Does the idol have to be removed before you can be saved?

[faceofbear]

No one has answered my question. If you have fully repented, when was the last time you sinned? If you have sinned since your so called "conversion," then you have not repented. God doesn't save someone because they are willing to give up sin. God saves someone without merit because He chose to. Not because someone chose to repent, not because someone chose to believe, but because God made them born again.

To those who say, "Well you have to be willing to give everything to Christ." No you don't. Do you even know what all Christ demands? Cause if you don't and if you don't have this in the forefront of your mind at your conversion, you aren't saved either. Salvation is simple. It's grace. Christ died for the ungodly.

It's so funny to me how people say, "God forbid we are saved by obeying the law, it's by faith alone!" Then they turn around and say, "BUT YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO OBEY THE LAW COMPLETELY OR GOD WON'T SAVE YOU." That is the same hypocrisy as bringing a believer back under the law. When certain believers were saved in the New Testament, they were rejoicing in their freedom. That is, it didn't even cross their minds that they must obey Christ's commands. In fact, they were enjoying their freedom by indulging in sin! But Paul rebuked them begging the question why they would want to be enslaved back into sin when Christ had poured Himself over for them.

Who here has sold all their possessions and given to the poor? Because if you haven't you're not saved. Why? Because that's what Christ demands. That is 100% repentance. Oh, and while were at it. Unless you have 100% perfect faith, you can't be saved ever either. If you ever have doubts, you're not saved. While were playing this 100% card, can someone please explain to me what measure we are going by to know whether it's 100%? Because 100% repentance means that I have the perfection of God, and 100% faith means I have the faith of God. Does anyone have that? I do. But not because I've repented 100%, nor because I believe 100%. But because I am in Christ who IS my holiness, my righteousness, and my pardon.

It's absolutely ridiculous to me how many people wish to bring people who aren't even saved back under the law so subtly. "No, you don't have to obey the law, you just have to want to obey the law." What the heck is the difference. If I want to obey the law, I will obey the law, but I am not saved by want of obeying the law, nor obeying the law. I am saved by Christ. Give me an example of someone in scripture who repented perfectly and who believe perfectly. One person. Please, than at least I will reconsider my position. Oh, and I mean one person other than Christ. Because I've yet to find that person, so I very much less doubt those claiming to have fully repented, have fully repented, or have rid their lives of all idols. If you 100% repent, you will NEVER sin again, and who here has never sinned since conversion? Show of hands please.

How about we stop entangling people back under the law and point them to Christ and the Gospel, which actually saves and is not bondage to slavery of obedience and asceticism. But is actually freedom, and let the Holy Spirit work out repentance in them. Rather than giving commands that were never to be taken literally. I mean, I'm guessing you haven't cut off your hands or plucked out your eyes if your typing here. But maybe since you haven't sold all your possessions to give to the poor, you hired yourself someone to do that for you.

It's literally appalling how subtle legalism gets taught and how so few literally just rest on Christ, but rather rest on THEIR repentance and THEIR faith and THEIR prayer to God. None of which will save them.

I've sat under people saying, "Well, you HAVE to be willing to do this that and the other." Oh really? Have you done this that and the other since you've been saved? So, why are you demanding it from others if you are hypocrites of the commands you are giving.

These commands were given to believers:
"For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; hat ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

That doesn't sound like the gospel others are giving here. And in fact, that isn't the Gospel. These were the commands given to believers. And why? Well, it would be my guess that believers were indulging in these things, else-wise the commands would be pointless.

But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

-Paul the Apostle​

 

[BeeWrangler]

We are to always be growing in the Lord. When we first come to God we are sinners, and we always will be sinners while we are here on earth. but the more we grow the less we will sin. Our sin is washed clean with the blood of Jesus. However we are to always put God first, anything we spend time with more than God is an idol. (people say well we have to work, we can not be reading the bible 24/7. this is true, but we can pray and praise God while we work and do daily things) Luke 16:13
"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
Revelation 3:16 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."
We should see ourselves growing like a seed, into a sprout, into a tree. We do not start out a tree. it is when we grow for a while then stop, that is luke warm. When we say "I can sin because Jesus died for me" that means you stopped growing. Look how far Jesus' disciples grew, as you read through the NT you will see thier faith growing and growing as the become more Christ-like.
What I am trying to say is when you feel conviction (I can tell you do or you would not have posted this) then it is the Holy Spirit leading you. You should make shure whatever you do is not being done more than the time you spend with God, or being involved with God. Even if you are praying or giving thanks to God in your mind, that is spending time with him.
Mark 4
And again He began to teach by the sea. And a great multitude was gathered to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole multitude was on the land facing the sea. Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His teaching:
“Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it. Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”
And He said to them, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

