Does the Mandelbrot Set prove the Mind of God behind what we see.

sjastro

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But how can we establish that the 'energy expectation value' can change? I mean wouldn't we need at least one of two things in order to make this claim, either an understanding of what causes the 'energy expectation value' to be what it is, or a sample set of more than one? I presume that we have neither of those two things, so while we can hypothesize about different values, how can we be certain that it's actually possible?
Ironically if you asked me this question a week ago my response would have been the energy expectation value change through vacuum decay is a QFT prediction but there is no evidence to support it.

Hot off the press is that vacuum decay has been discovered in the laboratory.

Popsci link:- New research sheds light on a phenomenon known as 'false vacuum decay'
Peer reviewed paper:- False vacuum decay via bubble formation in ferromagnetic superfluids - Nature Physics

bubble3.png
 
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SelfSim

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"I think we can hypothesize that some other universe's physical constants could be different in the absence of complete knowledge of the initial conditions of this one(?)"
Hmm .. we know we have incomplete knowledge of the initial conditions and on that basis, we can know that the physical constants of any universe would not be constrained(?)
 
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sjastro

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From my previous post a picture tells a thousand words.

1707605829308.png

Expanding on the diagram, FV is the false vacuum, TV is the true vacuum, indicated at points A and C respectively.
The energy vertical axis not shown indicates the VEV (vacuum expectation value) at A and C.

In the false vacuum the ferromagnetic atoms are in the spin up state |↑> , after vacuum decay in the expanded bubble the ferromagnetic atoms are now in the spin down state |↓> and in an entangled state |↕> at the domain wall.
The change in spin state is an example of vacuum decay changing the physics.

The experiment provides a neat simulation of eternal inflation where bubble universes are formed by vacuum decay of the inflaton field and the physics varies in each bubble universe.
No wonder theoretical physicists have expressed interest in the experiment.
 
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Bradskii

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Do we completely know the initial conditions of this universe?

I think we can know that some other universe's physical constants could be different in the absence of complete knowledge of the initial conditions of this one(?)
I'm sure they would be. If the initial conditions were A then we'd live in Universe A. If they were B then we'd live in Universe B etc. 'Fine tuning' makes zero sense to me. It's exactly like saying that the universe was set up in such away to ensure that I would be right here right now writing exactly this.
 
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stevevw

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Yes the fabric of space-time must be the same and shares the same property, the inflaton field is in a false vacuum and undergoes vacuum decay which allows the formation of bubble universes throughout space-time.
So are all those bubble universes, if they evolve to become a universe do they end up with the same physical parameters as our universe. If they do how is this reconciled with the many who say that in a Multiverse there will be universes with different physical parameters.

There could be many other universes, with different physical constants and possibly even different laws. This proposal could explain the origin of our universe and why it is fine-tuned for the development of life.

The String Theory and The Multiverse
The concept of a multiverse is not new, but string theory provides a possible framework for its existence. This would mean an infinite number of parallel universes, each with different physical laws and constants and each with its version of reality.
Old age creationists use the same ex-nihilo argument.
Ok here we go now your trying to back me into some position I am not. If I keep refuting your attributions of me you will keep finding some some angle to make me a creationist.

We could keep going back until we arrive at something like Theistic Evolution and that more or less someone who supports both the science and creation so there is no need to create any false arguements for the God of the gaps. Perhaps this is revealing more about your ideology and assumptions than anything else.
Old earth creationists usually agree with the mainstream scientific estmates of the age of the universe, humanity, and Earth itself while at the same time rejecting the claims of modern evolutionary theorists with respect to biological evolution. Old earth creationists and their young earth creationist brothers hold several important points in common, including:

The literal creation of the universe out of nothing a finite time ago (creation ex nihilo).
Well if you look at my posts on evolution you will find I lean more towards Theistic Evolution so your assuming a lot. They also believe in some sort of creation out of nothing for the first form of life or ingredients for that life. But from that point support the science. The same logic applies for the creation of the universe. We don't like the gaps we want to understand how Gods creation works in scientific terms.
Sure and the thread title and footnote are unfortunate coincidences.
Let's nip this in the bud do you believe in ID?
No I don't believe in ID, creationism or any other organised ideology around Gods creation. Though I do agree with the idea that Mind and Consciousness are fundemental. But that is not necessarily a creationist thing. I tend to like the science behind Wheeler and Henry Stapps ideas about Mind and Observers.

