be convinced that he knows what he knows and also know he doesn't know everything. Our knowledge is limited certainly, but we can, without doubt, know what we know. It would be the height of arrogance to say the I know everything about God but it isn't to say that what I know about Him is right. If I am not convinced that it is right then I don't really know it do I? that would be speculation. Now it is possible to cinvince me that what I thought I knew was wrong but until you can do that I must say that it is right. Otherwise no one can really know anything.

I think it's a dangerous way to think brother. Because just a few short years ago I knew that God gave man free will and election was based on foreknowledge. Now by the grace of God I'm not quite so ignorant. I think the kind of epistemic humility we're talking about is rather necessary to theology in general.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Our knowledge is limited certainly, but we can, without doubt, know what we know.

this is not true. the fact is that much of what we think and know is below the level of consciousness. reference to the memories brought back by something as simple as a smell is evidence for this.
plus i do not think what you wrote is what you really mean. rather than the phrase "know what we know" you probably mean "know what we know with a level of certainty"

to say the I (don't) know everything about God but it isn't to say that what I know about Him is right.

the first clause does not entail the second. you can have partial and partly untrue knowledge of anything. otherwise there would be no reason for unlearning and relearning things all the time, a fact that i am sure you are familiar with.

If I am not convinced that it is right then I don't really know it do I?

again you are confusing the strength of which you hold a belief with the truthfulness of this belief. there simply is no relationship between the two. "sincerity is no evidence for the truth of a proposition held"
otherwise we would all be LDS. *Grin*


Otherwise no one can really know anything.

again you are confusing knowledge and the process of knowing with exhaustive knowledge and with the certainty of that knowledge (justification) and with the strength of holding to a particular belief

there are lots of good epistemology books i could recommend for your consideration.

....

 

[Catholic Dude]

One must admit that he is wrong in at least some doctrines, otherwise he makes himself out to be one who fully understands a transcendent God, which is contradictory. As has been said, if you know which things you have wrong you correct them, if you don't you can't.

One should never admit they are wrong on some doctrines and turn around and teach, thats the road to confusion for who knows what is error and what is truth at that point?

It has nothing to do with fully understanding God, no human can do that. Rather the stuff that we do know, what has been established should be taught and anything else any type of speculation should be made clear its simply opinion.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

One should never admit they are wrong on some doctrines and turn around and teach, thats the road to confusion for who knows what is error and what is truth at that point?


that is the very point. the speaker knows he believes things that will prove to be false in the future, maybe even his future, however he is unable to, at the present time, identify which beliefs these erronous ones are (or partial beliefs, same problem)

case in point.
Calvin believed that he was right in participating in the execution of Servetus. i have yet to meet a calvinist that proposes the death penalty for blasphemy. fines, banishment yes. but not death. therefore when Calvin taught that the death penalty was appropriate for blasphemy, he was sincere and just as sincerely wrong.

....