Does the Bible teach that obedience is expected after salvation?

gideons300 · Feb 9, 2015

From the posts made, it seems there is much confusion on obedience. But Suzanne got it. If we will obey in believing that our God can and will cause us to obey in all other areas. That is the glory of the new covenant!

He does not accomplish this by making us "robots" as some have suggested I am saying. LOL. He does so by making Galatians 2:20 a reality in our lives. Here is what it says:

"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live. Yet not I, but Christ now liveth in me.And the life that I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

There it is.... the secret of obedience! Christ in us obeying for us.... through us! What is our responsibility here? Do we need to work to obey, to stay saved? NO. We need to abide in Him and remain dead, and fully resurrected by faith.

Can we fall here? Yes, but only because at the beginning, our faith is weak and shaky. If we do fall and sin, we repent and turn from it, just like before, BUT...... the next step is critical. We again believe we are new creatures and that sin no longer has dominion over us. We again believe that our God will cause us to walk as obedient children and that if we are tempted, He will provide a way to escape it without falling. We again hoist our shield of faith that it is no longer us that live but Christ who now lives in us, for that shield is guaranteed to quench every flaming arrow Satan will throw at us.

This is no small thing, and Satan knows it. He will do anything to try to pry that testimony of truth out of our mouths. Trust me, I know.

And what is the bottom line of this glorious obedience of faith? It is the glory of seeing the very nature of Christ begin to be imprinted.... no,no..... revealedin us. To our delight and amazement, we see ourselves able to obey in all things Is obedience required? Glory, no! It is assured!

Blessings,

Gideon

Norah63 · Feb 9, 2015

Any marriage takes two.
A head or husband, a wife that is willing to submit in love.
Not complicated at all.

jiminpa · Feb 9, 2015

Yes, God does the work, but requires us to submit to that work. We can't run around doing as our flesh pleases and think that grace is just a get out of Hell free card. Grace, as the Bible speaks of it, empowers us to overcome. If we are sloshing around in sin, we are not walking in Biblical grace. As Gids keeps preaching we attain true grace by believing God. If it is God's grace it changes us. If it is this popular not really grace, it doesn't change us but we feel better, but only because we are searing our own consciences, and hardening our own hearts against the very God we claim to love.

Doctor Octavius · Feb 9, 2015

gideons300 said:
Can we fall here? Yes, but only because at the beginning, our faith is weak and shaky. If we do fall and sin, we repent and turn from it, just like before, BUT...... the next step is critical. We again believe we are new creatures and that sin no longer has dominion over us. We again believe that our God will cause us to walk as obedient children and that if we are tempted, He will provide a way to escape it without falling. We again hoist our shield of faith that it is no longer us that live but Christ who now lives in us, for that shield is guaranteed to quench every flaming arrow Satan will throw at us.

So what happens if you "again believe sin no longer has dominion over us" etc etc, and then fall again? Sin no longer having dominion over us does not mean "we stop sinning," it means we struggle with our sin, though we fall 7 times, God forgives us 7 times 70 times. When Paul said that he was "wretched," as he does in Romans 7, he obviously could not lay claim to having freedom from sin in the way you might be thinking here.

This quotation from a' Brakel's (a Dutch Puritan) "A Christian's Reasonable Service" may be useful here:

"The converted detect much of the old Adam within themselves. They observe how they frequently fallindeed, even continue in sin, being captured and captivated by sin. By this their faith easily falters, fearing that sin still has dominion over them. In order that they may know that sin has no dominion over them, but that it merely battles them as an enemy, we will further demonstrate when sin does not have dominion.

(1) Sin has no dominion when there is a union with Christ by faith, be it that this union manifests itself more clearly, strongly, and sensibly; or that it primarily manifests itself in activity to be reconciled with God in Christ consisting in desires, prayers, embracing, believing reception, and wrestlings, so that the soul cannot be at peace apart from the sensible enjoyment of this reconciliation and union, even if it cannot attain to the sensible assurance of this union. Since truth, love, and spiritual exercise manifest themselves, however, the essence of this union exists. Christ is the life of the soul (Col 3:4). Being thus united to life itself, death has no dominion, but rather life, as feeble as it may be.

