Don't live for the miracle.

[All Becomes New]

Let's pretend for a moment that miracles in the Bible were done for a specific time, at a specific place, for a specific purpose, by God, but that these ceased shortly after or when the Apostles died.

How would that effect how you approach reading the Bible?

Alternatively, what if miracles that happened in the Bible were done for a specific time, at a specific place, for a specific purpose, by God, with the qualifier that miracles still happen today, just to a much less rate of frequency.

How would that effect how you approach reading the Bible?

Open discussion for Christians and Atheists.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I thought atheists did not believe in miracles...

 

[Jeshu]

i don't believe for one moment that miracles are less now than in the olden days. i have seen close to a dozen in my life time alone.

The bible was written by only a few believers, so we hear about a few miracles they saw in their life time. i'm sure if we had access to all believers lives today we would hear a lot more about the miracles God worked in their lives.

However i agree with you we should not live for the miracles or base our faith on those, as if miracles are going to save us, or the only way to know that God is true.

i think knowledge of sin over against the holiness of God is more needed than seeing miracles to come to a lasting faith.

Peace.

 

[JohnClay]

i don't believe for one moment that miracles are less now than in the olden days. i have seen close to a dozen in my life time alone.....

There are also epic miracles...

e.g. the parting of the Red Sea, Joshua 10:13 ("The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day"), Matthew 27:52-53 ("and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people"), the fishes and the loaves...

 

[Lost4words]

Our faith should never be based on if miracles still happen or not.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I agree with @Jeshu . We should still see miracles happening today. There's nothing in the Bible saying that miracles should cease with the era of the Bible, and we have a rich history, right up until the present day, of Christians reporting miracles happening - sometimes quite astounding ones.

So the question that naturally follows is: if miracles are still happening, why aren't we seeing any of them?
No doubt some of them happen in circumstances where they would leave no record. But we should, in this age where virtually every human past childhood is carrying a video-recording device, be seeing at least some evidence of them. But we don't.
It makes you wonder - why not?

 

[com7fy8]

If God has stopped doing miracles like we read that Jesus did . . . I need to pray and submit to God and do exactly all that He pleases to do with me.

If God does do miracles nowadays like Jesus did . . . I need to pray and submit to God and do exactly all that He pleases to do with me.

I understand that Jesus did healings in which a person's body was changed instantly to have bodily tissue which the person did not have, moments before the miracle. Ones with leprosy gained what I would call created tissue; it did not grow back over time. Maimed people became whole; I understand this could mean like if a person has a body twisted with cerebral palsy, and Jesus changes the person's body into a perfectly formed body, in less than a moment, right before the eyes of unbelievers as well as believers.

No one does healings like this, on TV, that I have seen. I might have heard one report that someone got a damaged back healed.

But God is able at any moment to do any miracle.

And if He doesn't, right now He can keep changing His children into the image of Jesus. Many saw Christ's miracles, by the way, but they kept on in unbelief, and the disciples kept on fighting among themselves about who would be the greatest, or other things wrong they did > I mean, they kept on living wrong, even after seeing such miracles, and after Jesus had them working miracles.

And it is possible that ones on both sides of the ongoing miracles argument can be failing to change into the image of Jesus. They might never say a word about this. I mean, miracles could have attention which Jesus does not want miracles to get. To me, it seems that God's attention is to changing us into the image of Jesus, and this is the focus of scripture, and therefore is the focus and ongoing result of our Apostle Paul's message and ministry > Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:28-29.

So, we need to submit to God, in any case, so He has our attention where He wants our attention. And discover all He has us doing in sharing with Him and one another.

So, what if an atheist saw a miracle which was physical and obviously not scientifically possible > like a body having major disfigurement in less than a moment changing so it is perfectly formed? Possibly, certain atheists would demand to know why only that person was healed and not all people with cerebral palsy. Other atheists might come to trust in Jesus.

Because each person is unique; what each one of us would do would be unique, and I'll bet some number of us don't know what we would do

 

[Larniavc]

i'm sure if we had access to all believers lives today we would hear a lot more about the miracles God worked in their lives.

We kind of do. In a way.

With the ability for many people in developed nations to record in high definition the things that they see we have to wonder why we don’t see miracles happen in real time.

 

[Larniavc]

How would that effect how you approach reading the Bible?

When I read the Bible many moons ago I did not take a stance on the time frame in which miracles happened.

It never entered my head as far as I remember.

 

[Saint Steven]

Let's pretend for a moment that miracles in the Bible were done for a specific time, at a specific place, for a specific purpose, by God, but that these ceased shortly after or when the Apostles died.

How would that effect how you approach reading the Bible?

Alternatively, what if miracles that happened in the Bible were done for a specific time, at a specific place, for a specific purpose, by God, with the qualifier that miracles still happen today, just to a much less rate of frequency.

How would that effect how you approach reading the Bible?

Open discussion for Christians and Atheists.

For those who aren't aware, this is basically a comparison between the mindsets of Cessationism and Continuationism. Opposing Christian views about whether the miracle gifts were "sign" gifts only for a specific period of time (the Apostolic age), or whether they have continued after the age of the Apostles.

The mindset of Cessationism doesn't explain the value of first Corinthians chapters twelve to fourteen. About the manifestations (gifts) of the Holy Spirit. Why do we have such specific instructions if the miracle gifts (or any manifestations, for that matter) ceased prior to the assembling of the biblical canon?

The mindset of Continuationism doesn't explain why miracles happen so seldomly today. Didn't Jesus say we would do greater things than he had been doing? We have yet to see that day. It seems that is still in the pioneering phase. Why?

John 14:12 NIV
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

[Ophiolite]

Let's pretend for a moment that miracles in the Bible were done for a specific time, at a specific place, for a specific purpose, by God, but that these ceased shortly after or when the Apostles died.

