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Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment for unbelievers?

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Timothew

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Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment in store for unbelievers?

According to Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.

According to 2 Thessalonians 1:9, The penalty to be paid is destruction, not eternal torment.

According to the book of revelation, the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.

According to John 3:16, the fate of those who reject Christ is to perish, not suffer eternal torment.

According to Ezekiel, the soul who sins will die, not suffer eternal torment.

According to Jesus Christ, the road is wide that leads to destruction. He said destruction, not eternal torment.

According to God (recorded in Genesis) the result of sin is death and being returned to dust, not eternal torment.

According to the bible, there is no hell of eternal torment, there is only life in Christ or death without Christ.
 

Grumpy Old Man

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Firstly, thanks for doing this thread.

According to the book of revelation, the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.

If there is a second death, what is the first? Do unbelievers go into some kind of stasis? What about the great white throne judgement? Where does that fit in?

Also, when Jesus talks about the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" that unbelievers will go through, what does he mean?

From what you're saying, you seem to be implying that when an unbeliever dies, that's it, they're dead. However, there seems to be some evidence (from scripture) to support the notion that unbelievers (and believers) are judged then sent to their "final destination". I'm just wondering were this stuff fits in with your exegesis.
 
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Timothew

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Firstly, thanks for doing this thread.
Thanks for playing along! :wave:
If there is a second death, what is the first? Do unbelievers go into some kind of stasis? What about the great white throne judgement? Where does that fit in?
The first death is death, just as we know it. Everyone dies, right?
What I believe is that everyone dies and rots away. Believers and Nonbelievers. They are not conscious at this time. This view is denigrated by the hell-supporters as "soul-sleep".
I believe the bible teaches that there will be a resurrection of everyone at the last day. This is also taught by the Nicene Creed.
"I believe in the resurrection of the body".
The second death occurs after the resurrection. If someone doesn't receive eternal life, they unfortunately wouuld go to their second death. This is death, but because it is the second death, it is called the second death. The great white throne judgment is the judgment on judment day where Christ determines who will recieve eternal life and who will not.
Also, when Jesus talks about the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" that unbelievers will go through, what does he mean?
This is their anger and sorrow at being sent away from eternal life. If you were being sent to your death, what would your reaction be? Probably either sorrow (weeping) or anger (gnashing teeth).
From what you're saying, you seem to be implying that when an unbeliever dies, that's it, they're dead. However, there seems to be some evidence (from scripture) to support the notion that unbelievers (and believers) are judged then sent to their "final destination". I'm just wondering were this stuff fits in with your exegesis.
According to the bible, the "final destination" for those who refuse eternal life is death. It can't be eternal life in hell. Eternal life is only for those who receive eternal life from Christ.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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This is their anger and sorrow at being sent away from eternal life. If you were being sent to your death, what would your reaction be? Probably either sorrow (weeping) or anger (gnashing teeth).

Speaking personally, I would probably be relieved I wasn't being sent to hell for eternity. Permanent death doesn't actually sound that bad compared to an eternity in hell. And, being honest, I'll be dead, so therefore I won't really care about missing out on eternal life.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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The first death is death, just as we know it. Everyone dies, right?
What I believe is that everyone dies and rots away. Believers and Nonbelievers. They are not conscious at this time. This view is denigrated by the hell-supporters as "soul-sleep". .

This seems to be in line with what the Old Testament teaches. In my old thread on Hell, I argued (after reading something by someone else on these forums) that Hell wasn't preached in the Old Testament. Sheol is described as the grave and no such thing as eternal punishment can be found in the OT. Hell (or what the church teaches as Hell) only makes its appearance in the NT.

I think there is a lot of validity in what you're saying here. Maybe the church did get it wrong after all. In which case, the question is why they've been teaching an eternal hell all these years - a genuine misunderstanding of scripture or something more sinister?
 
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Eudaimonist

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Okay, how about this:

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41-46


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Fireinfolding

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Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment in store for unbelievers?

In the parable it speaks of a place of torment (after one has died) as did the rich man and Lazarus

Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Cant be eternal given hell (as well as death) delivers up those called the dead up which were in them

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell 86 delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The parable speaks of the torments as well....

Luke 16:23 And in hell 86 he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

According to Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.

Death had passed onto all men (this we know) and Christ died for sinners as this we know, and was raised for our justification

This was also said in the parable of the rich man

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Which is consistent with Jesus words...

John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

For he had said had they believed Moses they would have believed me, and Abraham points his attention back to Moses and the prophets, they have "these" and to hear them. But if they hear not them they will not believe even though one rose from the dead (even as Jesus did).

However, why would death AND hell be mentioned? There were dead in both of "them" as shown in revelation.

According to 2 Thessalonians 1:9, The penalty to be paid is destruction, not eternal torment.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Job 31:3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Here...
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workersof iniquity.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


According to the book of revelation, the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.