(2) Sin has no dominion when this union results in lively, spiritual exercises. All exercises which do not proceed from this union are deemed of no value by a converted person. All his efforts are focused on living by virtue of this union, be it in the enjoyment of this union, or in seeking after and focusing upon this union. Such a person desires to do everything out of God, through God, for God, before God, and unto God. They are only refreshed when all their deeds are wrought in God (John 3:21). This union cannot be passive, for faith worketh by love (Gal 5:6), purifies the heart (Acts 15:9), overcometh the world (1 John 5:4), resists the devil (1 Pet 5:9), and is fruitful unto good works (James 2:17). The issue here is not the measure of faith, but its genuineness. (3) Sin has no dominion when this union brings forth internal opposition and hatred towards all that is sin (by virtue of its very nature) whether it be great or small. This attitude does not only pertain to that which is external, but especially concerns itself with what they perceive in their own heart. As a result of this they abhor themselves more than anyone else. For that which I do I allow not. ... If then I do that which I would not ... it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me (Rom 7:15-17); I hate vain thoughts ... I hate every false way (Ps 119:113,128). This will bring forth sorrow and humiliation concerning the inner condition of the heart, the sins of omission, and sinful deeds. The soul is immediately wounded and experiences sorrow. This is an evidence of the presence of a living principle which is diametrically opposed to sin.

(4) Sin has no dominion when, due to said union, internal resistance and hatred towards sin translates into actual opposition and strife against sin. Time and again there is a new resolve to do battle against sin; there is prayer for strength, and, desiring to be strengthened, there is a receiving of Jesus by faith unto sanctification. The godly fear that sin may take them by surprise and thus they seek to be watchful. They seek to avoid opportunity to sin, resisting it when it does occur. At times there is victory and at other times they will be overcome by one particular sin. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would (Gal 5:17). It cannot therefore be denied that where there is a battle against sin, sin has no dominion. (5) Sin has no dominion when this union results in a delight, a love for, and a desire to do whatever pleases the Lord. This opposition towards sin is all-inclusive, no sin being excluded. Similarly, the acquiescence with the will of God is also all-inclusive. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man (Rom 7:22); O how love I Thy law! (Ps 119:97). Yes, not only is there a love for and acquiescence with the will of God, but also a love for all those whom one deems to be loved of God and who love God. They are repulsed by and displeased with those that belong to the world, since at heart they are separated from the world. In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the Lord (Ps 15:4); We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren (1 John 3:14).

Consider all these evidences together and compare them with those which are evidences of the dominion of sin. If someone comes to the conclusion that the evidences of being under the dominion of sin are not present, but perceives those evidences to the contrary, be it not in the measure which he would desire, he can be assured that sin has no dominion over him. Such a person should rejoice and not permit his faith to falter due to the power of internal corruption which still remains. Rather, he will persevere in that inner lifehowever feeble it may bewith sincerity and cheerfulness in order that he might increase in sanctification."

htt ps://biblicalspirituality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/reasonableservicevol1-indexed.pdf

razzelflabben · Feb 9, 2015

gideons300 said:
There is much discussion, much of it heated, as to whether obedience is needed after we are saved. On the one side we have the thought that once saved, nothing can cause us to lose it. On the other side the thought that we must be holy and fully obedient to stay saved or we can lose it. Is that a fair assessment of both sides?

what about a side that says that we are to strive to be obedient through the power of the indwelling HS. IOW's it isn't a matter of, I sinned I lose my salvation but rather, I am living in the guarantee (HS) of my salvation on a daily basis.

To both, I would offer up this verse.

"He became the author of eternal salvation to all those who obey Him."

Let's note that we are not told that it is to all those who try to obey Him but of course who cannot because they are only human.