How would that effect how you approach reading the Bible?

Alternatively, what if miracles that happened in the Bible were done for a specific time, at a specific place, for a specific purpose, by God, with the qualifier that miracles still happen today, just to a much less rate of frequency.

How would that effect how you approach reading the Bible?

Since my reading of the Bible is the antithesis of literal I have no issue with the concept of miracles. Thus neither of your scenarios would have, or could have, any impact upon my reading of the Bible.

 

[Saint Steven]

i don't believe for one moment that miracles are less now than in the olden days. i have seen close to a dozen in my life time alone.

The bible was written by only a few believers, so we hear about a few miracles they saw in their life time. i'm sure if we had access to all believers lives today we would hear a lot more about the miracles God worked in their lives.

However i agree with you we should not live for the miracles or base our faith on those, as if miracles are going to save us, or the only way to know that God is true.

i think knowledge of sin over against the holiness of God is more needed than seeing miracles to come to a lasting faith.

Peace.

I think we overlook daily miracles and only count the extraordinary events as such. Even our next breath is a miracle.

 

[Saint Steven]

If God has stopped doing miracles like we read that Jesus did . . . I need to pray and submit to God and do exactly all that He pleases to do with me.

If God does do miracles nowadays like Jesus did . . . I need to pray and submit to God and do exactly all that He pleases to do with me.

I understand that Jesus did healings in which a person's body was changed instantly to have bodily tissue which the person did not have, moments before the miracle. Ones with leprosy gained what I would call created tissue; it did not grow back over time. Maimed people became whole; I understand this could mean like if a person has a body twisted with cerebral palsy, and Jesus changes the person's body into a perfectly formed body, in less than a moment, right before the eyes of unbelievers as well as believers.

No one does healings like this, on TV, that I have seen. I might have heard one report that someone got a damaged back healed.

But God is able at any moment to do any miracle.

And if He doesn't, right now He can keep changing His children into the image of Jesus. Many saw Christ's miracles, by the way, but they kept on in unbelief, and the disciples kept on fighting among themselves about who would be the greatest, or other things wrong they did > I mean, they kept on living wrong, even after seeing such miracles, and after Jesus had them working miracles.

And it is possible that ones on both sides of the ongoing miracles argument can be failing to change into the image of Jesus. They might never say a word about this. I mean, miracles could have attention which Jesus does not want miracles to get. To me, it seems that God's attention is to changing us into the image of Jesus, and this is the focus of scripture, and therefore is the focus and ongoing result of our Apostle Paul's message and ministry > Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:28-29.

So, we need to submit to God, in any case, so He has our attention where He wants our attention. And discover all He has us doing in sharing with Him and one another.

So, what if an atheist saw a miracle which was physical and obviously not scientifically possible > like a body having major disfigurement in less than a moment changing so it is perfectly formed? Possibly, certain atheists would demand to know why only that person was healed and not all people with cerebral palsy. Other atheists might come to trust in Jesus.

Because each person is unique; what each one of us would do would be unique, and I'll bet some number of us don't know what we would do

Good post. Thanks.
We need to understand that Jesus did not do his miracles in his deity, but rather in his humanity. Otherwise, how could he expect us to do miracles?

Matthew 10:8 NIV
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

 

[Saint Steven]

There are also epic miracles...

e.g. the parting of the Red Sea, Joshua 10:13 ("The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day"), Matthew 27:52-53 ("and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people"), the fishes and the loaves...

This is key to understanding miracles. God uses extraordinary means to help us.
Therefore we need to:
1) Depend on him for the solution to our needs.
(rather than make specific requests for what WE want)
2) Be ready to move with him to come along side of what he is doing. The "do nothing" approach. See below.

John 5:19 NIV
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

 

[Saint Steven]

Finding a parking space downtown. Is that a miracle? (seems so)
I have asked God to help me with that. And it worked. Or... ???

 

[cvanwey]

Let's pretend for a moment that miracles in the Bible were done for a specific time, at a specific place, for a specific purpose, by God, but that these ceased shortly after or when the Apostles died.

How would that effect how you approach reading the Bible?

Alternatively, what if miracles that happened in the Bible were done for a specific time, at a specific place, for a specific purpose, by God, with the qualifier that miracles still happen today, just to a much less rate of frequency.

How would that effect how you approach reading the Bible?

Open discussion for Christians and Atheists.

I don't know that it would have any impact? The resurrection only happened once, right?

When reading the Bible, I examine the said claimed miracles, and ask how probable and likely it was that these specific miracles actually took place. And when I do, or have debates/discussion(s), many/most/all roads about these (specific one time said events) lead to 'faith' as their mechanism for 'truth'.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So the question that naturally follows is: if miracles are still happening, why aren't we seeing any of them?

We are...

 

[Carl Emerson]

We need to understand that Jesus did not do his miracles in his deity, but rather in his humanity. Otherwise, how could he expect us to do miracles?

Matthew 10:8 NIV
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Right there we have a problem - is this activity described 'man centred' or 'God centred' ??

Celebrity ministries seem to be man centred around a culture of hype and self confidence.

This may account for the limitation on such displays of God's power to manifest.

 

[All Becomes New]

Our faith should never be based on if miracles still happen or not.

I agree with this. This is exactly the point I was trying to make.

Let me try and find an article on the subject I read some time ago. It talks about a miracle that happened, but that miracles themselves shouldn't be the basis for our belief.

Why Did God Heal Me? Lessons from an Unexpected Miracle

Here is also something to consider:

Why Do We See So Few Miracles Today?

 

[All Becomes New]

I thought atheists did not believe in miracles...

They generally don't because they feel we don't see them today. I agree with your other post that we do in fact see miracles today. Think of it as a way to frame the idea of miracles in different ways.