Death and hell cast into the lake of fire is the second death

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The dead were first given up out of death and hell so death was administered however, here....

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


And also....

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So there is more written of these things

According to John 3:16, the fate of those who reject Christ is to perish, not suffer eternal torment.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,but have everlasting life.

Passing from death is also in the present tense

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Just as abiding in death (still) is also in the present tense

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Likewise...

1John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Their might be room with "have their part" to consider and go forward with, however at the same time we cannot void the torment mentioned in relation to the same but

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So theres things to consider and expound upon, not just write off, we have heard of the warning in adding or taking away from the words of the prophecy of this book right?

According to Ezekiel, the soul who sins will die, not suffer eternal torment.

Just as Adam sinned, all have sinned

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

According to God (recorded in Genesis) the result of sin is death and being returned to dust, not eternal torment.

As it says....

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

According to the bible, there is no hell of eternal torment, there is only life in Christ or death without Christ.

In the parable Jesus uses, its called a "the place if this torment". So saying there is no such place simply because he used a parable (which is a likeness) the same used for the Kingdom of God would be to contradict the parable. It also does not adress both death and hell from where the dead (themselves) are delivered up from to prove your standpoint. Rather then simply show that hell does not exist (at all) or is not eternal simply by shown "delivering up" of the dead in the same (and cast into the lake of fire) shows a second death there and hell being very present. I think thats where voiding things out (cuts of the ears) because it shows a place called death and hell (same used in the parable) in revelation as a place where the dead are. Voiding it is not dealing with those verses. It will cause others to doubt your workmanship in the scriptures and hearing your point. Well, at least those who would call those others to your attention. The same same spoken of in the parable which speaks to the place of "this torment" unto which Abraham points out to the man, let them hear Moses and the prophets, because of they will not hear them they will not believe if someone rose from the dead. You can show your point thats its not eternal (as in length of time) as the words in revelation likewise show, but theres alot of exclusion as well.
 
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Tariki

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Okay, how about this:

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41-46


eudaimonia,

Mark

Mark, William Barclay - who became a Universalist, as declared explicitly in his book "Testament of Faith" - spoke specifically of this passage. (Barclay has translated the entire NT into English and written commentaries on every book)
The Greek apparently for eternal punishment is "aionios kolasis."

Barclay informs us that the Greek word "kolasis" derives from the pruning of trees, and became a word used soley for remedial punishment. Then speaking of "aionios" he says that Plato - who possibly invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be "aionios". So exactly what is "aionios kolasis" that the rejected are sent away to? Add to the conundrum the fact that Jesus would have spoken Aramaic anyway, so one translation has already been made before we even get to the Greek, and what exactly do we have? Barclay himself comes to the conclusion that it is "the remedial punishement that only God can give."

But to be honest, who knows? This is the "treacherous sea of language", yet chosen by God to communicate "truth" to us. And some would claim that "He" would have ensured, no matter the various translations and copyist errors, that the meaning remains clear. Well, we see that such is not so, the evidence being this entire debate........where human beings apparently need analysis of words to convince themselves that the God of Love would not torture people without end.

All power to Timothew's elbow, yet even the "second death" and being led away to annihilation etc etc.....exactly what words are being used and what did they originally mean, and what will they mean in another 1000 years of analysis and Christian equivocation as they seek to determine the fate of human beings according to a text?

If we want pictures, how about the idea that we are all individual drops of water in a river flowing down to the sea, and the sea will accept us all. And eventually the warmth of the sun will cause condensation to rise, form clouds, and rain will fall..........No argument for anything there, either reincarnation or anything else. Just a picture, and to me a far better one than a sequence of deaths and judgement and the separation of the sheep and the goats, and so on and so on..........

Just how tired can anyone get of this sort of stuff?
 
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Tariki

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Matthew 25:46. Same word used to describe life with God as without end is the same word used to describe punishment, so punishment is without end. That's all I have to say as there is no way around it.

Hi elopez, Thomas Talbot, in his book "The Inescapable Love of God", deals with this very point. And comes to the conclusion that in fact the two references to "eternal" can indeed reference two different "durations".

Obviously you will wish to look this up, as the Book of Proverbs states "He who answers a thing before he heareth it, it is a shame and a folly unto him." So you will obviously wish to read Talbot's book - and his full argument - before repeating what you have just posted.

:)
 
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pinkputter

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Hi elopez, Thomas Talbot, in his book "The Inescapable Love of God", deals with this very point. And comes to the conclusion that in fact the two references to "eternal" can indeed reference two different "durations".

Obviously you will wish to look this up, as the Book of Proverbs states "He who answers a thing before he heareth it, it is a shame and a folly unto him." So you will obviously wish to read Talbot's book - and his full argument - before repeating what you have just posted.

:)

Our religion isn't based off other people's "opinions" our religion isn't even solely philosophy. It is God's word. That's all we need.