Let's also note that it is not talking about those who are not all fanatical about obedience because they have a deeper revelation of grace.

If this one verse is to be taken at face value, then both sides are wrong. I will not list all the verses that tie obedience and salvation together, but they are there. We have been bought. We are not our own. When we repented and believed at our salvation, did we understand what it meant? That we were surrendering control of our hearts to Him?

We think obedience was the covenant of the Law. And it was.

Obey my voice and I will be your God and you will be my people."

What happened? The things men wanted to do, they didn't do' and the things they did not want to do, that they did.

So a new covenant was brought about. Grace. Now we have interpreted tthat to mean we try to obey, or perhaps we don't, but either way, grace assures us of salvation with obedience having NO bearing on our salvation. In other words under the new covenant, the things we want to do, we do not, and the things we do not want to do we do, but grace saves us anyway. But the above scripture clearly refutes this.

And if obedience is an actual built in part of salvation, we see only one alternative.... working for it.... law... What we have missed is that there is another and it is clearly stated in God's own Word. Under this amazing new covenant, obedience is no more a requirement, it is promised! God specifically states in Ezekiel 36 that He will cause us to walk as obedient children. Glory to God.

We can try to run from the need for full obedience as if it is asking too much, but God says it is totally reasonable for us to walk as living sacrifices. Or, we can steel ourselves that we MUST be holy, and by gosh we will do it. No, we won't. Time should have taught us that.

God is opening our eyes to His new and living way, Christ in us obeying for us, through us. If we are dead and it is now Christ who lives in us, who is now in control? Will He not obey?

Do we see? There IS perfect security and it is found as we clothe ourselves with our new nature. That is why grace teaches us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we are to live soberly, righteously and justly. Grace makes sure we WILL obey!

Blessings,

Gideon

Ephesians 1:14 (NSV) who is the guarantee of our inheritance until God redeems his own possession for his praise and glory.

II Timothy (NIV) having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

when we put these two verses together, it seems to me that obedience is the evidence of the promised indwelling of the HS. I know on this thread this is going to be a controversial statement, but as I understand scripture without all the teachers interpreting it for me, the primary evidence of the HS is obedience, which is why obedience is not only such an important topic to the believer, but is our assurance of salvation. I mean, if you want assurance of salvation, why wouldn't you look for the promised power over sin and death rather than the power that can be imitated by satan and his followers? Just a thought and my opinion based on my studies.

gideons300 · Feb 9, 2015

Doctor Octavius said:
So what happens if you "again believe sin no longer has dominion over us" etc etc, and then fall again? Sin no longer having dominion over us does not mean "we stop sinning," it means we struggle with our sin, though we fall 7 times, God forgives us 7 times 70 times. When Paul said that he was "wretched," as he does in Romans 7, he obviously could not lay claim to having freedom from sin in the way you might be thinking here.

This quotation from a' Brakel's (a Dutch Puritan) "A Christian's Reasonable Service" may be useful here:

"The converted detect much of the old Adam within themselves. They observe how they frequently fallindeed, even continue in sin, being captured and captivated by sin. By this their faith easily falters, fearing that sin still has dominion over them. In order that they may know that sin has no dominion over them, but that it merely battles them as an enemy, we will further demonstrate when sin does not have dominion.

(1) Sin has no dominion when there is a union with Christ by faith, be it that this union manifests itself more clearly, strongly, and sensibly; or that it primarily manifests itself in activity to be reconciled with God in Christ consisting in desires, prayers, embracing, believing reception, and wrestlings, so that the soul cannot be at peace apart from the sensible enjoyment of this reconciliation and union, even if it cannot attain to the sensible assurance of this union. Since truth, love, and spiritual exercise manifest themselves, however, the essence of this union exists. Christ is the life of the soul (Col 3:4). Being thus united to life itself, death has no dominion, but rather life, as feeble as it may be.