For me I think the science on its own without any religious connotations can reveal God and I like discovering that detail.
So why were you promoting Flemming's ideas which were shown to be crackpot but continued to defend him?
What is obvious in this thread is how you selectively found links such as Flemming to support your confirmation bias.
The confirmation bias leads to the same conclusion..........
I did not know Flemming. All I was concerned about was the part on how the contradictions in the monoploes between local observations and the CMB for which Sabbine and the papers they both cited supported. Unlike you I was not hyper vigelant about the credibility of the source but rather than particular content.

I wasn't defending Flemming and even said once someone pointed out he had no history of mainstream papers that I acknowledged his lack of credibility. I was only defending the particular parts he pointed out which were alos supported by other scientists.

 
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stevevw

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I'm sure they would be. If the initial conditions were A then we'd live in Universe A. If they were B then we'd live in Universe B etc. 'Fine tuning' makes zero sense to me. It's exactly like saying that the universe was set up in such away to ensure that I would be right here right now writing exactly this.
The question I think is 'why' were the intial conditions as such that it produced you and I rather than something else. Considering that there are many conditions perhaps beyond chance that led to you and I.
 
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Bradskii

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The question I think is 'why' were the intial conditions as such that it produced you and I rather than something else. Considering that there are many conditions perhaps beyond chance that led to you and I.
You won't believe what just happened. I walked to the front door and at that exact moment a young girl with red hair drove past in a white Toyota with the rego 909GWN. Now what were the chances that that happened as it did exactly when it did? There are an infinite number of events going back decades, centuries, millions of years that had to happen exactly as they did for it to happen.

There must be some galactically important reason for it. What do you think it is?
 
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partinobodycular

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The question I think is 'why' were the intial conditions as such that it produced you and I rather than something else.

Actually the correct question would be: 'why' were the initial conditions such that it produced conscious beings? Full stop, because everything after that is made superfluous by the simple fact that once you have conscious beings there will always be someone to ask... why me?

Hence the only logical question is... why are there conscious beings? Any further questions, such as why me, are irrelevant.
 
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SelfSim

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You won't believe what just happened. I walked to the front door and at that exact moment a young girl with red hair drove past in a white Toyota with the rego 909GWN. Now what were the chances that that happened as it did exactly when it did? There are an infinite number of events going back decades, centuries, millions of years that had to happen exactly as they did for it to happen.
Uncountable number but bounded .. finite too, I think?

I'm trying to keep track of where we're at in this sub-dicussion. It appears we have concluded that if certain physical constant values elsewhere, are different from our own, then those places would have very different physics. We have an idea (and now evidence for) a mechanism: inflaton field false vacuum transitioning to true vacuum.
If those places started out with different initial conditions, then that alone might define the boundary for those places (or universes). @Bradskii is arguing that for anything we see happening, there is a set of 'infinite' (countless?) events, which would have to recur precisely again for us to observe those things again. @partinobodycular concludes the logical question is: 'Why are there conscious beings to ask: Why me?'

Is that a roughly close summary?
 
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Bradskii

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@Bradskii is arguing that for anything we see happening, there is a set of 'infinite' (countless?) events, which would have to recur precisely again for us to observe those things again.
And no event can be considered special. Least of all us. Least of all me.
 
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partinobodycular

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It appears we have concluded that if certain physical constant values elsewhere, are different from our own, then those places would have very different physics.

That's a pretty big if.

We have an idea (and now evidence for) a mechanism: inflaton field false vacuum transitioning to true vacuum.

Sorry, but I'm not willing to concede this as anything more than a hypothetical. Demonstrating that a false vacuum can transition to a true vacuum, may give you an idea for a mechanism for creating alternate bubble universes, but it's nowhere near demonstrating that such a process would actually work. After all, did the above mentioned experiment actually create a bubble universe? If not, why not? So there must be more to it than simply transitioning from a false vacuum to a true vacuum. So what else is required?

Then again, I don't see how it makes any difference. Whether all universes are shockingly similar, or freakishly different, ours would still seem to be nothing special. In fact, even if our universe was the one and only universe... ever, would it actually be special? How would we know?
 