 

[faceofbear]

We are to always be growing in the Lord. When we first come to God we are sinners, but our sin is washed clean with the blood of Jesus. However we are to always put God first, anything we spend time with more than God is an idol. (people say well we have to work, we can not be reading the bible 24/7. this is true, but we can pray and praise God while we work and do daily things) Luke 16:13
"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
Revelation 3:16 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."
We should see ourselves growing like a seed, into a sprout, into a tree. We do not start out a tree. it is when we grow for a while then stop, that is luke warm. When we say "I can sin because Jesus died for me" that means you stopped growing. Look how far Jesus' disciples grew, as you read through the NT you will see thier faith growing and growing as the become more Christ-like.
What I am trying to say is when you feel conviction (I can tell you do or you would not have posted this) then it is the Holy Spirit leading you. You should make shure whatever you do is not being done more than the time you spend with God, or being involved with God. Even if you are praying or giving thanks to God in your mind, that is spending time with him.
Mark 4
And again He began to teach by the sea. And a great multitude was gathered to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole multitude was on the land facing the sea. Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His teaching:
“Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it. Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”
And He said to them, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

But salvation isn't equated to doing, but believing and then the doing.

 

[faceofbear]

Were either of these two even saved to begin with? especially the corinthians?

In regards to this, in Galatians 2, Paul assumes they have received the Holy Spirit already. And in 1 Corinthians 3, Paul addresses them as brothers who are babes in Christ, as being carnal, not Spiritual... simply babes in Christ. A babe in Christ is someone born again. Or they wouldn't be a "babe."

 

[BeeWrangler]

But salvation isn't equated to doing, but believing and then the doing.

Exactly, a Christian needs to believe first, then learn and grow. But one can not simply believe and not continue to grow. That would be like the seed that feel upon the rocks. It only grows so much then stops, "lukewarm"

 

[RobertZ]

Great post guys, please keep them coming. I ended up selling my Video Card last night on ebay and will be breaking down the rest of the PC to sell off the other parts. I still have a laptop that I can use just so I can use the internet and thats all I really need.

Im not trying to do this to earn my salvation because im now convinced that parting out with idols in order to try to earn Gods favor is never going to happen, im getting rid of it simply because I believe that at this time its the right thing for me to do.

 

[faceofbear]

Great post guys, please keep them coming. I ended up selling my Video Card last night on ebay and will be breaking down the rest of the PC to sell off the other parts. I still have a laptop that I can use just so I can use the internet and thats all I really need.

Im not trying to do this to earn my salvation because im now convinced that parting out with idols in order to try to earn Gods favor is never going to happen, im getting rid of it simply because I believe that at this time its the right thing for me to do.

Good job man. I know it's difficult to do.

 

[RobertZ]

Good job man. I know it's difficult to do.

Yes, it nearly killed me, lol. Now I have to break down the rest of the stuff and sell it before im tempted to buy another video card.

 

[faceofbear]

Yes, it nearly killed me, lol. Now I have to break down the rest of the stuff and sell it before im tempted to buy another video card.

Once you get rid of it, you'll be a lot happier. At least that was my experience. I don't know why I built another PC. I mean, I know why, but it really was only a waste of money. I was so much happier without it. And I'm currently too impatient to deal with the pain of my laptop or netbook because of how slow it is. I mean, 5 minutes to boot up just REALLY irks me. Then you wait 30+ seconds for a stupid document to open. Or I can just use my newly built PC and boot up in 20 seconds or less, and everything open instantly as soon as I log on... but I know if I don't keep busy, I'll fall back into a gaming addiction.

 

[Anihilus]

If you define repentance as perfectly turning from sin you have a wrong definition of repentance. If you look at scripture, repentance is a change of mind that leads to a forsaking of sin. Look at the prodical, Zaccheus, the guys in acts that burned their scrolls, etc... Repentance ALWAYS leads to turning from sin, if it does not, your repentance is false. Repentance is NOT some work that you do where you abstain from sinning for a while and become worthy of salvation.

If you are holding on to something that is causing you to sin and don't get rid of it, you will perish. That is what Jesus said very clearly in Matthew 5:30

"And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."

You cannot dance around this text.

