Does the Scientific Method require Faith?

CabVet

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And here it turns to speculation. You only know about what has been found, not what hasn't been found. It is speculation that all errors will eventually be found.

Absolutely, we will never find all errors. But once a hypothesis or theory is proposed, it is tested, over and over again, with different systems, different experiments, at different labs, by different scientists. If the hypothesis (or theory) is strong it will gain support. If it is not, it will be rejected.
 
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RickG

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Originally Posted by RickG
No theory has all questions answered. In science when something is not known it is clearly stated so.
That's a bit naive. You don't know what you don't know.

Why do I get the impression that you are not one who reads any kind of peer reviewed scientific journal with any regularity? Almost every published paper states what they did not include in their research and what ambiguities remain. It in no way is a statement of "you don't know what I don't know". It is a statement of what is unknown or not clearly known with any certainty. For example: It is known that cosmic rays have some affect of particle nucleation in cloud formation, but to what degree is still somewhat ambiguous.

Originally Posted by RickG
However, once published for the greater scientific community to scrutinize, such selective bias is usually exposed and rooted out.
And here it turns to speculation. You only know about what has been found, not what hasn't been found. It is speculation that all errors will eventually be found.
It is not speculation, it is a case where some less than scholarly science gets through the peer review process and makes publication. In short, obvious errors, for example there are two very recent papers I am familiar with that meet that criteria.

1. Spenser & Braswell 2011, published in the Journal, Remote Sensing, an article titled, “On the Misdiagnosis of Surface Temperature Feedbacks from Variations in Earth’s Radiant Energy Balance”.

Essentially what happened is that data was fudged. Data that supported their argument was used while ignoring an enormous amount of data that invalidated their argument. It was so obvious that the editor in chief resigned under embarrassment.

2. O. Humlum, J. Solheim, and K. Stordahl, "Identifying natural contributions to late Holocene climate change", Global and Planetary Change, vol. 79, 2011, pp. 145-156.

Again, a case of utilizing selective data. In this case it amounted to "curve fitting", ignoring the long term trends that do not fit the curve.
 
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Resha Caner

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Absolutely, we will never find all errors. But once a hypothesis or theory is proposed, it is tested, over and over again, with different systems, different experiments, at different labs, by different scientists. If the hypothesis (or theory) is strong it will gain support. If it is not, it will be rejected.

Sure. I was speaking to the original question about "faith" in science, which I still don't think has been defined for this thread. It seemed like RickG somewhat agreed with me, but then he equivocated. I was trying to point out that appeals to "we'll find the errors" don't eliminate the sense of faith I had suggested.

So, again, there is a sense of faith in science, but it depends on what the OP means by faith.
 
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RickG

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Sure. I was speaking to the original question about "faith" in science, which I still don't think has been defined for this thread. It seemed like RickG somewhat agreed with me, but then he equivocated. I was trying to point out that appeals to "we'll find the errors" don't eliminate the sense of faith I had suggested.

So, again, there is a sense of faith in science, but it depends on what the OP means by faith.

I apologize if I have misunderstood you. What I am saying is that quite simply, in the scientific method everything is based on recognition of some form of empirical evidence.

1. Define a question. Asking a question does not require faith.
2. Gather information & resources (observe). No faith there.
3. Form a hypothesis. An hypothesis is a suggested explanation based known information. No faith there.
4. Test the hypothesis, collect data, repeat the test. No faith there.
5. Analyze the data. Analyzing data is not an act of faith.
6. Interpret and draw conclusions, reform the hypothesis if necessary. Again no faith.
7. Publish/report the results. No faith there
8. Retest, usually done by others to verify results. Again, no faith.
 
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CabVet

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Sure. I was speaking to the original question about "faith" in science, which I still don't think has been defined for this thread. It seemed like RickG somewhat agreed with me, but then he equivocated. I was trying to point out that appeals to "we'll find the errors" don't eliminate the sense of faith I had suggested.

So, again, there is a sense of faith in science, but it depends on what the OP means by faith.

I noticed that a lot of the threads here are never resolved because we all have different definitions for different terms. To me, faith is believing in something that you cannot observe (directly or indirectly). So, take my statement:

I accept gravity (and evolution), whereas AV believes that Adam and Eve spoke English.

To me, the first portion of my statement requires no faith because I can observe and test the predictions of these theories. Now, the second part requires faith 1) there is no way we can test that (the observation is neither reproducible nor recorded), and 2) there is a very high likelihood that Adam spoke a language close to Hebrew.

In other words, if there was no support (in the form of evidence) to a scientific theory, it would be immediately dismissed, regardless of how much it's proponent said it was true or how many books he wrote about it. There are many hypotheses that were rejected like this. Now, if I told you that Krishna changed my life and that you should follow Krishna because he will change yours too, I would be asking you to have faith in me (and Krishna).
 