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carloagal

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Creating animal tissues by "miracle" doesn't determine in anyway how life generally was created on Earth. It just doesn't. If it is a real miracle, it doesn't mean that that is how life started on Earth. If it is fraudulent, it doesn't mean a god didn't create life. It is irrelevant to the origin of Earth life and even more so to evolution.

The only EM I am interested in involves Maxwell's equations.
Your ignorance sir is abysmal
 
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Hans Blaster

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Your ignorance sir is abysmal

How so? As I *clearly* stated in the post you quoted -- NOTHING about euchaistic miracles, however true or false though they may be, says a single thing about how life arose on Earth. Nothing.
 
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sjastro

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So are all those bubble universes, if they evolve to become a universe do they end up with the same physical parameters as our universe. If they do how is this reconciled with the many who say that in a Multiverse there will be universes with different physical parameters.

There could be many other universes, with different physical constants and possibly even different laws. This proposal could explain the origin of our universe and why it is fine-tuned for the development of life.

The String Theory and The Multiverse
The concept of a multiverse is not new, but string theory provides a possible framework for its existence. This would mean an infinite number of parallel universes, each with different physical laws and constants and each with its version of reality.
No they do not end up having the same physical parameters as our universe.
In this thread the terms vacuum expectation value and energy expectation value have been used.
Since quantum mechanics in most interpretations is probabilistic in nature the expectation value is the average of all possible outcomes when a measurement is made.

This also extends to quantum fields where the energy of the field is expressed as an expectation value and being an average value means the vacuum decay of local fields to produce bubble universes can occur for different random energies.
The temperature of the hot BB depends on the amount of energy released during vacuum decay associated with inflation, hence the initial conditions for each bubble universe can vary leading to different physics.

When inflation was first proposed in the late 1970s, the inflaton field was thought to be the Higgs field, the idea has persisted with many scientists and as this thread has shown a deviation in the energy of the false vacuum of the Higgs field can lead to drastic changes in the physics.
Ok here we go now your trying to back me into some position I am not. If I keep refuting your attributions of me you will keep finding some some angle to make me a creationist.

We could keep going back until we arrive at something like Theistic Evolution and that more or less someone who supports both the science and creation so there is no need to create any false arguements for the God of the gaps. Perhaps this is revealing more about your ideology and assumptions than anything else.
I suggest you go back and read what I stated, I asked if you supported ID not creationism.
As you now know ID, YEC and OEC share similar views on creation ex nihilo.
When it comes to my ideology and assumptions, I have made my position perfectly clear as a Christian that God, ID, creationism and the supernatural are unfalsifiable in science.
Well if you look at my posts on evolution you will find I lean more towards Theistic Evolution so your assuming a lot. They also believe in some sort of creation out of nothing for the first form of life or ingredients for that life. But from that point support the science. The same logic applies for the creation of the universe. We don't like the gaps we want to understand how Gods creation works in scientific terms.

No I don't believe in ID, creationism or any other organised ideology around Gods creation. Though I do agree with the idea that Mind and Consciousness are fundemental. But that is not necessarily a creationist thing. I tend to like the science behind Wheeler and Henry Stapps ideas about Mind and Observers.

For me I think the science on its own without any religious connotations can reveal God and I like discovering that detail.
You still have an agenda but under a different name which disagrees with the BB because it does not depend on God’s creation and therefore you are in the wrong forum by pushing this agenda.
I did not know Flemming. All I was concerned about was the part on how the contradictions in the monoploes between local observations and the CMB for which Sabbine and the papers they both cited supported. Unlike you I was not hyper vigelant about the credibility of the source but rather than particular content.

I wasn't defending Flemming and even said once someone pointed out he had no history of mainstream papers that I acknowledged his lack of credibility. I was only defending the particular parts he pointed out which were alos supported by other scientists.
You blindly accepted Flemming without any objectivity because his narrative supported your confirmation bias the BB was wrong.
Your repudiation of him while still trying justification because particular parts of his crank theory were supposedly supported by other scientists is not terribly convincing.
 
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sjastro

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That's a pretty big if.



Sorry, but I'm not willing to concede this as anything more than a hypothetical. Demonstrating that a false vacuum can transition to a true vacuum, may give you an idea for a mechanism for creating alternate bubble universes, but it's nowhere near demonstrating that such a process would actually work. After all, did the above mentioned experiment actually create a bubble universe? If not, why not? So there must be more to it than simply transitioning from a false vacuum to a true vacuum. So what else is required?

