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May I offer you some reading material?
I would love for you to understand better.
On the Incarnation by St. Anthanasius; Why Christ Came, Died and was Resurrected
If the facts don't matter.. then why are you here?
God is not capable of SIN. The OT rulers misunderstood the LAW (Which is Christ God), That is why Christ came to complete it.
God is perfect.... CHRIST IS GOD. Christ is the "LOGOS" (THE WORD OF GOD) See the first chapter of John.
Even if God did something that we considered to be SIN, It would be us that are wrong and he that is right.
He is the creator. What he says and what he does is perfect.
We do not set the bar. He does.
Forgive me....
DaveS said:He consistently worked on the Sabbath,
So did the priests who offered sacrifices on the Sabbath so they wouldn't break God's Laws. They didn't sin either. The Pharisees added 613 laws to "explain" God's Laws. They even went so far as to cover their drinking glass with fabric so they wouldn't drink a gnat (a very small unclean animal); God never ordered this. God works on the Sabbath to keep the universe going and to take care of people. He isn't sinning either.
You can't go by what the Pharisees said. They were wrong. Jesus said so.
He claimed that He was God (while this was true, it is still a sin by OT laws),
It isn't wrong if it is true. He was and is God. The OT is filled with prophecies saying that God would come in human form. Like Isaiah 7:14. Emmanuel means God with us.
By the way, please show me in the OT where it is wrong to claim you're God if you are God.
he disobeyed his elders (Pharisees)
In Acts it is said, "We must obey God rather than Man." Those Pharisees are the same ones who said that they had no king but Caesar. God wasn't their king anymore. If your elders are wrong and doing and teaching what God says is wrong, disobey them.
and He most probably ate 'unclean' food as He preached that nothing is unclean.
Prove to me that Jesus ate anything unclean. Slander is to defile someone's reputation. Please don't slander my Lord.
By OT laws these are all sins - some even ranking against the Ten Commandments.
I personally believe that this requirement for Jesus to be free of Sin is pointless anyway - afterall did he not take on the sins of the entire world and go to Hell because of it? It was only His power as God (or whatever) that allowed Him to defeat Satan and break Hell thus allowing everyone to gain immortal life. People forget that the most important part of Jesus's time actually occured when he was "dead".
One last post for me on this thread:
Please read the book recommended to you and ask God to reveal His Truth to you.
I'll pray for you.
I'll pray for you.
Sigh! You really don't get it. I feel sorry for you...I'll pray for your enlightenment.
So did the priests who offered sacrifices on the Sabbath so they wouldn't break God's Laws. They didn't sin either. The Pharisees added 613 laws to "explain" God's Laws. They even went so far as to cover their drinking glass with fabric so they wouldn't drink a gnat (a very small unclean animal); God never ordered this. God works on the Sabbath to keep the universe going and to take care of people. He isn't sinning either.
You can't go by what the Pharisees said. They were wrong. Jesus said so.
It isn't wrong if it is true. He was and is God. The OT is filled with prophecies saying that God would come in human form. Like Isaiah 7:14. Emmanuel means God with us.
By the way, please show me in the OT where it is wrong to claim you're God if you are God.
In Acts it is said, "We must obey God rather than Man." Those Pharisees are the same ones who said that they had no king but Caesar. God wasn't their king anymore. If your elders are wrong and doing and teaching what God says is wrong, disobey them.
Prove to me that Jesus ate anything unclean. Slander is to defile someone's reputation. Please don't slander my Lord.
I doubt anyone here thinks you are going to Hell for misunderstanding.
They mean that they will pray for your enlightenment.... so that you will understand.
There are only two directions you can go concerning salvation....
Towards God or away from God....
Are you moving towards God? If so then don't worry about Christ he will keep his end of the bargain.
You just keep moving towards God.
Forgive me.....
DaveS said:You would be surprised. 'I will pray for you' is a code phrase universally used against liberals when someone basically can't argue against you, but still believes themselves to be correct simply because it is what they have always believed. It is also incredibly infuriating to receive it as it is the debate equivalent to the playground, 'I'm right and I don't care what you say because I will always be right!'.
I think you are making an assumption of their beliefs. That is not the way the Orthodox use the term.
It's very short (for a book).DaveS said:Well, it is a book and I don't have exactly all the time in the world to read it all in about 2 days. I will read it when I have a bit of time.
Actually, OrthodoxyUSA was correct in the way I meant it.DaveS said:While it is an assumption (will always be) it is one based on quite a lot of experience. It is a way of getting out of a debate while not actually dealing with the issues but still claiming a "victory".
The post by catwoman2 illustrates this beautifully.
Actually, OrthodoxyUSA was correct in the way I meant it.
I pray that you understand that Jesus is God and perfect.
Go in peace, my friend. I'll be praying for you that one day you do understand.
Now I'll be going on to other threads...
Anything I say won't matter because you don't understand. You seem to be saying that the Pharisees' interpetation of Mosaic Law was correct and that Christ sinned by: claiming to be God, working on a Sabaath day and not obeying the Pharisees. You don't understand what I said in response to these points.
Your assumption that the Pharisees being right boggles my mind, frankly. And a commandment that was meant to guide us from having false gods is being used against God Himself who took on human flesh in the Incarnation.
Christ Himself remarks on the Sabbath Day in Matthew 12. If I had a choice as to listen to people or God, I'd choose God anyday.
You basically are saying that God should obey sinful man if they are His elders according to the flesh.
You don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, you do believe that He sinned and you don't think His being a "sinner" makes any difference. Evil doesn't dwell with God. Simple.
DaveS said:Hi,
[rant] Over recent years there has been an upsurge in the debate over whether Christ was:
A) God and the Messiah or
B) The Messiah, but not God
This debate had caused much anger and has split apart the Christian community with various sides claiming that others are not "Christian" because they believe in a different type of Trinity or because they believe that Christ was only God after a certain event etc. etc. It has also split apart religions with one of the main disagreements between Islam and Christianity being the divinity of Christ. Islam of course believing that Christ is not God.
All of this seems to prevent good, it blocks the real meaning of what Christ does - he is saving every one of us! Isn't that truly amazing?? He is saving the entire human race and taking all sin upon himself! Wow!
Instead of focusing on this and actively spreading the word and doing as Christ showed us we are backstabbing, name calling and becoming several groups of supremacists each believing that they are the right way, this is not Christ's way. Christ's way is to show love and compassion to all, regardless of petty theological beliefs (case in point, Samaritans) and differences. All he would care about is that we are spreading his base word, that of eternal love and safety open to all.
Why all the hate associated with this relatively small theological detail and all theology in general?
[/rant]
Note: I am not saying don't discuss theology, I myself really enjoy a theological debate. However, I do not see why it often seems more important than the whole meaning of Christianity and often prompts this horrible, self-righteous behaviour that is actively detrimental to all the Christ stands for.
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