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Doesn't this bother you?

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A Brother In Christ

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You are not being consistent with your own argument.

To be consistent with your own logic here you would have to agree that no man who isn't the husband of one wife could be a deacon or a bishop.

It would not just be an issue of being a man then, but of being married too.

I don't believe Paul would agree with you on how you have used his writings in this way.

Furthermore, you should keep in mind that it was lawful for Gentiles to marry more than one woman at the time when Paul wrote this. Christians weren't to associate themselves with such practices. It was never according to God's will for a man to have more than one wife. That's why he had said that one must be the husband of one wife.


if married...

or He has relationship with one woman at a time

not a man who is who has adultry...


1 cor 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
 
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woobadooba

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if married...

or He has relationship with one woman at a time

not a man who is who has adultry...


1 cor 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

You're missing the point.

If you are going to take what Paul had said at face value and conclude that it isn't tainted by cultural norms, then you must take everything that he had said on the matter as such, thus concluding that a man must not only be married, but to one woman nonetheless, in order to be a deacon or bishop. Hence the "husband of one wife".

The point here is that you're not interpreting what Paul had said aright; rather, you're superimposing meaning that he never intended to convey in his phraseology, in stating that when he had said a bishop must be the "husband of one wife" he meant that a bishop can only be a man. Even though he opposed the idea that a woman could be a bishop, that is not what he meant when he used that phrase. For, if he did mean this, then he couldn't qualify to be a bishop because he wasn't married, and he would have contradicted himself by commending Phoebe for the work that she was doing as a deaconess, since a deacon was also supposed to be a husband of one wife.

It is quite obvious that Paul was speaking according to the cultural norms of his religiosity at the time rather than speaking in absolutes which are to be applied to all times.
 
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TrueMyth

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I's not just meant to be difficult, but impossible!
Women, left to thier thier own devices are gossips, slanderers, prone to quick judgemnt and thoroughly depraved! (As men, but thier weakness' usually lie elsewhere-heh).

Women aught to remain silent in church, wear a hat and a skirt or dress (no jeans)..
This is impossible with men, err women!

But all things are possible with Jesus! :kiss:

You do as you feel compelled.
 
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TrueMyth

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What is this supposed to mean? How is Christ's suffering related to how women should act in church?

My point is that if you feel compelled to stay silent in church and wear a skirt and a hat, I will say nothing aginst your personal conviction, since it is neither hurting nor hindering anyone else (whether it does so to yourself is another issue, but that is not my business).

Oh, and yes: men do have their own weaknesses. Among them is a tendency to sieze power at all costs and to treat women as insignificant objects. Is it possible this has influenced interpretation (done by men) of Paul's writings? I'll let you decide.
 
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TrueMyth

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Yes, those verses do bother me. And you're right, one's answer to this will cut to the point of their view of Scripture and its inspiration. So, at the risk of joining you in the boiling pot, let me offer my opinion and its rational support.

I reject absolutely the idea that the Bible is inerrant in every way. There are quite clearly historical and/or scientific errors in its record. Even apart from this, we must ask about the human writers through whom God worked. It seems the only way for God to ensure that absolutely every word was precisely what He wanted would be for Him to forcibly move the quill as He desired. Thus, we can admit of human error; or, to be more precise, human bias. We see cursing Psalms expressing decidedly un-loving attitudes (39, 69, 109); we see God making bargains with the devil (the Book of Job); we even see Jesus Himself expressing historical ignorance (Matt. 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27). I reject utterly the idea that the Bible is absolutely consistent and completely without error; I also reject utterly the idea that this makes it worthless or of low worth.

We can easily see Paul's biases, at least on a superficial glance: he wears them on his sleeve. He apparently believes that marriage is merely a substitute for lust; he apparently believes that women should cover their heads and shut up in church; and he apparently believes that women are to blame for this whole sin mess and that they are cleansed by the pain of childbirth. It is interesting: in any piece of literature except Scripture, we would analyze him and say that he probably had some serious issues with women, most likely stemming from an unresolved Oedipal complex or some abuse in childhood. I think we ought not ignore these passages as uncomfortable; no Scripture should be given that treatment. Instead, we should explore what that meant to the original writer and the original audience, and see what we can draw from it.

