donating

[ashout]

you need to put a picture up dave

 

[Goinheix]

Until Now I have never been taught or told that I should only give to help My Christian brothers and sisters.............and not give to the heathen or the unsaved as You are trying to get me to swallow............I will only debate with You on this one last time as I would like to here from You regarding the two recorded times that Jesus Himself fed the Hungry Multitudes with a few loaves and a few small fishes.......I await your reply regarding the benevolence of Christ.........Dave

The fact that you have had bad teacher does not change what the NT and Bible say. You have swalow a lot of garbage from your false teacher seeking after your money. As it has been proved many times (read above) the NT is anly talking about helping other christians, and there is not a single mention to helping the people of the world.

Concerning the feeding of multitudes.

Jesus went to the desert for 40 days to found out how to do his ministery. Before going to the desert he tried to be crucified (John) but failed. That makes him to take some time to ponder and search. Doing that, hi found the answer in the Scriptures. The answer is is Issaias and he read it at a sinagoge as soon he finish his 40 day.

During the 40 days, Jesus was tempted by Satan who was proposing him several (3) metoth of "wining" the world.
One was jumping from a high place amuzing everybody. That temptation was repeated e times. The time at the deset, when jesus was push to a clift, and at the croos when somebody told him to get down by himself.
The other was worshiping Satan itself, and that temptation was repeated two more times. Only that at this very moment I cant tell you when and how.
The third temptation on how to carry out his ministry was by feeding people. Specifically converting the stones into bread. And that temptation was repeated two more times. The two more times Jesus feeded the multitude. But Jesus did understan the trick and told the crow "you follow me because I am feeding you" and quit doing it.

Feeding the multitud is an example on how clever and persistant is Satan in making us to fail in the honest believe of being doing the right.

Today christians concerned in feeding (or helping in any way) the multitudes did not understand how Satan is working and what God wants from us.

The 2 feedings passages tels us not to helppeople from the world. The Gospel was not abot that in times of Jesus and is not about that today. Just focus on the Gospel and do not waist time and money in other matters as Satan ios telling you.

 

[oneofchrists]

I believe Sir that You are the one that has been falsely taught and I don't see the connection with Jesus in the desert being tempted by the devil in three instances haveing anything to do with the feeding of the hungry multitudes........You still have not explained that to me in a satisfactory way...............Try again because I am slow to catch on........God Bless You Sir ................Dave

 

[Goinheix]

In the desert Satan tempted Jesus with a way of making his mionistry: by feeding multitudes. Satan did tempt Jesus three times, all three times in the desert. The result of feeding multitudes in the desert is having multitudes following you. But the result of the Good News shall be not multitudes but converted people. Jesus refuses the frist temptation during the 40 days. Satan tried again during the minitery taking advantage of Jesus having misericordy of the multitudes. The result of Jesus listen to his hart was multitudes following him. The thirth time it was the same; but Jesus figure out the trick: people is not following Jesus for his teaches but for his food. And them Jesus quit feeding multitudes.

If you read the what happens after the second feeding, when Jesus didnt recieve the multitudes because they were after food, you will understand. Satan is still doing the same temptation to the modern church: feed the poor people. But Jesus have already teaches us that is not the way to bring the Good News. Feeding poor people seems OK since is a respond to our misericordy. What can be wrong? The wrong is the outcome, multitudes seeking for hepl but not interested in the Gospel. The wrong is many christians serving the poor people of the world brlieving (wrongly) to be servicing God and the Gospel. The wrong is a lot of time, money and energy not being well steward, and human (christians) resourses out of anouncing the Gospel because are too busy helping people from the world.

 

[oneofchrists]

In the desert Satan tempted Jesus with a way of making his mionistry: by feeding multitudes. Satan did tempt Jesus three times, all three times in the desert. The result of feeding multitudes in the desert is having multitudes following you. But the result of the Good News shall be not multitudes but converted people. Jesus refuses the frist temptation during the 40 days. Satan tried again during the minitery taking advantage of Jesus having misericordy of the multitudes. The result of Jesus listen to his hart was multitudes following him. The thirth time it was the same; but Jesus figure out the trick: people is not following Jesus for his teaches but for his food. And them Jesus quit feeding multitudes.

If you read the what happens after the second feeding, when Jesus didnt recieve the multitudes because they were after food, you will understand. Satan is still doing the same temptation to the modern church: feed the poor people. But Jesus have already teaches us that is not the way to bring the Good News. Feeding poor people seems OK since is a respond to our misericordy. What can be wrong? The wrong is the outcome, multitudes seeking for hepl but not interested in the Gospel. The wrong is many christians serving the poor people of the world brlieving (wrongly) to be servicing God and the Gospel. The wrong is a lot of time, money and energy not being well steward, and human (christians) resourses out of anouncing the Gospel because are too busy helping people from the world.