(2) Sin has no dominion when this union results in lively, spiritual exercises. All exercises which do not proceed from this union are deemed of no value by a converted person. All his efforts are focused on living by virtue of this union, be it in the enjoyment of this union, or in seeking after and focusing upon this union. Such a person desires to do everything out of God, through God, for God, before God, and unto God. They are only refreshed when all their deeds are wrought in God (John 3:21). This union cannot be passive, for faith worketh by love (Gal 5:6), purifies the heart (Acts 15:9), overcometh the world (1 John 5:4), resists the devil (1 Pet 5:9), and is fruitful unto good works (James 2:17). The issue here is not the measure of faith, but its genuineness. (3) Sin has no dominion when this union brings forth internal opposition and hatred towards all that is sin (by virtue of its very nature) whether it be great or small. This attitude does not only pertain to that which is external, but especially concerns itself with what they perceive in their own heart. As a result of this they abhor themselves more than anyone else. For that which I do I allow not. ... If then I do that which I would not ... it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me (Rom 7:15-17); I hate vain thoughts ... I hate every false way (Ps 119:113,128). This will bring forth sorrow and humiliation concerning the inner condition of the heart, the sins of omission, and sinful deeds. The soul is immediately wounded and experiences sorrow. This is an evidence of the presence of a living principle which is diametrically opposed to sin.

(4) Sin has no dominion when, due to said union, internal resistance and hatred towards sin translates into actual opposition and strife against sin. Time and again there is a new resolve to do battle against sin; there is prayer for strength, and, desiring to be strengthened, there is a receiving of Jesus by faith unto sanctification. The godly fear that sin may take them by surprise and thus they seek to be watchful. They seek to avoid opportunity to sin, resisting it when it does occur. At times there is victory and at other times they will be overcome by one particular sin. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would (Gal 5:17). It cannot therefore be denied that where there is a battle against sin, sin has no dominion. (5) Sin has no dominion when this union results in a delight, a love for, and a desire to do whatever pleases the Lord. This opposition towards sin is all-inclusive, no sin being excluded. Similarly, the acquiescence with the will of God is also all-inclusive. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man (Rom 7:22); O how love I Thy law! (Ps 119:97). Yes, not only is there a love for and acquiescence with the will of God, but also a love for all those whom one deems to be loved of God and who love God. They are repulsed by and displeased with those that belong to the world, since at heart they are separated from the world. In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the Lord (Ps 15:4); We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren (1 John 3:14).

Consider all these evidences together and compare them with those which are evidences of the dominion of sin. If someone comes to the conclusion that the evidences of being under the dominion of sin are not present, but perceives those evidences to the contrary, be it not in the measure which he would desire, he can be assured that sin has no dominion over him. Such a person should rejoice and not permit his faith to falter due to the power of internal corruption which still remains. Rather, he will persevere in that inner lifehowever feeble it may bewith sincerity and cheerfulness in order that he might increase in sanctification."

htt ps://biblicalspirituality.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/reasonableservicevol1-indexed.pdf

I liken our reckoning ourselves as dead to sin like learning to walk. When we first begin, our faith is often shaky at best. If we fall, not when, but IF.... then as I shared we turn hard from it and face the opposite direction. We also immediately pick up our shield of faith that agrees with God that we ARE light, not growing towards it. Anything less here, and satan will find and exploit the crack in our armor. So, as you stated, if we fall..... again.... we do the exact same thing. Are we believing a lie? Not at all! God has been crystal clear.... we are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit and owe our flesh NOTHING.

What I fear you are not seeing is that it is this very process that is our "good fight of faith" and as we abide here, unwavering, unmoved, with our testimony matching His about us, we find that our faith GROWS! As our faith grows, our shield of faith gets bigger, and the result is that sins that once beset us lose their power over us.

What is happening? We are becoming "established in the faith", and the character of God becomes clearer and clearer in us.

We must KNOW that when Christ died, so did the old nature, the self loving, self ruling one that we have been trying to "improve". We must KNOW that when Christ rose from the dead to newness of life, so did we! It is only these two facts nailed down, no matter what we see in us, that will empower us to do the one step He asks of us.

