Don't live for the miracle.

[Jesse Dornfeld]

It's not arrogance if you can back it up -- and God certainly seemed concerned that they could.

Genesis 11:6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."

...and He couldn't have that.

And that leaves us with all sorts of questions like, "what on earth did they know that God Willed this upon them?" and other such questions. Perhaps they were not so stupid after all and knew a great many things that we may not even know today. I guess that might be what happens when people can live for 300+ years and not die.

In any case... there's also the matter in which, even in their knowledge, God had to "come down" to see what they were doing. God is in control, rest assured, nothing will surprise Him.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

...and not a Biblically consistent one... we're talking about the same God who sabotaged the Tower of Babel because the humans were getting too uppity...

Yeah. Apparently heaven was only a few hundred feet above the ground in those days.

 

[TLK Valentine]

And that leaves us with all sorts of questions like, "what on earth did they know that God Willed this upon them?" and other such questions. Perhaps they were not so stupid after all and knew a great many things that we may not even know today. I guess that might be what happens when people can live for 300+ years and not die.

According to God, it's what happens when everyone gets together and speaks the same language... and he ought to know... He's God, after all.

History seems to have proved Him right...for hundreds of years in Europe, academia relied on one language in matters of law, science, medicine, religion... Latin.

And we got quite a bit accomplished.

In any case... there's also the matter in which, even in their knowledge, God had to "come down" to see what they were doing. God is in control, rest assured, nothing will surprise Him.

Babel is interesting because God acts out of character -- in any other event, God punishes people after they do something they shouldn't: either smiting an individual or dropping a plague on a naughty nation... that sort of thing.

This time, He's proactive -- He has to prevent the bad thing from happening. When regular people break from habits, it's suspicious; when an eternal and unchanging God does it, it's definitely worthy of investigation.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Babel is interesting because God acts out of character -- in any other event, God punishes people after they do something they shouldn't: either smiting an individual or dropping a plague on a naughty nation... that sort of thing.

This time, He's proactive -- He has to prevent the bad thing from happening. When regular people break from habits, it's suspicious; when an eternal and unchanging God does it, it's definitely worthy of investigation.

Not sure what tells you God isn't proactive in things all the time according to Christianity. Job is another example where God was per-emptive. towards humans. It's not holey unique.

We also don't know what the people of Babel actually did that made God do this. All we are talk is that nothing would be impossible for them if they continued on the same course.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Not sure what tells you God isn't proactive in things all the time according to Christianity. Job is another example where God was per-emptive. towards humans. It's not holey unique.

Where do you see God being pre-emptive in Job?

We also don't know what the people of Babel actually did that made God do this.

That's right -- we don't know because the Bible never tells us. And if you believe the Bible was inspired by God, it means we don't know because God never tells us.

It's not like the Bible to demonstrate God's divine punishment without at least explaining what they're being punished for. And if the crime being punished is kept secret, there's no deterrence.

All we are talk is that nothing would be impossible for them if they continued on the same course.

And how is that a bad thing that deserves punishment?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Where do you see God being pre-emptive in Job?

God was fully in control of Job's suffering and subsequent reimbursement.

That's right -- we don't know because the Bible never tells us. And if you believe the Bible was inspired by God, it means we don't know because God never tells us.

It's not like the Bible to demonstrate God's divine punishment without at least explaining what they're being punished for. And if the crime being punished is kept secret, there's no deterrence.

We don't know because we are not meant to know. On that much I agree.

And how is that a bad thing that deserves punishment?

Well, it's inferred from the context that pride swelled their ranks. That was the sin, it wasn't that they built a tall building. It was that they wanted to be equal with God. Same thing as Adam, same thing as the Roman empire, same thing as today.

 

[TLK Valentine]

God was fully in control of Job's suffering and subsequent reimbursement.

That's not what "pre-emptive" means.

We don't know because we are not meant to know. On that much I agree.

Which, again, would be very much out of character for both God and the Bible. Both are usually very explicit when it comes to which "thou shalt not..." the transgressor is violating when God delivers His punishment.

This time, as you say, we're not meant to know. If we're not meant to know not to do whatever it was they did, what was the point of including the story in the Bible at all?

(unless the story was included for a different reason...)

Well, it's inferred from the context that pride swelled their ranks. That was the sin, it wasn't that they built a tall building. It was that they wanted to be equal with God. Same thing as Adam, same thing as the Roman empire, same thing as today.

God's never been shy about saying it literally every other time in the Bible... why get coy here?