I am so sorry sir while I do agree that the main reason for some of the multitude was to be fed that still does not take away Christ's will to be benevolent and serve the Hungry 4000 in Matthew 15 32-39.......what do You have to say about verse
32. Then Jesus called His disciples unto Him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude because they have been with me three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting lest they may faint in the way. NKJV........PLease again I just do not see your argument regarding Christian versus Non Christian and how we should donate or give ...Dave

 

[RandoMWoN]

In the desert Satan tempted Jesus with a way of making his mionistry: by feeding multitudes. Satan did tempt Jesus three times, all three times in the desert. The result of feeding multitudes in the desert is having multitudes following you. But the result of the Good News shall be not multitudes but converted people. Jesus refuses the frist temptation during the 40 days. Satan tried again during the minitery taking advantage of Jesus having misericordy of the multitudes. The result of Jesus listen to his hart was multitudes following him. The thirth time it was the same; but Jesus figure out the trick: people is not following Jesus for his teaches but for his food. And them Jesus quit feeding multitudes.

If you read the what happens after the second feeding, when Jesus didnt recieve the multitudes because they were after food, you will understand. Satan is still doing the same temptation to the modern church: feed the poor people. But Jesus have already teaches us that is not the way to bring the Good News. Feeding poor people seems OK since is a respond to our misericordy. What can be wrong? The wrong is the outcome, multitudes seeking for hepl but not interested in the Gospel. The wrong is many christians serving the poor people of the world brlieving (wrongly) to be servicing God and the Gospel. The wrong is a lot of time, money and energy not being well steward, and human (christians) resourses out of anouncing the Gospel because are too busy helping people from the world.

The fact that you have had bad teacher does not change what the NT and Bible say. You have swalow a lot of garbage from your false teacher seeking after your money. As it has been proved many times (read above) the NT is anly talking about helping other christians, and there is not a single mention to helping the people of the world.

Proverbs 3:
The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.


Jesus was also known to be sinless, you're saying that he sinned? That he gave into temptation?

---

Feeding poor people seems OK since is a respond to our misericordy. What can be wrong?

Proverbs 29:7
The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern.


Proverbs 22:9
A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor.


Surely compassion for the poor is what is intended.

---


Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Matthew 5:32
[SIZE=+4]Give to him who keeps on begging from you, and do not turn away from him who would borrow from you.
[/SIZE]

Surely this applies to even the worst of people? Compassion for all? Aren't we ALL gods people?


---


I certainly do agree there is personal "human" giving; Giving under compulsion, plans to manipulate or for personal gratification is what I'd say you're trying to get at.

Christian Giving; Being a generous and cheerful giver expecting NOTHING in return.

 

[Goinheix]

I am so sorry sir while I do agree that the main reason for some of the multitude was to be fed that still does not take away Christ's will to be benevolent and serve the Hungry 4000 in Matthew 15 32-39.......what do You have to say about verse
32. Then Jesus called His disciples unto Him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude because they have been with me three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting lest they may faint in the way. NKJV........PLease again I just do not see your argument regarding Christian versus Non Christian and how we should donate or give ...Dave

For some reason you can not swallow my good food; not that you are not ready for something more than milk; probably you got use to junk food. If you dont want to understand my answer, I will give you a jank answer:

Romans 12:13 say that we have to care for God´s people. At the time of Jesus, the Jew were God´s pèople, and Jesus was taking care of God´s people. Notice that Jesus refuses several times to help others than God´s people. That is what I am saying all the time: take care only for God´s people and only when the need is in front of you . As Jesus did here.

That is the junk answer you need.

 

[Goinheix]

Jesus was also known to be sinless, you're saying that he sinned? That he gave into temptation?

No. Jesus didnt sin. To feed the multitudes 2 times was not the temptation. The people was in the desert and hungry...and Jesus solved an specific situation. The temptation - as I explained above - was to win the people by feeding them. When Jesus realiced that his actions were at the beginin of such ministry, he stoppet righ there. He never gave into the temptation of developing a ministery of feeding people.

But those that use the church or the christians money to make a ministery of help to the people are giving into temptation and are in sin.

 

[Goinheix]

Surely this applies to even the worst of people? Compassion for all? Aren't we ALL gods people?

If we ALL are God´s people, who is not?

 

[Goinheix]

Proverbs 3:
The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.