And what is that? He asks us to.... in total trust and yieldedness.... appropriate that truth as OUR truth. That is what reckoning ourselves as dead to sin is.... an appropriation of the new life, a life that overcomes. This is the faith that was once delivered unto the saints that we are told to earnestly contend for,

To our amazement, we are taken off the highway TO holiness, where we are doomed to try and fail.... and planted on the highway OF holiness, where we are standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has set us free. I cannot overstate it. This works, and whereas before in my life, satan would tempt and I would fall, 38 years worth of that misery, now I see God inside me causing me to stand strong and take that way of escape when temptation comes. I am not talking me being perfect, I am talking about me being perfectly kept.

Not only is sin defeated in this place, but fruits of the Spirit, things I felt guilty for for their great lack in my walk, all of a sudden begin to sprout and bear fruit. I have far, far to go, but to see the process actually work in me, knowing it is not me at all, but Him in me doing it.... it simply amazes me.

There is no room for pride here, for what do we ever do that is holy and pure and godly that is not Jesus actually doing it through us? He gets ALL the glory here.

I pray this clears things up a bit.

Blessings,

Gideon

gideons300 · Feb 9, 2015

razzelflabben said:
what about a side that says that we are to strive to be obedient through the power of the indwelling HS. IOW's it isn't a matter of, I sinned I lose my salvation but rather, I am living in the guarantee (HS) of my salvation on a daily basis.
Ephesians 1:14 (NSV) who is the guarantee of our inheritance until God redeems his own possession for his praise and glory.

II Timothy (NIV) having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

when we put these two verses together, it seems to me that obedience is the evidence of the promised indwelling of the HS. I know on this thread this is going to be a controversial statement, but as I understand scripture without all the teachers interpreting it for me, the primary evidence of the HS is obedience, which is why obedience is not only such an important topic to the believer, but is our assurance of salvation. I mean, if you want assurance of salvation, why wouldn't you look for the promised power over sin and death rather than the power that can be imitated by satan and his followers? Just a thought and my opinion based on my studies.

Razzle, you are right but there is a missing fact here. I will relate it to my walk. As I have shared here many times, I was a Christian AND a porn addict and I could not stop. Some may not understand the power of addicting sin, but I shed many tears over my failed attempts to walk pleasing to my Lord. I was the poster child for Romans 7. The things I wanted to do, I never did, and the things I did not want to do I ened up doing. Misery! Thirty eight years worth.

I asked others how to overcome, and never once got a clear answer that worked. It was the typical "Read your Bible, pray, serve, go to church, it takes time, you will never be perfect, and on and on..."

Is that not truly all we have to offer the drug addict? The alcoholic? But they need answers more powerful than that! And we have not given it to them so that they can cease from their efforts and actually see the chains of sin and self rule fall from our wrists. Why? because we have not known how to do so in our own lives.

You are correct, obedience IS a sign of our salvation. James and Paul were not in disagreement here. We are saved by grace but if we are and are waling in the Lord as He intends, with Him living through us and us dead (Gal 2:20) we WILL be obedient. BUT there is a problem. We cannot perfectly obey! Woe is us! We need a deliverer. And we have one!

I pray we understand, Romans 7 was meant to be a valley we passed through as we learn to hate our old life, our sinful self ruling nature and the lack of strength and resolve that plagues it. Romans 8 is our birthright and Christ is our deliverer from failure to the ability to obey with a joy filled heart. How do we get out of our wilderness wandering to our land of Promise? We believe the promises! Faith alone moves God. It works!

And when we do, what comes to us WITH our faith is God causing us to obey, because our very nature is changed. Whereas before, our swinging pendulum would find its resting place in sin, now it is the opposite. Thus, when we look at man's life and he is fully obedient, not by his efforts but by the indwelling Lord abiding in us by faith, we know that he is a believer. Obedience, true heart obedience, is the outer evidence of an inner change.