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chilehed

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It has been stated in another thread that science requires faith. ....The question I have is, "where in the scientific method is faith required"?
It requires the presuppositions that the human mind is rational, and that it is capable of making observations which conform to reality.

Both of those presuppositions are taken as a matter of faith.
 
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L

Lillen

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It all depends on which view you take. I would like to agree with the former scientists, it requires faith for me to believe what the scientists says. But that was not the question though, the question was "does scientific method requires faith?" it depends who is the scientists.

For instance, if i invent and alphabeth were alpha and omega or andre och oskar, or the first and last is mentioned. then i am an inventor rather then a scientists. I would like to say that science prevent people from being creative from this view. In other views it is a tool for being creative. Which view you chose is up to you? BUt i tell you the more you reject of science the closer understanding you will have of the truth, and being able be creative. the latter idea is hatched from the falsification method, with a touch of scoffing.

I m
 
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Resha Caner

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I apologize if I have misunderstood you. What I am saying is that quite simply, in the scientific method everything is based on recognition of some form of empirical evidence.

I must ask you what you think faith is ... please.

I can name at least 2 places in your process that require some sense of faith - even with your empirical stipulation. Have you studied induction? Have you studied measurement theory? I'm sorry if I appear anal about this, but I'm not alone. The literature on this topic is massive.
 
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Resha Caner

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I noticed that a lot of the threads here are never resolved because we all have different definitions for different terms.

True, but I've been on both sides asking for and giving definitions. It can be very difficult to give a good definition because of 1) the very adversarial nature of these conversations (by adversarial I don't mean hostile, but there is often a mercenary intent to bring down a certain view) and 2) we sometimes bite off more than we can chew.

To me, faith is believing in something that you cannot observe (directly or indirectly).

That's close to how I would phrase it. I say faith is acceptance in the absence of evidence or due to incomplete evidence. Using that definition, along with some synthetic ideas also explains why atheists tend to see my faith as acceptance despite evidence.

I accept gravity (and evolution), whereas AV believes that Adam and Eve spoke English.

To me, the first portion of my statement requires no faith because I can observe and test the predictions of these theories. Now, the second part requires faith 1) there is no way we can test that ...

I'll agree with you about the faith involved in the 2nd part of your example.

But I'll disagree with you about how you phrased the 1st part. Maybe it requires faith of a lesser degree, but it doesn't mean faith is completely absent. Can you see "gravity" or do you simply see a repeatable effect? It is your "faith" in Newton's postulate about force-at-a-distance that leads you to conclude gravity is the agent, but you have never actually seen that agent. For all you know it could be some very dedicated leprechauns.

Now, if I told you that Krishna changed my life and that you should follow Krishna because he will change yours too, I would be asking you to have faith in me (and Krishna).

You would, but your example is not one of an absence of evidence. I could observe your life to see if you have indeed changed (hence the strong emphasis Christians make amongst themselves about the importance of their life being a "witness").

Your example is, however, an example of incomplete evidence. Once I conclude that your life has indeed changed, several possibilities exist that would affect what happens next.
 
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AV1611VET

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I accept gravity (and evolution), whereas AV believes that Adam and Eve spoke English.
Do you accept an empty tomb?

Your mindset keeps you from entering the kingdom of Heaven, does it not?

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
 
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juvenissun

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It has been stated in another thread that science requires faith. So, what is science? The word science comes from the Latin word "scientia", meaning knowledge. Keeping that in mind, what is a definition of science? Webster's dictionary defines science as[SIZE=-1]:

"knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."

Recently, Brittan's Science Council officially defined science as:

[/SIZE]
"Science is the pursuit of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence."


[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]

This may be off the issue. But it is one of the basic question:

According to this definition, could you name one study (discipline) which is not science?

I think it is a very bad definition.
 
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RickG

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This may be off the issue. But it is one of the basic question:

According to this definition, could you name one study (discipline) which is not science?

I think it is a very bad definition.

I agree, it is a very ambiguous definition.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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While I would agree with you on your definition of Biblical faith and on the worst atheist caricature of faith, I would disagree on your definition of knowledge. It's not really divided into three neat categories; in reality, belief exists on a spectrum.

On the one hand, you have outright unreasonable faith. This would be faith that resists clear evidence. As an example of this, imagine a group of people who believe that the ocean is made of blue gelatin. You can show them that it's not, you can prove to them that it's water all you want, but they are still going to believe that the ocean is made of blue gelatin no matter what.

On the other hand, you have absolute knowledge. I exist. I don't know absolutely that you exist, or that this computer exists. For all I know, I could be a brain in a vat, a man with locked-in syndrome, the dream of a colossal mega-computer that killed mankind, or anything else. On some level, however, I exist. That's absolute knowledge, and I'm going to go with Descartes and say that that's all I can absolutely know.

Anywhere between that, you have to have some sort of faith.

