Doing greater deeds than Jesus?

jasonMalloy1999 · Apr 17, 2020

bling said:
Not sure what you are asking?

does that mean unbaptized christians go
to hell as im saved but unbaptized as its impossible

Guojing · Apr 17, 2020

Strong in Him said:
He ministered primarily to Jews.
He did not exclude, or refuse to heal, Gentiles.

I didn't say he excluded or refuse to heal them. I said there were 2 exceptions, but exceptions don't go against the rule.

Okay, I will leave it to the TS to discuss that reply I made about his question.

HatGuy · Apr 17, 2020

Guojing said:
but the discussion answers your point, as I have mentioned in my first reply to you

The Jews required signs and wonders, but we don’t. Hence what Jesus said there about greater works was directed to the Jews only.

the book of John was to record the 7 signs of Jesus did to convince the Jews he was their messiah John 20:31.

If you read John 5-7, the works Jesus did were all linked to such signs

Hmmm.

What I would take from this (or did take from a further look last night) is that the Jews serve as an example of why miraculous healings etc. are *lesser* works. They didn't work. Despite all the miracles, the Jews largely still didn't believe. So even though some did believe, most didn't. Therefore, the *greater* works are works that are beyond healings etc. but refers to the miracle of all now having access to God, even the gentiles; the miracle of salvation.

It's true that Jesus ministered to the Jews, but it's equally true that He kept telling them that the gentiles were about to be included. This is all over his parables. It starts with John the Baptist saying that God can raise up sons from Stones.

Matthew 3:9
"don’t think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that God can raise up children for Abraham from these stones! "

Saint JOHN · Apr 17, 2020

All Jesus taught and died for is that people should receive the Holy spirit .. God is Love.. to give God to a person (eternal life)(the Holy Spirit)(true love , not emotionalism) is the Greatest work that can be done ( everything else is temporary )

Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

this is what happens upon recieving the Holy Ghost (Spirit)...his way !!

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

you get them all

beware of false bretheren who say you dont need them or make lame excuses..they are anti God..anti christ ,not saying the same as he..not confessing Jesus. The blind leeding the blind...

acts 2v38 etc.........

Saint JOHN · Apr 17, 2020

All Jesus taught and died for is that people should receive the Holy spirit .. God is Love.. to give God to a person (eternal life)(the Holy Spirit)(true love , not emotionalism) is the Greatest work that can be done ( everything else is temporary )

Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

this is what happens upon recieving the Holy Ghost (Spirit)...his way !!

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

you get them all

beware of false bretheren who say you dont need them or make lame excuses..they are anti God..anti christ ,not saying the same as he..not confessing Jesus. The blind leeding the blind...

acts 2v38 etc.........

Guojing · Apr 17, 2020

HatGuy said:
Hmmm.

What I would take from this (or did take from a further look last night) is that the Jews serve as an example of why miraculous healings etc. are *lesser* works. They didn't work. Despite all the miracles, the Jews largely still didn't believe. So even though some did believe, most didn't. Therefore, the *greater* works are works that are beyond healings etc. but refers to the miracle of all now having access to God, even the gentiles; the miracle of salvation.

It's true that Jesus ministered to the Jews, but it's equally true that He kept telling them that the gentiles were about to be included. This is all over his parables. It starts with John the Baptist saying that God can raise up sons from Stones.

Matthew 3:9
"don’t think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that God can raise up children for Abraham from these stones! "

Yes, the 7 signs recorded by John, the final one, the resurrection of Lazarus, led to so many Jews accepting him as the Messiah, until the leaders knew they had to stop Jesus from doing anymore

45 Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.

“What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.”

When Paul said the Jews required a sign, he was certainly not complimenting them.

For us non-Jews, we are not to look for signs. Paul instructed us to walk by faith and not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7

BNR32FAN · Apr 17, 2020

Ricky M said:
The issue I have with that is it's all too obvious that millions of people can do more volume than one person can. That is such an obvious given, I can't see Jesus having to make the point. Unless He thought we were that oblivious.

But Jesus is not speaking to all believers He’s speaking to His 11 faithful apostles. So it could mean that each of them would do more works than Him or all of them collectively.

bling · Apr 17, 2020

jasonMalloy1999 said:
does that mean unbaptized christians go
to hell as im saved but unbaptized as its impossible

Water does not "save" you.
But why not be baptized fore the benefits it does provide and might provide?
There is also the issue of refusing to be baptized, which we do not know the results?

Daniel Martinovich · Apr 17, 2020

HatGuy said:
Hi guys,

In John 14:12, Jesus says this:

"I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these, because I am going to the Father." (NET)

I understand that Him "going to the Father" implies that He will send His Spirit and empower us.

But, my question is: it seems to me no one has really DONE the kind of deeds / works Jesus did, never mind GREATER works.