But if we err here, and think we can stay in this place of being kept by OUR efforts and white knuckled determination to obey, we will find the slippery road back to where we began. We can indeed begin to rebuild that which He destroyed.... our old fleshly nature...but once one tastes of this amazing life of being kept by God through faith in His Son, who in their right mind would go backwards to a life of up and down, when every step we take is meant to be our possession?

I hope this helps understand the link between obedience and abiding. If we stay yielded and believing, we stay abiding. Who is it that enters the rest? He that has ceased from his own efforts and trusts God's efforts in him instead! Praise God!

Blessings Razzle,

Gideon

razzelflabben · Feb 9, 2015

gideons300 said:
Razzle, you are right but there is a missing fact here. I will relate it to my walk. As I have shared here many times, I was a Christian AND a porn addict and I could not stop. Some may not understand the power of addicting sin, but I shed many tears over my failed attemots. I lwas the poster child for Romans 7. The things I wanted to do, I never did, and the things I did not want to do I ened up doing. Misery! Thirty eight years worth.

I asked others how to overcome, and never once got a clear answer that worked. It was the typical "Read your Bible, pray, serve, go to church, it takes time, you will never be perfect, and on and on..."

Is that not our answer for the drug addict? The alcoholic? But they need answers more powerful than that! And we have not given it to them so that they can cease from their efforts and actually see the chains of sin and self rule fall from our wrists.

Obedience IS a sign of our salvation. BUT.... we cannot perfectly obey! Woe is us! ..... until we realize that Romans 7 was meant to be a valley we passed through as we learn to hate our stinking flesh and the lack of strength and resolve that plagues it. Romans 8 is our birthright and Christ is our deliverer from failure to the ability to obey. How do we get to our land of Promise? We believe the promises!

And when we do, what comes to us WITH our faith is God causing us to obey, and thus, one looks at man's life and he is fully obedient, not by his efforts but by the indwelling Lord, we know that he is a believer. Obedience, true heart obedience, is the outer evidence of an inner change.

But if we err here, and think we can stay in this place of being kept by OUR efforts to obey, we will find the slippery road back to where we began. We can rebuild that which He destroyed.... but once one tastes of thus amazing life of being kept by God through faith in His Son, who in their right mind would go backwards to a life of up and down, when every step we take is to be our possession?

I hope this helps understand the link between obedience and abiding. If we stay yielded and believing, we stay abiding. Who is it that enters the rest? He that has ceased from his own efforts and trusts God's efforts in him instead! Praise God!

Blessings Razzle,

Gideon

amen...pretty sure that is what I said. It is the work of the HS within that is our power to overcome sin and live in the obedience and righteousness of Christ. When we live in this power, we are able to resist sins that held us captive for years.

But let's add another element to this equation. You talked about yielding. Prayer is a place of yielding. Now look at Matthew 26 especially vs. 41 41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Prayer is one of the tools we have for avoiding temptations that lead to sin. IOW's we are to do something. Submitting ourselves to God, resisting the devil, James 4:7; Ephesians 4:27; Ephs 6; I Peter 5:6-9....obedience is NOT a passive thing in which we do nothing.

When my own husband was battling porn addiction, he did something to work with the HS within...he resisted the temptations, he found an accountability partner, he submitted himself to God, etc. Without the HS these things have no power, they are just movements. With the HS these things become powerful weapons against sin. I have said it before and I will say it again, Salvation is a kind of symbiotic relationship in which we contribute while God does all the work. I don't know why it is so hard for people to understand this given it is clear in scripture. If I say to God, "lead me not into temptation" then go out of my way to get on the computer and look up web sights, all the time making excuses for not submitting to God and resisting the enemy, then God will not enable me to say no to the temptation of porn. If on the other hand, I work with God, not against Him, I submit myself to God, I resist the enemy, I pray rather than turning on the computer, then God is free to finish the work that He began, a work that presents us spotless before the throne of God.