You can't scripturally argue that there can be salvation without biblical repentance. True repentance is so interwoven with faith that you cannot have one without the other. You may be able to throw out a bunch of your theology and argue on the basis of that, but you cannot argue for a salvation without repentance from the scripture.

I know what it is to get caught up in the whole "how do I repent" and "how much repentance is enough" and "how long do I have to wait after I repent for God to save me?" business. I had a wrong idea of what repentance was. I made it into a work that I had to do enough of so that God would save me, and then when I would not meet that standard I would blame God for not granting me repentance.

Be careful of knowing what things really mean so that you don't define them on the basis of what you think they are.

Robert, forsake it utterly and turn to Christ. Don't leave yourself open for a way back in case things don't work out. If you do, Satan will come to you at that point and plead with you on it.

 

[faceofbear]

You're misunderstanding me because I agree with you Anihilus, but I believe the answer, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved," is sufficient enough for salvation. My correction is on not making repentance a legality issue and a necessity for salvation, when it's not, it's something that comes with salvation. The mistake is that people say, "Well, you have to repent of your sins." True. But you also must be born again. You must also obey Christ thoroughly and completely where He demands it. You must also walk as Christ walked. You must also be baptized. You must also eat and drink of His blood. There's a lot of things that we must do (and most of us don't do -- but we are still saved and being saved and will be saved), but they are all things that come with time and with the salvation God offers. Repentance is a change of mind. I cannot choose to have a change of mind, it is something God works through me by faith to turn from sin. Repentance isn't simply "turning from sin." It's having a change of mind about that sin, which one cannot do without the work of the Holy Spirit, and this repentance is in no way a legalistic means of salvation because: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved," is how we are saved, or else that entire phrase is a complete lie according to those demanding repentance. YES, there must be repentance for a genuine faith, but this doesn't mean that it is an instantaneous act that saves you. The only thing that ever saves is Christ's blood. Period. And that is imputed to sinners through faith, though Christ died for them and chose them and made them alive prior to their faith. Robert, or anyone, "fleeing sin" for the sake of fleeing sin is no different than being a hypocritical, self-righteous Pharisee, which I am convinced, that many protestants believe repentance is fleeing sin, not because I'm guessing this is true, but because of by the legality people make of repentance. Repentance is not fleeing sin. It's having a change of mind about the sufficiency of Christ, which comes from a deep conviction of sin to prove that none other can save to the sinner, which leads to a change of mind about sin, which leads to a change of action. If anyone is trusting faith or repentance to save them, then they terribly, TERRIBLY, misunderstand the Gospel. Commanding someone dead in their sins to turn from their sins is like telling a baby to stop being a baby. You can't change your nature, it's something God brings forth in the sinner under deep conviction through the Gospel and once He choosing to bear them again, it's then that the sinner repents. Again, not out of legality, but out of hatred for what it's done to Christ, who redeemed them not by faith, nor by repentance, but by His blood that He poured out for His people. He gave Himself over for a propitiation. That's why we repent.... NOT to be saved, but because HE SAVED US through His death, the putting away of our sins, and by His resurrection, having us justified.

And unless this is properly understood, repentance of sins, and faith, are just another work that people will be saying, "But Lord, Lord, did I not repent of my sins? Did I not have faith? Did I not accept you as my Savior? Did I not pray the sinners prayer?" But because faith and repentance are not built on the living hope and rock of Jesus Christ, and are only sinking sand, Christ will say to those, "Depart from me, for I never knew you." The only plea can be, "But Lord, did you not give yourself up for me, a wretched sinner? Did You not have mercy on me?" It is only about what Christ has done for those He loved with an everlasting salvific love. Not us. Ever. If you, or anyone, thinks they are saved BECAUSE they believe or BECAUSE they repented, I can tell you now that they are not saved. BECAUSE one is ONLY saved by Christ.

 

[DeaconDean]

Lets say a person has something in their life that could be an idol "such as a gaming computer". Is it Biblical to say that until the idol has been removed that God would withhold salvation from that individual until the person first rid himself of the idol?

The rich young ruler comes to mind here, had the rich young ruler sold all of his idols then Jesus would have saved him right?

Interesting.

I have a simple philosophy regarding this after listening to Oliver B. Greene preaching one night.