As I have already said, it is clear where Paul's biases seem to lie. No other Biblical author speaks out so frequently or so radically against women's actions. But let us see what else Paul says about women:

1) He makes no distinctions between men and women in light of Christ (Gal. 3:28)
2) He speaks approvingly of women praying and proclaiming God's message in public worship (1 Cor. 11:5)
3) He refers to several women whom he instituted and/or approved for leadership over a church (Rom. 16)
4) He admonishes husbands to love their wives in a sacrificial way, which was unheard of in that time period (Eph. 5:25, 28; Col. 3:19)

Partially in light of these inconsistencies, and partially due to extant manuscripts, many scholars believe that the 1 Cor. 14 admonition is a later addition, especially in light of Paul's praise of women speaking out in church merely three chapters earlier. Thus, there is some doubt that this is actually Paul talking and not some later mysogynistic scribe. If it is Paul, however, while it seems that this is a clear case of his bias against women, is it necessary that we view it that way?

Let's look now at the intended audience. Paul is writing a letter to the Corinthians, a notoriously rowdy and randy bunch who frequently bent the rules of good conduct to suit their patterns of behavior. More than once, Paul had to lay down the law with them. Paul speaks in his other writings of "spiritual milk" and "solid food", and how certain Christians are deserving of each. He also speaks about not causing a brother to stumble, and abstaining from practices which are acceptable in God's eyes because indulging in them might lead a weaker brother to sin. Is it so unreasonable, given the intended audience, that Paul is giving spiritual milk teachings to weak Christians, not claiming that the thing is in and of itself bad, but that it is best to avoid it altogether to avoid any appearance of impropriety and to keep others strong in their walk? It is entirely possible that (assuming the passage is truly Pauline) he got a little carried away in his rhetoric, given his frustration with this church.

Either Paul allowed women to speak in church, or he didn't. 1 Cor. 11:2 indicates that he did; 1 Cor. 14:33 indicates he didn't. Which are we to believe is the better universal mandate? The former has a much better argument for it, since it has reason, justice, and spiritual solid food on its side.
 
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Zeena

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What is this supposed to mean? How is Christ's suffering related to how women should act in church?

My point is that if you feel compelled to stay silent in church and wear a skirt and a hat, I will say nothing aginst your personal conviction, since it is neither hurting nor hindering anyone else (whether it does so to yourself is another issue, but that is not my business).

Oh, and yes: men do have their own weaknesses. Among them is a tendency to sieze power at all costs and to treat women as insignificant objects. Is it possible this has influenced interpretation (done by men) of Paul's writings? I'll let you decide.

I don't FEEL compelled to stay silent in church! LOL!!

QUITE the opposite in fact!

But this is not what I'm called to, nor you!

We are called to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow JESUS..
Who, I might add, wrote the scriptures by His Holy Spirit through the apostles..

Jesus does not sin..
And anything that is not of faith is sin!

Is it Jesus in you denying the word of God as true?
 
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TrueMyth

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I don't FEEL compelled to stay silent in church! LOL!!

QUITE the opposite in fact!

But this is not what I'm called to, nor you!

We are called to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow JESUS..
Who, I might add, wrote the scriptures by His Holy Spirit through the apostles..

Jesus does not sin..
And anything that is not of faith is sin!

Is it Jesus in you denying the word of God as true?

We all feel many different things. Some are of God, and some are from our sinful human nature. The trick is figuring out which is which.

I'm not going to go into a discussion here of why I reject the absolute inerrancy of the Bible; that is too complex and wide-ranging of a discussion to cover in a thread on another topic.

