I started this thread because I want to examine certain things that Paul had said about women in the church:
"women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says."
Now some would interpret "speak" as 'preach' or 'teach', but the idea that they are to "be silent" pretty much tells us that this goes beyond the act of preaching and teaching. It tells us that they were not allowed to voice their opinion or contribute any thoughts to what was being taught in the church by men at that time.
For example, to relate this rule to Sabbath school, women would not be allowed to teach Sabbath school, or contribute their thoughts to it.
Moreover, they wouldn't even be allowed to question what's being taught by the instructor. Hence, they are not allowed to voice their thoughts, or ask questions; instead, they must be silent. For, it is evident that Paul was not limiting this idea to preaching and teaching, but women must remain silent in general: "If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
A woman who is preaching or teaching is not disclosing herself as one who has a "desire to know"; rather, she is one who is speaking with a desire to inculcate what she knows.
With that said, Paul, in other words, had said that a woman shouldn't even ask questions in church, but should just accept what's being said, and then when she goes home she ought to ask her husband to explain it to her. For, "it is shameful for a woman to speak in church", or perhaps it would be better put, "It is shameful for a woman to question church authority."
Notice now how the verb 'speak' takes on more meaning than just teaching or preaching. It even goes so far as to denote the idea that questions aren't even to be asked by women in church! In other words, to question a man in church is to challenge the authority that he holds within the church, as well as to threaten the authority that he has over a woman. This was unlawful.
Interestingly, the other implication here is that a woman ought to accept whatever her husband tells her on the matter without question, since he is the authority over her. So not only does she not have a voice in the church, but she doesn't have a voice in the home either on such matters!
Now if we were to follow this rule today a woman would have no place to speak in the church except to women (their equals). Moreover, no woman would have a authority over a child that has reached the age of 13, since according to Jewish custom that is when a boy becomes a man. And Paul does not permit a woman to exercise such authority over a man: "I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent." (1Ti 2:12 NRSV)
Now I am willing to take the risk that others might look down on me for questioning these things, and assume me to be one who is rejecting the word of God as a result of this, but I don't agree that what Paul is saying here is to be taken as an absolute law. And I think I have good reason to disagree.
People try to say that this wasn't a cultural thing, and thus imply that it is an absolute rule, but I have to disagree with this.
Now here's the BIG question for those who oppose women's ordination: If you are going to use Paul to make the claim that this is wrong, then you need to take everything that he says into account, and agree that women should remain silent in church, so much that they shouldn't even ask questions. With that said, why do you have a problem with women's ordination, and yet show yourself to be passive about these other things that Paul doesn't permit women to do in church?
"women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says."
Now some would interpret "speak" as 'preach' or 'teach', but the idea that they are to "be silent" pretty much tells us that this goes beyond the act of preaching and teaching. It tells us that they were not allowed to voice their opinion or contribute any thoughts to what was being taught in the church by men at that time.
For example, to relate this rule to Sabbath school, women would not be allowed to teach Sabbath school, or contribute their thoughts to it.
Moreover, they wouldn't even be allowed to question what's being taught by the instructor. Hence, they are not allowed to voice their thoughts, or ask questions; instead, they must be silent. For, it is evident that Paul was not limiting this idea to preaching and teaching, but women must remain silent in general: "If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
A woman who is preaching or teaching is not disclosing herself as one who has a "desire to know"; rather, she is one who is speaking with a desire to inculcate what she knows.
With that said, Paul, in other words, had said that a woman shouldn't even ask questions in church, but should just accept what's being said, and then when she goes home she ought to ask her husband to explain it to her. For, "it is shameful for a woman to speak in church", or perhaps it would be better put, "It is shameful for a woman to question church authority."
Notice now how the verb 'speak' takes on more meaning than just teaching or preaching. It even goes so far as to denote the idea that questions aren't even to be asked by women in church! In other words, to question a man in church is to challenge the authority that he holds within the church, as well as to threaten the authority that he has over a woman. This was unlawful.
Interestingly, the other implication here is that a woman ought to accept whatever her husband tells her on the matter without question, since he is the authority over her. So not only does she not have a voice in the church, but she doesn't have a voice in the home either on such matters!
Now if we were to follow this rule today a woman would have no place to speak in the church except to women (their equals). Moreover, no woman would have a authority over a child that has reached the age of 13, since according to Jewish custom that is when a boy becomes a man. And Paul does not permit a woman to exercise such authority over a man: "I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent." (1Ti 2:12 NRSV)
Now I am willing to take the risk that others might look down on me for questioning these things, and assume me to be one who is rejecting the word of God as a result of this, but I don't agree that what Paul is saying here is to be taken as an absolute law. And I think I have good reason to disagree.
People try to say that this wasn't a cultural thing, and thus imply that it is an absolute rule, but I have to disagree with this.
Now here's the BIG question for those who oppose women's ordination: If you are going to use Paul to make the claim that this is wrong, then you need to take everything that he says into account, and agree that women should remain silent in church, so much that they shouldn't even ask questions. With that said, why do you have a problem with women's ordination, and yet show yourself to be passive about these other things that Paul doesn't permit women to do in church?