So what is Jesus saying here? Thoughts?

Go!

He is setting out a standard of possibilities that destroys the arguments of nay sayers. Simple as that. Doesn’t matter if no one has or no one thinks any one person has fulfilled this. Jesus points out what is available to mankind. Not what mankind might have at any given moment.

Bob Crowley · Apr 17, 2020

It's one of those sayings of Christ that's rather hard to accept.

You know, telling mountains to cast themselves into the sea.

If we were going to do greater things, we would have to multiply loaves and fishes for a huge crowd, starting with practically nothing. Raise the dead, heal the sick, deformed, deaf, blind and lepers, all supernaturally. We'd have to still a storm by telling it to shut up; kill a tree overnight without using any means other than the spoken word. We'd have to walk on water.

We'd have to go whiter than white while a voice spoke out of a cloud, without using a dribble of Omo. Evade an angry mob which wanted to throw us over a cliff. Intuitively know the name of a person hiding up a Sycamore tree. And all the rest.

Keep our identity hidden while walking and talking for miles with two blokes who knew us very well, and only reveal who we were as we were about to part. Materialise in a room and then disappear again. Start a fire on a beach to cook some fish, but with no fire starting materials.

And hardest of all, know exactly where to throw our net to catch the blasted fish...

ZNP · Apr 17, 2020

I think the entire book of James addresses this point. I have shared from my own experience as a teacher in NYC HS on my blog, I put up a podcast on iTunes going through this verse by verse and share the link on my blog.

Ricky M · Apr 17, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
But Jesus is not speaking to all believers He’s speaking to His 11 faithful apostles. So it could mean that each of them would do more works than Him or all of them collectively.

But another thing I don't believe in is scriptures not pertaining to all of us.

Get a Bible you don't mind tearing apart. Then every time you come across a verse you don't think applies to you, rip that page out. Then, at the end of a year, take a long hard look at how much of God's word you deemed irrelevant.

Or, buy an MRV

BNR32FAN · Apr 17, 2020

Ricky M said:
But another thing I don't believe in is scriptures not pertaining to all of us.

Get a Bible you don't mind tearing apart. Then every time you come across a verse you don't think applies to you, rip that page out. Then, at the end of a year, take a long hard look at how much of God's word you deemed irrelevant.

Or, buy an MRV

I’m sorry I misread that verse, He was not only referring to the faithful 11, he was referring to everyone who believes in Him and in His works.

Guojing · Apr 17, 2020

Ricky M said:
But another thing I don't believe in is scriptures not pertaining to all of us.

Get a Bible you don't mind tearing apart. Then every time you come across a verse you don't think applies to you, rip that page out. Then, at the end of a year, take a long hard look at how much of God's word you deemed irrelevant.

Or, buy an MRV

So when you come across Genesis 6, when God commanded Noah to build an ark, do you really rip that page out because you know God is not speaking to you there?

Ricky M · Apr 17, 2020

Guojing said:
So when you come across Genesis 6, when God commanded Noah to build an ark, do you really rip that page out because you know God is not speaking to you there?

No, you take it as a lesson point. God says that in the end, it will be like the days of Noah. God told Noah to build a boat. He may tell you to buy a bus. Do you respond like Noah did, or do you dismiss it as not relevant? Too, what were the conditions Noah faced? We need to understand what those were, to understand what we will see in the end. Yo can't do that if you dismiss it as irrelevant.

Guojing · Apr 17, 2020

Ricky M said:
No, you take it as a lesson point. God says that in the end, it will be like the days of Noah. God told Noah to build a boat. He may tell you to buy a bus. Do you respond like Noah did, or do you dismiss it as not relevant?

Yep, so when someone reads that passage from John about greater works, why do we automatically think it was directed to us?

Even if it was not directed to us, we don't have to rip that passage out. For me, I learned more about the Jewish mentality, how ever since Exodus 4, the Jews were always shown signs from anyone who comes to them and claim he is giving them a message from God.

So I take that as a lesson point, as you have done so for Genesis 6. Just like you have referenced the last days, I know that, during the Tribulation, signs and wonders will be activated by God once again but the Jews would have to be concerned about fake signs from the antichrist, as Jesus warned them about in Matthew 24:24

Ricky M · Apr 17, 2020

Guojing said:
Yep, so when someone reads that passage from John about greater works, why do we automatically think it was directed to us?

Even if it was not directed to us, we don't have to rip that passage out. For me, I learned more about the Jewish mentality, how ever since Exodus 4, the Jews were always shown signs from anyone who comes to them and claim he is giving them a message from God.