Unlike other belief systems, our doesn't change because some one has a better argument for said topic. What are you gonna do when someone else comes out with this "ground breaking" book that's supposed to be the answers to all lifes questions?
 
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Tariki

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Our religion isn't based off other people's "opinions" our religion isn't even solely philosophy. It is God's word. That's all we need.

Unlike other belief systems, our doesn't change because some one has a better argument for said topic. What are you gonna do when someone else comes out with this "ground breaking" book that's supposed to be the answers to all lifes questions?

So you have never listened to another regarding your faith? Your "relationship" with the divine has been borne purely from yourself and the Bible?

Unlike other "belief" systems? All faiths, in very profound ways, make a distinction between "beliefs" and faith. And all deal in a relationship of some sort.

As far as your last comment, I have no answers to "life's questions" in the sense they could be amended by the latest best seller.

Really, pinkputter, stop this "superiority" game. It demeans you.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:41-46

Couldn't "eternal punishment" simply mean that they'll be gone forever, destroyed once and for all?

It'd be interesting to learn where the authors of the New Testament got their idea of a dual afterlife from to begin with, seeing how no such concept existed in (Proto-)Judaism:

The Jews knew but one afterlife: She'ol, a rather unpleasant shadow-world that was the abode of ALL deceased souls until the day of bodily resurrection. The righteous could find shelter in the Bosom of Abraham, of course, but it was still the same place.

Many compare the Christian conception of the afterlife to the Greek Hades, where the Elysian fields are a rather happy place and Tartarus awaits those who've angered the gods, but I think the model is more likely to be found in Zoroastrian mythology and its distinctly dualistic qualities.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Aionios is simply the adjective form of the word aion, "age".

It doesn't intrinsically mean "endless duration", but rather speaks of an undefined duration.

I'm completely comfortable, and in fact it is specifically my prayer and hope, that Hell doesn't last perpetually.

Some of the ancient arguments that questioned Perpetualism had to do with what St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, namely that after Christ defeats the last enemy, Death, and hands all things over to His Father, that God will be "all in all". It's part of a larger conundrum, if into eternity there is a segment of reality still unreconciled then is evil truly dealt with, can it be said that God is all in all?

It's why I don't think Christianity can fall dogmatically on this issue and simply must leave all things to God. It's a longstanding and ancient hope of the Christian Church, to hope and pray for the universal reconciliation of all.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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OP,

Why are you beating the dead horse?

Because I asked him to start this thread up.

Sadly, it seems that the Bible is, once again, unclear on what it teaches. That, or Christians are unclear on what the Bible is saying. Is it really such a hard thing to ask of a deity that they leave behind clear instructions?

The only way to explain such differences of opinion on Scriptural interpretation as evidenced by this thread is that the Bible is littered with contradictions. And this is to be expected really, seeing as it was written by so many different authors over hundreds of years.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Couldn't "eternal punishment" simply mean that they'll be gone forever, destroyed once and for all?

It'd be interesting to learn where the authors of the New Testament got their idea of a dual afterlife from to begin with, seeing how no such concept existed in (Proto-)Judaism:

The Jews knew but one afterlife: She'ol, a rather unpleasant shadow-world that was the abode of ALL deceased souls until the day of bodily resurrection. The righteous could find shelter in the Bosom of Abraham, of course, but it was still the same place.

Many compare the Christian conception of the afterlife to the Greek Hades, where the Elysian fields are a rather happy place and Tartarus awaits those who've angered the gods, but I think the model is more likely to be found in Zoroastrian mythology and its distinctly dualistic qualities.

This is what I am finding,

The two are shown (side by side) whether in hebrew or in greek. Whether of "death" maveth with shĕ'owl hell compared to hades (In Hebrew) or death thanatos and hell or hadēs (In Greek).

For example...


OT
(Hebrew) shows O death (maveth) and O grave (shĕ'owl ) See Hosea 13:14

NT (Greek) shows O death (thanatos) and hell (hades) See Rev 20:13 & 1Cr 15:55


Rev 20:13 death #2288 (thanatos) and hell #86 (hadēs) delivered up the dead in them

Both words used interchangeable here...

1Cr 15:55 O death 2288 (thanatos) where 4226 [is] thy 4675 sting 2759? O grave 86, (hadēs) where 4226 is thy 4675 victory 3534?

In the OT O death #4194 is (maveth) and O grave #7585 is shĕ'owl written as hell in the OT but in the Lexicon (there) it also acknowledges the same as hadēs (or comparibly so)

We can at least we catch the same and a similiarity in the way they both show them.


 
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someguy14

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Sadly, it seems that the Bible is, once again, unclear on what it teaches. That, or Christians are unclear on what the Bible is saying. Is it really such a hard thing to ask of a deity that they leave behind clear instructions?


1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
 
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