Then again, I don't see how it makes any difference. Whether all universes are shockingly similar, or freakishly different, ours would still seem to be nothing special. In fact, even if our universe was the one and only universe... ever, would it actually be special? How would we know?
Cosmology is largely a phenomenological science which studies the effects not the causes.

The causes for these effects come from particle physics experiments and in the case of vacuum decay the recently published laboratory experiment.
The discovery of the Higgs boson confirmed the existence of the Higgs field which plays a significant role in the formation of particles in the early universe while the unification of the electromagnetic and weak forces by discovering the predicted W and Z bosons indicated these forces were unified in the extremely high temperatures of the early universe.
 
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SelfSim

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Sorry, but I'm not willing to concede this as anything more than a hypothetical. Demonstrating that a false vacuum can transition to a true vacuum, may give you an idea for a mechanism for creating alternate bubble universes, but it's nowhere near demonstrating that such a process would actually work. After all, did the above mentioned experiment actually create a bubble universe? If not, why not? So there must be more to it than simply transitioning from a false vacuum to a true vacuum. So what else is required?
So, its supported by several particle discoveries (from predictions), direct observations of the universe, and by lab experiment.
It is well understood in field theory. All this should be sufficient for regarding it as being well within the realms of physical possibility (ie: physically plausible).

The various piece-part concepts supporting the overarching cosmological theory are highly consistent. Try coming up with some other explanation and I'll guarantee it won't come anywhere near this, in terms of convincing objective thinkers.
Then again, I don't see how it makes any difference. Whether all universes are shockingly similar, or freakishly different, ours would still seem to be nothing special. In fact, even if our universe was the one and only universe... ever, would it actually be special? How would we know?
I don't have a clue what 'special' could possibly mean there. I don't have any idea why such a term would even be used in the first place(?)
 
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Kylie

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Ok do you mean direct evidence, like if we went to the other dimension and observed it directly. If that is the case then you can forget about a fair number of scientific ideas that we have never seen direct evidence for.

Those theories we do have some indirect evidence for were predicted by the math, the equations and were well supported even before any indirect evidence was found.

Thats the same maths and equations that predict inflation, multiverses, string theory, time travel, worm holes and dark matter and energy.

I mean I guess I could go and find Guths original paper or other papers with the equations included. But I would doubt you could fully understand them anyway as I have seen some and they are way over my head. But the point is the maths predicts this and has done for other accepted theories including some we have no direct evidence for.

I means Einsteins theory was accepted and it was a blackboard equation before relativity including the idea that clocks can run at different times due to gravity fields was observed and confirmed. If the math is good enough to stand up on its own for these mainstream theories before they were confirmed why not for these counter intuitive ideas predicted.

If we can never confirm some of these ideas directly should we throw them out if the same math predicts them as being real possibilities. Theorectical physics has not had a problem in throwing out ideas that have not been confirmed based on the integrity of the math so why start throwing out ideas that don't fit the current thinking.
Nothing in the math for string theory, inflation or anything else allows us to determine the laws of nature in a universe that is not ours.

If you disagree, then AGAIN I ask you to show me the paper which describes it.
 
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stevevw

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Nothing in the math for string theory, inflation or anything else allows us to determine the laws of nature in a universe that is not ours.

If you disagree, then AGAIN I ask you to show me the paper which describes it.
So you disbelieve the articles that say inflation theory for example predict a multiverse.

The theory of parallel universes is not just maths – it is science that can be tested

Here is the original paper by Alan Guth on Inflation theory but I don't know why you would want it as I don't think you would understand it. I know its over my head. But nevertheless the maths is there for those who know.

Inflation
 
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SelfSim

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So you disbelieve the articles that say inflation theory for example predict a multiverse.

The theory of parallel universes is not just maths – it is science that can be tested

Here is the original paper by Alan Guth on Inflation theory but I don't know why you would want it as I don't think you would understand it. I know its over my head. But nevertheless the maths is there for those who know.

Inflation
There's nothing in that reference which says string theory or inflation, permits determination of physical laws in a universe that is not ours.
(Looks like an attempt at the gish gallop fallacy).
 
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