Especially since God doesn't say pride... He doesn't say that humanity will think they can accomplish anything, He says they will be able to accomplish anything.

We never said anything; God was being pre-emptive.

And if it's the same thing as today, does that mean another language mixup is due? Because with the study of linguistics being what it is, I don't think it would take nearly as long to sort it out if He tried it again.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Speaking of Babel, this made me chuckle:

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

That's not what "pre-emptive" means.

My point is that God pre-emptively tested Job so he could bless him later.

Which, again, would be very much out of character for both God and the Bible. Both are usually very explicit when it comes to which "thou shalt not..." the transgressor is violating when God delivers His punishment.

This time, as you say, we're not meant to know. If we're not meant to know not to do whatever it was they did, what was the point of including the story in the Bible at all?

(unless the story was included for a different reason...)

When looking at what the authors of the Bible wrote, we have to consider what the Biblical authors wanted us to get out of what they write. I think it's clear that the message is to not be prideful.

God's never been shy about saying it literally every other time in the Bible... why get coy here?

Especially since God doesn't say pride... He doesn't say that humanity will think they can accomplish anything, He says they will be able to accomplish anything.

We never said anything; God was being pre-emptive.

And if it's the same thing as today, does that mean another language mixup is due? Because with the study of linguistics being what it is, I don't think it would take nearly as long to sort it out if He tried it again.

God doesn't spell out a lot of things in the Bible. This should be pretty clear, but perhaps it is not to you.

Reading the intention of what is written is how exegesis is done. It might not say pride specifically, but that's what it is getting at conceptually.

I'm not sure why you are hung up on God being pre-emptive here. Sometimes God does things as a one time thing. Lots of example of that in the Bible.

As far as our society is concerned, there's plenty of ways God could cause trouble for us if He wanted to and it need not be mixing up our language.

 

[TLK Valentine]

My point is that God pre-emptively tested Job so he could bless him later.

Except there was nothing pre-emptive about it.

God tested Job because of a wager with Satan -- plus, you can't really say "God did it"; He let Satan do the wetwork.

It's right there in black and white: Job 1:6-12

Of course, we can safely say that God knew He was going to win the bet... He's God, after all... but the point was to illustrate it to Satan.

When looking at what the authors of the Bible wrote, we have to consider what the Biblical authors wanted us to get out of what they write. I think it's clear that the message is to not be prideful.

The Bible has never shied away from explicitly stating that message in any of dozens of other places; why be coy here?

Plus, pride is merely the belief in one's ability to do great things. These people weren't boasting, they were doing. It ain't pride if you can deliver the goods... and these people could.

God doesn't spell out a lot of things in the Bible. This should be pretty clear, but perhaps it is not to you.

But the message you're trying to get across, He spells out in explicit (sometimes graphic) detail in every instance except this one...

When an eternal and unchanging God changes, it's cause of curiosity.

Reading the intention of what is written is how exegesis is done. It might not say pride specifically, but that's what it is getting at conceptually.

So why didn't God do what He has done in every other similar situation? Punish them for their failure...

....unless of course, they weren't about to fail...

I'm not sure why you are hung up on God being pre-emptive here.

Because He's never done that before or since.

As I said, when the eternal and unchanging suddenly changes, it's bound to raise a few eyebrows.

Sometimes God does things as a one time thing. Lots of example of that in the Bible.

Where else does God break character?

As far as our society is concerned, there's plenty of ways God could cause trouble for us if He wanted to and it need not be mixing up our language.

This is true -- God could send all manners of calamities on us at any time...

....remind me why such a being is worthy of worship?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Where else does God break character?

I suspect this is the biggest hang up for you regarding this. I would suggest you watch one (or more) of these videos so you know what Christians believe about God.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=god+is+immutable

....remind me why such a being is worthy of worship?

Well, if we wrong God and He uses corrective measures to get us back in line, I'm not sure how that makes him an "evil God".

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

@TLK Valentine, I found this which shows that God was not actually Pre-Emptive.

 

[TLK Valentine]

@TLK Valentine, I found this which shows that God was not actually Pre-Emptive.

It's an interesting interpretation, to be sure. I'll buy it for now.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Well, if we wrong God and He uses corrective measures to get us back in line, I'm not sure how that makes him an "evil God".

I didn't say He was "evil," I just asked why such corrective measures to get us back in line make him worthy of worship.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I didn't say He was "evil," I just asked why such corrective measures to get us back in line make him worthy of worship.