Anything that is not of faith is sin, eh? I wonder what your definition of faith is. Does it exclude reason? If it does, I'll lay aside whether or not it's even possible to function like this, but I'll say this at least: Do you believe in the Trinity? Then you are sinning. This is an inference from the Bible reached through reason, not faith, since it is not explicitly stated in the Bible.

It is so easy to claim rhetorical platitudes which have no clear meaning, and your last statement is one of them. If you mean "truth" to be complete inerrancy, then I do doubt this. Of course, I think this is a very poor understanding of truth. If you mean "truth" to be "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16), then I don't doubt this. I reproduce my argument below:

let us see what else Paul says about women:

1) He makes no distinctions between men and women in light of Christ (Gal. 3:28)
2) He speaks approvingly of women praying and proclaiming God's message in public worship (1 Cor. 11:5)
3) He refers to several women whom he instituted and/or approved for leadership over a church (Rom. 16)
4) He admonishes husbands to love their wives in a sacrificial way, which was unheard of in that time period (Eph. 5:25, 28; Col. 3:19)

...

Let's look now at the intended audience. Paul is writing a letter to the Corinthians, a notoriously rowdy and randy bunch who frequently bent the rules of good conduct to suit their patterns of behavior. More than once, Paul had to lay down the law with them. Paul speaks in his other writings of "spiritual milk" and "solid food", and how certain Christians are deserving of each. He also speaks about not causing a brother to stumble, and abstaining from practices which are acceptable in God's eyes because indulging in them might lead a weaker brother to sin. Is it so unreasonable, given the intended audience, that Paul is giving spiritual milk teachings to weak Christians, not claiming that the thing is in and of itself bad, but that it is best to avoid it altogether to avoid any appearance of impropriety and to keep others strong in their walk? It is entirely possible that (assuming the passage is truly Pauline) he got a little carried away in his rhetoric, given his frustration with this church.

Either Paul allowed women to speak in church, or he didn't. 1 Cor. 11:2 indicates that he did; 1 Cor. 14:33 indicates he didn't. Which are we to believe is the better universal mandate? The former has a much better argument for it, since it has reason, justice, and spiritual solid food on its side.

You'll notice that I still find Paul's words "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness"-- I don't see how it is consistent to interpret this as a universal rule; it was useful for that church, and for others in similar situations, but not for all women at all times.
 
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Zeena

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We all feel many different things. Some are of God, and some are from our sinful human nature. The trick is figuring out which is which.

Excuse me?
Romans 6:3 KJV
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
That sinful human nature was crucified with Christ Jesus! :)
I now have a NEW nature!
EVEN GOD!
Galatians 2:20 KJV
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
You are deeply confused if you do not know you died already with Him on the cross..

That old mean is DEAD! :D

You say you are Christian, and I do not doubt that you once accepted Him as you Saviour, but have you not heard ALL He has accomplished in that perfect Salvation?

Hebrews 2:3
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him
 
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sunlover1

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People try to say that this wasn't a cultural thing, and thus imply that it is an absolute rule, but I have to disagree with this.

Now here's the BIG question for those who oppose women's ordination: If you are going to use Paul to make the claim that this is wrong, then you need to take everything that he says into account, and agree that women should remain silent in church, so much that they shouldn't even ask questions. With that said, why do you have a problem with women's ordination, and yet show yourself to be passive about these other things that Paul doesn't permit women to do in church?



We have to look at the setting and the times.
What had been going on in this church?
What had this group of people been accustomed to in the past, concerning temple practices?

Good post, good questions.

sunlover
 
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TrueMyth

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Thing is..
God is eternal..
There for He speaks from Eternity.

So everything god says is always true all the time? I certainly hope then that you don't wear clothes with two kinds of fabric, you don't eat animal meat without the blook drained, and if a married friend's husband dies and she is childless I hope you counsel her to marry her husband's brother.

Or perhaps these were specific prohibitions for a specific group of people (the Israelites)?...
 