So I take that as a lesson point, as you have done so for Genesis 6. Just like you have referenced the last days, I know that, during the Tribulation, signs and wonders will be activated by God once again but the Jews would have to be concerned about fake signs from the antichrist, as Jesus warned them about in Matthew 24:24

Assuming Matthew 24 was only for the Jews.

Guojing · Apr 17, 2020

Ricky M said:
Assuming Matthew 24 was only for the Jews.

The Body of Christ would be raptured before the Tribulation, since we are delivered from wrath.
1 Thessalonians 1:10

But I do understand this pre-trib rapture is not universally held by Christians so that will depend on where you stand there.

St_Worm2 · Apr 18, 2020

Here are some interesting thoughts from Dr. Carson.

14:12. Jesus has been appealing for faith. The appeal continues in vv. 12–14 by focusing on the fruitfulness that anyone who has faith in Jesus (ho pisteuōn eis eme—an expression that embraces all believers, not just the apostles) will enjoy. The promise is staggering: the person with such faith, Jesus says, will do what I have been doing. Indeed, he will do even greater things than these—not because he is greater, but because I am going to the Father.

The things (erga, ‘works’, cf. v. 11) Jesus has been doing, and the greater things that follow, cannot legitimately be restricted to deeds of humility (13:15) or acts of love (13:34–35), still less to proclamation of Jesus’ ‘words’ (v. 10). Jesus’ ‘works’ may include more than his miracles; they never exclude them. But even so, greater works is not a transparent expression. It cannot simply mean more works—i.e. the church will do more things than Jesus did, since it embraces so many people over such a long period of time—since there are perfectly good Greek ways of saying ‘more’, and since in any case the meaning would then be unbearably trite. Nor can greater works mean ‘more spectacular’ or ‘more supernatural’ works: it is hard to imagine works that are more spectacular or supernatural than the raising of Lazarus from the dead, the multiplication of bread and the turning of water into wine.

The clues to the expression’s meaning are two: first, the final clause, because I am going to the Father, and second, the parallel in 5:20: ‘For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these’ (meizona toutōn, as in 14:12). The two clues point in the same direction. Jesus’ disciples will perform greater works because he is going to the Father: this cannot mean that they will have greater scope for their activity because he will have faded from the scene and relinquished the turf to them, but that the very basis for their greater works is his going to the Father. Their works become greater precisely because of the new order that has come about consequent on his going to the Father. Similarly, the context of 5:20 shows that the greater works the Father will show the Son, and that the Son will therefore manifest to his followers, are displays of resurrection and judgment (cf. 5:17, 24–26). This life-giving power of the Son depends in turn on the Son’s death, resurrection and exaltation.

In short, the works that the disciples perform after the resurrection are greater than those done by Jesus before his death insofar as the former belong to an age of clarity and power introduced by Jesus’ sacrifice and exaltation. Both Jesus’ words and his deeds were somewhat veiled during the days of his flesh; even his closest followers, as the foregoing verses make clear, grasped only part of what he was saying. But Jesus is about to return to his Father, he is about to be glorified, and in the wake of his glorification his followers will know and make known all that Jesus is and does, and their every deed and word will belong to the new eschatological age that will then have dawned. The ‘signs’ and ‘works’ Jesus performed during his ministry could not fully accomplish their true end until after Jesus had risen from the dead and been exalted. Only at that point could they be seen for what they were. By contrast, the works believers are given to do through the power of the eschatological Spirit, after Jesus’ glorification, will be set in the framework of Jesus’ death and triumph, and will therefore more immediately and truly reveal the Son. Thus greater things is constrained by salvation-historical realities. In consequence many more converts will be gathered into the messianic community, the nascent church, than were drawn in during Jesus’ ministry (cf. 15:26–27; 17:20; 20:21, 29). The contrast itself, however, turns not on raw numbers but on the power and clarity that mushroom after the eschatological hinge has swung and the new day has dawned. The contrast between the greatness of John the Baptist and the greatness of the least in the kingdom is not entirely dissimilar (cf. Carson, Matt, pp. 262–269, on Mt. 11:7–15). ~Carson, D. A. (1991). The Gospel according to John (pp. 495–496). Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; W.B. Eerdmans.

--David

John 14
12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.”
.

Randy777 · Apr 18, 2020

HatGuy said:
Hi guys,

In John 14:12, Jesus says this:

"I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these, because I am going to the Father." (NET)

I understand that Him "going to the Father" implies that He will send His Spirit and empower us.

But, my question is: it seems to me no one has really DONE the kind of deeds / works Jesus did, never mind GREATER works.

So what is Jesus saying here? Thoughts?

Go!

I also think greater could mean "more"

but this was noted
The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. 13No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. 14Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. 15As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. 16Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.

God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them

Its implied Peters shadow healed and stated Paul's handkerchief and aprons healed those that touched them.

Doing greater deeds than Jesus?

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