Well, that would depend on what He wants to correct us to. I would say in large part, this would be God trying to make us more like Himself. And that would entail making us more like Jesus. So you have to decide if God making us more like Jesus would be a good thing or a bad thing.

 

[cvanwey]

Well, that would depend on what He wants to correct us to. I would say in large part, this would be God trying to make us more like Himself. And that would entail making us more like Jesus. So you have to decide if God making us more like Jesus would be a good thing or a bad thing.

@TLK Valentine is asking the question of if Jesus is worthy of worship?

You can attempt to follow, emulate, worship, or idolize mere mortals as well.

One usually does so if they simply want to be like that person, and/or respect that person immensely, and/or admire that person, and/or maybe even envy some of their character traits. You may also want to follow or 'worship' someone for which you do not even deem perfect or completely good - (like a movie star or other).

Hence, I do not know if deeming one 'good' or 'bad' is the standard for which renders someone worthy of worship.?.?...??

What makes Jesus worthy of worship exactly? Is it merely because if you don't, He will condemn you? Is it because He has super powers? Is it because He created you? Is it because He cloned Himself and had humans kill that clone to act as a loophole? Other?

 

[TLK Valentine]

@TLK Valentine is asking the question of if Jesus is worthy of worship?

Actually, I was asking about God, not Jesus.

Actually, I was referring to God, not Jesus. I accept that because Christians view them as two facets of a triune entity, some see them as interchangeable. I do not.

Jesus of Nazareth was, by all accounts, a fine, upright, and decent man, and if his moral philosophies were put into practice on a worldwide scale, the world would be a much better place for it.

Should he be admired, even imitated? Even as a nonbeliever, I can say yes.

Worshiped? If we're being honest here, the reason Christians worship Jesus is because he is God... a belief which, as a nonbeliever, I do not share.

You can attempt to follow, emulate, worship, or idolize mere mortals as well.

Which far too many do.

One usually does so if they simply want to be like that person, and/or respect that person immensely, and/or admire that person, and/or maybe even envy some of their character traits. You may also want to follow or 'worship' someone for which you do not even deem perfect or completely good - (like a movie star or other).[/quote]

Let's not conflate "imitate" with worship.

Hence, I do not know if deeming one 'good' or 'bad' is the standard for which renders someone worthy of worship.?.?...??

What makes Jesus worthy of worship exactly? Is it merely because if you don't, He will condemn you? Is it because He has super powers? Is it because He created you? Is it because He cloned Himself and had humans kill that clone to act as a loophole? Other?

Valid questions, but I'm asking that question of God, not of Jesus. I see them as separate entities, even if you don't.

 

[cvanwey]

@True Counterphobia

Would you care offering a response to post #16?

 

[cvanwey]

Jesus of Nazareth was, by all accounts, a fine, upright, and decent man, and if his moral philosophies were put into practice on a worldwide scale, the world would be a much better place for it.

Should he be admired, even imitated? Even as a nonbeliever, I can say yes.

I hate to disagree with you here, on this point.... If someone were to decide to adopt all of Jesus's teachings; such individuals would likely end up in swift economic ruins, completely supporting socialism, have everything taken from them - without any attempt in protecting themselves, etc... I do not see many Christians, whom give up virtually all they own, and/or always offer the other cheek when stricken, and/or offer such thieves the rest of their stuff as well, etc...

So yes, it's a great fantasy, in theory... But seems much more like a fairy tale, verses reality. Seems like we need to be extremely selective, when opting to be 'more like Jesus."

But hey... What do I know

 

[TLK Valentine]

I hate to disagree with you here, on this point.... If someone were to decide to adopt all of Jesus's teachings; such individuals would likely end up in swift economic ruins, completely supporting socialism, have everything taken from them - without any attempt in protecting themselves, etc... I do not see many Christians, whom give up virtually all they own, and/or always offer the other cheek when stricken, and/or offer such thieves the rest of their stuff as well, etc...

So yes, it's a great fantasy, in theory... But seems much more like a fairy tale, verses reality. Seems like we need to be extremely selective, when opting to be 'more like Jesus."

But hey... What do I know

What indeed?

I stand by my statement about Jesus of Nazareth, but remembering what I said about a "worldwide scale," I add this caveat: it only works if everyone puts his teachings into practice. Otherwise, it all falls down sooner or later.

"Men who are good all of the time will come to ruin from those who are not good. Therefore, it is necessary for a Prince to know how not to be good, and to use this skill as necessary." -- Niccolo Machiavelli.