In church, we sing:

Just As I Am

VERSE #1
Just as I am, without one plea,
But that thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidd'st me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

VERSE #2
Just as I am, and waiting not,
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

VERSE #3
Just as I am, tho' tossed about,
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings within and fears without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

VERSE #4
Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind,
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need in Thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

VERSE #5
Just as I am, Thou wilt recieve,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve,
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

VERSE #6
Just as I am, Thy love unknown,
Hath broken every barrier down;
Now to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

BibleKeeper.com - Study The Bible Online!



Ask yourself, do you come to God and let Him clean you up? Or, must you clean yourself up before you come to God?

For me, the answer is simple:

Just as I am, Thou wilt recieve,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve,
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[98cwitr]

Good job, Robert...

 

[faceofbear]

Interesting.

I have a simple philosophy regarding this after listening to Oliver B. Greene preaching one night.

In church, we sing:

Just As I Am

VERSE #1
Just as I am, without one plea,
But that thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidd'st me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

VERSE #2
Just as I am, and waiting not,
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

VERSE #3
Just as I am, tho' tossed about,
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings within and fears without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

VERSE #4
Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind,
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need in Thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

VERSE #5
Just as I am, Thou wilt recieve,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve,
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

VERSE #6
Just as I am, Thy love unknown,
Hath broken every barrier down;
Now to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

BibleKeeper.com - Study The Bible Online!



Ask yourself, do you come to God and let Him clean you up? Or, must you clean yourself up before you come to God?

For me, the answer is simple:

Just as I am, Thou wilt recieve,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve,
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[RobertZ]

I need prayer guys, several times today I have placed an order for a new video card but cancelled it shortly after. Im afraid im gonna break, sometimes its as if my soul is gonna be ripped into two pieces by this fight!

 

[faceofbear]

Robert,
Are you doing this to earn salvation, or because Christ died for you?

 

[RobertZ]

Robert,
Are you doing this to earn salvation, or because Christ died for you?

Thats the golden question, I think im doing it because im terrified that God will not save me unless I do it. This is exhausting........

 

[faceofbear]

Thats the golden question, I think im doing it because im terrified that God will not save me unless I do it. This is exhausting........

Read that book I sent you via PM. You're still self-righteous. That book won't take long to read, the actual book itself is only like 90 pages, the copy I have anyways. Belief, repentance, etc. are not works we do to be saved. Belief embraces what has been done and the salvation is in the object of it's trust, not the belief itself. Belief just trusts what is finished, it's not a meritorious work, and repentance is a result of that belief because of what Christ has done for us.

Repentance isn't even a WORK though Robert. It's a change of mind (and this change of mind inevitably leads to a work). You giving up things isn't repentance. It's a legalistic deed.

You're self-righteous and still want to play part of your salvation. You aren't believing what IS done. And you are calling God a liar unless you embrace His testimony. But note, embracing His testimony isn't a work. It's doing nothing. It's passive. It's trusting what has been done to save you. You simply don't want to believe because you hate that you are incapable of saving yourself, but this is the only thing that will save you. Christ said to the Pharisees who were very righteous, at least outwardly, "unless you repent (change your mind) you will surely die in your sins." Even if you were as righteous as a Pharisee, Robert, you still need to repent. Of what? Of unbelief. The only thing that will condemn you is your unbelief. But don't think of it as a legal work, rather think of it as a passive trust, because belief is interchangeable for trust.

Again, read that book I sent you. I think it'll help.

 

[RobertZ]

You're self-righteous and still want to play part of your salvation. You aren't believing what IS done.

This is the hardest part for me to understand. Its hard for me to understand how their is nothing that I can do because I mean doesnt God call and then we choose to respond to his call? When we choose to respond to his call is that not something that we do?

 

[JSGuitarist]

I've heard it said that if your Gospel doesn't cause people to say, "What, so we can sin so that grace may be glorified?", then we aren't preaching the Gospel.

None of Peter or Paul or any of the apostles were afraid of the abuses that people would make of the Gospel, nor were they afraid that they made it too free or unconstricted or unguarded, nor did it worry them that they preached in such a way that a man may be saved on the spot, and not after a long haul of agony, inner wrestling and preparationism. It really is like the Israelites in the wilderness who, to be healed of the snake bites, only had to look at the bronze serpent and they would be healed; thus it is, in the words of Christ, that whoever looks upon Christ the way they glanced at that bronze snake is saved (John 3:15). It takes no effort at all to look; a man doesn't need a seminary education to look. An infant could do it.

"But if I believe that, then I might run into sin because the grace is so free!" Run anyways. It is the only Gospel that exists. It's either by that one you're saved, or none. As a friend told me, it really is as good as it sounds.