Proverbs 29:7
The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern.

Proverbs 22:9
A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor.

Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Matthew 5:32
[SIZE=+4]Give to him who keeps on begging from you, and do not turn away from him who would borrow from you.
[/SIZE]

Where do you read that we have to have to do a ministery of giving for the world? Christianity is not being greed bat generous. Paul is saying that we must care for OUR withous and OUR poor. That is not a news. Jew care of Jew, and Christians care for Christians.

Now pay special attention to Matt 5:32. "begging from you", "who would borrow from you" We have to give when the need knock our door, when it is in frent of us. Chrictians shall care for Chritians in need that are infront of us.

 

[Goinheix]

I certainly do agree there is personal "human" giving; Giving under compulsion, plans to manipulate or for personal gratification is what I'd say you're trying to get at.

Christian Giving; Being a generous and cheerful giver expecting NOTHING in return.

Excellent human thinking and human speech. Can you provide biblical support?

 

[Goinheix]

.PLease again I just do not see your argument regarding Christian versus Non Christian and how we should donate or give ...Dave

I am not talking about christians vs non-christians. I am talking about chritians pro christians. I am also talking about givig to the non-christians what they need, what they dont have...the Gospel. If you enroll an army you shal not get involved in any other busines. feeding non-christians body has the price of not feeding theyrs soul.

 

[RickardoHolmes]

You asked for Scripture on Charity? Well Here it is:

They feed with food the needy wretch, the orphan, and the prisoner, for love of Him, saying, "We wish for no reward nor thanks from you." Qur'an 76.8-9

Charity--to be moved at the sight of the thirsty, the hungry, and the miserable and to offer relief to them out of pity--is the spring of virtue. Kundakunda, Pancastikaya 137

Relieve people in distress as speedily as you must release a fish from a dry rill [lest he die]. Deliver people from danger as quickly as you must free a sparrow from a tight noose. Be compassionate to orphans and relieve widows. Respect the old and help the poor. tao - Tract of the Quiet Way

If there is among you a poor man, one of your brethren, in any of your towns within your land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him, and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be.... You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him; because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and the poor, in the land. Deuteronomy 15.7-11


There are three kinds of persons existing in the world: one is like a drought, one who rains locally, and one who pours down everywhere.

How is a person like a drought? He gives nothing to all alike, not giving food and drink, clothing and vehicle, flowers, scents and unguents, bed, lodging and light, neither to recluses and brahmins nor to wretched and needy beggars. In this way, a person is like a drought.
How is a person like a local rainfall? He is a giver to some, but to others he gives not.... In this way, a person is like a local rain- fall.
How does a person rain down everywhere? He gives to all, be they recluses and brahmins or wretched, needy beggars; he is a giver of food and drink, clothing... lodging and lights. In this way a person rains down everywhere. Itivuttaka 65
When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at his left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, "Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me." Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?" And the King will answer them, "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me." Then he will say to those at his left hand, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." Then the they also will answer, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?" Then he will answer them, "Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me." And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matthew 25.31-46

On the day of judgment God Most High will say, "Son of Adam, I was sick and you did not visit Me." He will reply, "My Lord, how could I visit Thee when Thou art the Lord of the Universe!" He will say, "Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was ill and yet you did not visit him? Did you not know that if you had visited him you soon would have found Me with him?" Hadith of Muslim

Even a poor man who himself subsists on charity should give charity. Talmud, Gittin 7b

He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise. Luke 3.11

Well, there you have it. Practically Every Major Religion on this planet teaches and provides for charity. It is a "Universal Truth" You may say..... It is something that religion teaches because it allows for a society to survive by showing the value and the sanctity of human life.

I am told that the money we are going to be given to the aforementioned congregation will be spent on the needy who may or may not be Christians. They are something we all are first: Human Beings. We are all part of the Human Race, whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, agnoostic, New-Ager....whatever label we choose to wear, we are the Human Family First and Foremost. I really don't care WHO comes and eats out of need because of my money. What I do care about is that years from now, many of these people, when hopefully not so destitute, when the econopmy turns around and they are back to working and being happier, will look back on this year and say "Wehn we were hungry and starving, the Christians at such and such Methodist church fed us and clothed us. They did the work Christ would command them to do" THAT I care about.

 

[Goinheix]

If there is among you a poor man, one of your brethren, in any of your towns within your land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him, and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be.... You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him; because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and the poor, in the land. Deuteronomy 15.7-11

I will focus only in christian scriptures: the Bible. I will not answer, because I do not care, other readings fron strange religions.