I have faith that you exist. That faith is based on evidence, but it falls short of absolute knowledge. The evidence for it, however, rises to the level that it is absolute knowledge for all intents and purposes. I'll call that "practical knowledge". This is the sort of knowledge that we use in day to day life.

On the other hand, very few people would accept that the ocean is made out of gelatin. However, a lot of people are willing to accept things that require a high degree of willful ignorance, so we'll call that "practically blind faith". This is the sort of faith that some (not all, but definitely some) atheists caricature Christianity as being.

Practically everything requires some faith and practically everything requires some evidence. It's not cut and dry.

Faith based upon the use of reason requires a much higher amount of proof than practically blind faith. This sort of faith in Christianity requires the evidence from creation that there is a God, and from Scripture that Jesus is the Messiah. It also requires the evidence of individuals who stated that Jesus rose from the dead. However, those are all things that require faith to accept that they mean what I believe that they mean. You could believe that the Universe was perpetually existent, or that Jesus didn't fulfill Messianic prophecies, or that the Disciples were incorrect in some way. All of those things require a higher degree of faith to accept compared to non-supernatural things that we encounter in day to day life.

The scientific method, on the other hand, also requires faith in the sense that you have to have some trust that reality works in a way which will allow it to function, but it provides immediate physical evidence. While there may be some disagreement over interpretations of that eevidence, there will be general acceptance of something which makes itself readily apparent.

Therefore, saying that the scientific method requires the same type of faith as reasoned belief is incorrect. I would argue that more basic scientific principles approach the level of practical knowledge, and would be outside of any typically used definition of faith.

This is a very well-written post. Nice work. I agree wholeheartedly.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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The question I have is, "where in the scientific method is faith required"?

I don't think the scientific method acts on faith, as per roach's definition. The scientific method does, however, make some assumptions. These assumptions are not based on faith but are rather inductively defined because there is no evidence that suggests otherwise.

For example, the scientific method makes the assumption that the physical constants of the universe are constant through time and can therefore be extrapolated both forward and backwards in time. This is assumption is not based on lack of evidence; the evidence is that we have never observed anything different. It is standard inductive logic: we haven't seen any black swans, so until we do, we inductively assume all swans are white.

However, I do not like your diagram. At the bottom it says that the hypothesis is either "true" or "false or partially true."

For it to be truly scientific, I think it should say that the hypothesis either "works" or "does not work or partially works."

At its heart science is pragmatic. The scientific method ultimately cannot describe that which is "true" but it can only describe that which "works" within a given model. Newtonian physics was exposed to not be "true" but only to work "within a given model". The same can be said of any scientific "truth" that has later become over-turned by something new.

Even the idea that the Earth is flat still works given the correct model in an engineering or geophysics problem.

Every scientific hypothesis previously has been over-turned. Using inductive logic, it is reasonable to assume that every current scientific hypothesis will also one day be over-turned. As such, quantum physics and relativity may one day be proved to be "wrong", however they will still be "correct" given the proper model.

Even the idea that the Earth is round "could" be overturned one day when we realize that its actually a six-dimensional hyper-cube that is folded in on itself through the seventh dimension....(that is BS...but just as an example ;) )

Science does not find truth.
 
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CabVet

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Do you accept an empty tomb?

Your mindset keeps you from entering the kingdom of Heaven, does it not?

You are not asking if I accept an empty tomb. You are asking if I accept a story about an empty tomb written 200 years after the fact by people who worshiped who was supposed to be at the tomb.

My mindset keeps me from entering your version of Heaven.
 
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AV1611VET

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You are not asking if I accept an empty tomb. You are asking if I accept a story about an empty tomb written 200 years after the fact by people who worshiped who was supposed to be at the tomb.

My mindset keeps me from entering your version of Heaven.
I asked if you accept an empty tomb -- the empty tomb, in fact.

It's a story alright: His story.
 
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sk8Joyful

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"science requires faith".

A lot of people here tend to completely dismiss science simply because they do not understand it.

Don't take me wrong, I am not saying everything I (or any other scientist) says has to be accepted.
What I am saying is that you have to understand an idea before you can reject it.
Then again some of us have worked for decades in fields
where the scientific method, finds itself harmfully:eek: applied.

No, the scientific method (in many cases) is not the problem,
tho in other areas like Health it can be terribly limiting.

When the scientific method is applied harmfully, &
a person is quite aware of the harm, said person would be stupid
to allow its application to her or himself; especially when other ie Helpful means are available.

Just another angle here :wave:
 
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AV1611VET

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Then again some of us have worked for decades in fields
where the scientific method, finds itself harmfully:eek: applied.

No, the scientific method (in many cases) is not the problem,
tho in other areas like Health it can be terribly limiting.

When the scientific method is applied harmfully, &
a person is quite aware of the harm, said person would be stupid
to allow its application to her or himself; especially when other ie Helpful means are available.

Just another angle here :wave:
The scientific method would have kept scientists off the Ark -- as it does today.
 
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