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Zeena

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So everything god says is always true all the time? I certainly hope then that you don't wear clothes with two kinds of fabric, you don't eat animal meat without the blook drained, and if a married friend's husband dies and she is childless I hope you counsel her to marry her husband's brother.

Or perhaps these were specific prohibitions for a specific group of people (the Israelites)?...

God knew in advance (remember..ETERNAL Life) the Israelistes could not keep the Law of God! The Law of God was made for ONE person only, and that is the Son of God, Jesus!

He FULLFILLED the Law of God perfectly!

As He does in us who walk not according to the flesh, for if you walk by the flesh you will die.. But for those who walk according to His Holy Spirit, for in this there is Life and Peace! :)
 
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TrueMyth

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That is all easy to say, but it doesn't answer the question of how we are to use the OT. Are we to ignore it? Are we to write it off as "old covenant" and spend all our time reading the NT? I doubt you have a fully developed answer for this, but that's all right: you don't really have to in order to have faith.

Since you at any rate are more likely to be dogmatic about what is said in the NT, I will stick to that, especially since this will bring the discussion back to topic. You haven't answered the other verses I presented (twice) about Paul's opinions regarding women, so I will repost them here (again) in the hopes that you will be able to provide a response.

let us see what else Paul says about women:

1) He makes no distinctions between men and women in light of Christ (Gal. 3:28)
2) He speaks approvingly of women praying and proclaiming God's message in public worship (1 Cor. 11:5)
3) He refers to several women whom he instituted and/or approved for leadership over a church (Rom. 16)
4) He admonishes husbands to love their wives in a sacrificial way, which was unheard of in that time period (Eph. 5:25, 28; Col. 3:19)

...

Let's look now at the intended audience [of Paul's prohibitions for women]. Paul is writing a letter to the Corinthians, a notoriously rowdy and randy bunch who frequently bent the rules of good conduct to suit their patterns of behavior. More than once, Paul had to lay down the law with them. Paul speaks in his other writings of "spiritual milk" and "solid food", and how certain Christians are deserving of each. He also speaks about not causing a brother to stumble, and abstaining from practices which are acceptable in God's eyes because indulging in them might lead a weaker brother to sin. Is it so unreasonable, given the intended audience, that Paul is giving spiritual milk teachings to weak Christians, not claiming that the thing is in and of itself bad, but that it is best to avoid it altogether to avoid any appearance of impropriety and to keep others strong in their walk? It is entirely possible that (assuming the passage is truly Pauline) he got a little carried away in his rhetoric, given his frustration with this church.

Either Paul allowed women to speak in church, or he didn't. 1 Cor. 11:2 indicates that he did; 1 Cor. 14:33 indicates he didn't. Which are we to believe is the better universal mandate? The former has a much better argument for it, since it has reason, justice, and spiritual solid food on its side.

I will also add that if we say that Paul's more "equitable" statements about women are the general universal prescription, then we are able to allow for specific instructions to specific churches. However, if we say that Paul's "inequitable" statements about women are the general universal description, we are left wondering why he directly contradicts them in other places.
 
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Zeena

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That is all easy to say, but it doesn't answer the question of how we are to use the OT. Are we to ignore it? Are we to write it off as "old covenant" and spend all our time reading the NT? I doubt you have a fully developed answer for this, but that's all right: you don't really have to in order to have faith.

Since you at any rate are more likely to be dogmatic about what is said in the NT, I will stick to that, especially since this will bring the discussion back to topic. You haven't answered the other verses I presented (twice) about Paul's opinions regarding women, so I will repost them here (again) in the hopes that you will be able to provide a response.



I will also add that if we say that Paul's more "equitable" statements about women are the general universal prescription, then we are able to allow for specific instructions to specific churches. However, if we say that Paul's "inequitable" statements about women are the general universal description, we are left wondering why he directly contradicts them in other places.

According to the Light I've been given, he (Paul) does not contradict 'them' in other places :o
 
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