Deuteronomy 15:7-11 it is clear. The object of the charity is th pwn God´s people; in this cas the Jew. The object of the charity is the needed in you own tow; those case in front of you.

As I am saying and repeating and repeating again and again. It is not biblical to have a ministry for helping needed people from the world. That is an activity for human organizations, not for the church. The church has the mision to spread the Good New, not getting involved in any other distractions. Chtistians have to give when it is necesary, not to live giving as a normal action.

 

[RickardoHolmes]

I will focus only in christian scriptures: the Bible. I will not answer, because I do not care, other readings fron strange religions.

Deuteronomy 15:7-11 it is clear. The object of the charity is th pwn God´s people; in this cas the Jew. The object of the charity is the needed in you own tow; those case in front of you.

As I am saying and repeating and repeating again and again. It is not biblical to have a ministry for helping needed people from the world. That is an activity for human organizations, not for the church. The church has the mision to spread the Good New, not getting involved in any other distractions. Chtistians have to give when it is necesary, not to live giving as a normal action.

If you are talking from a "religious" point of view, or your interpretation of some religion's writings, then you are already down the wrong road.
Religion is the problem, not the answer. Put religion aside, look to God, that which is Transcendant and Above everyone and everything. Therein, the brotherhood and fellowship of Love and Peace, Loving thy Neighbor includes charity and Love to ALL , not just to some subscribers of some particular religius faith.

My Love, my Charity, my means for such works, as available, are open to all, regardless of faith, brand, or label.

 

[Goinheix]

If you are talking from a "religious" point of view, or your interpretation of some religion's writings, then you are already down the wrong road.
Religion is the problem, not the answer. Put religion aside, look to God, that which is Transcendant and Above everyone and everything. Therein, the brotherhood and fellowship of Love and Peace, Loving thy Neighbor includes charity and Love to ALL , not just to some subscribers of some particular religius faith.

My Love, my Charity, my means for such works, as available, are open to all, regardless of faith, brand, or label.

Your word are a great example of what I am saying all the time. Charity is not at all a christian atitude or practice. Charity is inherent (belongs to) to all humans regardeles if christian, atheis, or other religion. If we speak about charity in conection with christians, we arrive to the same conclusion you do, charity is part of christian religion. That is, charity is not part of Christ teaching, is not part of Moses Law, is not part of the OT as is not part of the NT; but it is only part of religious christians.

Charity to other than a christian infront of you is only part of the road of christian religious leading nowhere, wich is not part of the road who is Jesus taking us to eternal life. We can walk on Jesus Christ without any need of charity other than for christians in need infront of us.

If this thread is about donating as a human atitude or as a religious issue, I am in the wrong place. If this thread is about donating as supposely the Bible teaches (wich does not) I am in the right place.

 

[dies-l]

Goinheix,

It seems that you do not believe that Christians are specifically called to give of our resources or to serve others. I would ask, then, do you believe that we as Christians are called to do or to be anything? If so, what? Please, explain with Scripture.

 

[Goinheix]

Goinheix,

It seems that you do not believe that Christians are specifically called to give of our resources or to serve others. I would ask, then, do you believe that we as Christians are called to do or to be anything? If so, what? Please, explain with Scripture.

It is not about what I believe but about what I understand.

I understand that christians are not called to play football, to study in law school, to eat fry potatoes. But there is not any verse in all the Bible saying what christians are not call to. Instead, there is clear texts in the NT concerning what are we call to. We are call to grow in Christ, to resemble Him more and more, doing his teach and obeying His commands, without getting involved in any busynes or activity that distrac or deviate us from our Great Command.

Your question is deep, and my answer is shalow, but perhaps it is enough for you to see how I understand christian life.

 

[dies-l]

It is not about what I believe but about what I understand.

The hope is always that we will come to Truth. But, we all come at it with imperfect beliefs and understandings. And, I hope that by sharing our thoughts and beliefs, we can come closer to understanding Truth

We are call to grow in Christ, to resemble Him more and more, doing his teach and obeying His commands, without getting involved in any busynes or activity that distrac or deviate us from our Great Command.

And, just to be clear, by the Great Command, you mean "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your strength" and "love your neighbor as yourself"?

Your question is deep, and my answer is shalow, but perhaps it is enough for you to see how I understand christian life.

I think your answer is a good start.

 

[Goinheix]

What I know for the Great Command is going to the world making disciples and baptize them.

Offcourse we have to love. And aloudme to tell you something I did discover. Every teach of Jesus is given trhree times:
1 We have to love. Love who? God How? with all....
2 We have to love. Love who? Our neighbor How? as ourself
3 We have to love. Love who? each other (christians) How? as Jesus did.