It is our effort with His power that opens the door to our being obedient. Just like Christ Himself showed us in the garden when He went off to pray and asked His disciples to do the same. He put forth the effort to obey/pray so that HE could fully yield His desires to the will of God and in that duel relationship, found obedience even to the endurance of the cross.

IOW's as the primary evidence of the HS is obedience, obedience is not possible without the indwelling HS. That makes it a work of the HS not a work of the flesh. But that does not mean we have no responsibility, it means that we work with the HS by yielding, by submitting, by praying, etc. all the things scripture tells us to do in order to overcome sin and be living a victorious life.

faroukfarouk · Feb 9, 2015

Romans actually speaks repeatedly of the obedience of faith.

Gregory Thompson · Feb 9, 2015

Does the Bible teach that obedience is expected after salvation?

Deconstructing question then addressing premise of argument that formed question.

1) Does the bible teach?

No, the bible does not teach. People read the bible, and then teach.

2) Obedience is expected

If obedience is expected, this sounds a lot like the punishment reward system that human parents use to teach their kids so that they can control them. But I'd like to think God is a better parent, being the example for us all. In that God is love, he casts out all fear. Control is not something God needs, this is a human construct.

3) after salvation.

The biblical text indicates that we are saved in the assertive present tense while indicating that the Holy Spirit is a deposit of the promise .. but later on is the actual redemption of our souls. So in the spirit of that assertive present tense the apostles used in their teaching .. I'd say that "after salvation" meaning in the new bodies .. we would exist in a totally different manner .. obedience wouldn't be an issue .
.
however, what you meant most likely was, "Is it a reasonable observation for a person to teach from the bible that one should be obedient to the doctrines of men after being born again?" .. well perhaps to an extent .. but after "discipleship" and the new life takes hold beyond the old person's ability to resist it .. I don't think so .. speaking about the law which speaks to the previous heaven and the previous earth .. for an old humanity .. does not speak to what we are becoming in Christ .. the law is subserviant to the order of the old creation .. but the new nature is part of a new creation .. of which there is no such binding . hope that answered the question sufficiently

Andry · Feb 9, 2015

Michael Collum said:
Deconstructing question then addressing premise of argument that formed question.

1) Does the bible teach?

No, the bible does not teach. People read the bible, and then teach.

2) Obedience is expected

If obedience is expected, this sounds a lot like the punishment reward system that human parents use to teach their kids so that they can control them. But I'd like to think God is a better parent, being the example for us all. In that God is love, he casts out all fear. Control is not something God needs, this is a human construct.

3) after salvation.

The biblical text indicates that we are saved in the assertive present tense while indicating that the Holy Spirit is a deposit of the promise .. but later on is the actual redemption of our souls. So in the spirit of that assertive present tense the apostles used in their teaching .. I'd say that "after salvation" meaning in the new bodies .. we would exist in a totally different manner .. obedience wouldn't be an issue .
.
however, what you meant most likely was, "Is it a reasonable observation for a person to teach from the bible that one should be obedient to the doctrines of men after being born again?" .. well perhaps to an extent .. but after "discipleship" and the new life takes hold beyond the old person's ability to resist it .. I don't think so .. speaking about the law which speaks to the previous heaven and the previous earth .. for an old humanity .. does not speak to what we are becoming in Christ .. the law is subserviant to the order of the old creation .. but the new nature is part of a new creation .. of which there is no such binding . hope that answered the question sufficiently

Pedant alert.

FoundInGrace · Feb 9, 2015

Michael Collum said:
Deconstructing question then addressing premise of argument that formed question.

1) Does the bible teach?

No, the bible does not teach. People read the bible, and then teach.

2) Obedience is expected

If obedience is expected, this sounds a lot like the punishment reward system that human parents use to teach their kids so that they can control them. But I'd like to think God is a better parent, being the example for us all. In that God is love, he casts out all fear. Control is not something God needs, this is a human construct.

I thought that too about the phrase 'obedience is expected', if it had said 'obedience is encouraged...' or ' is obedience is a natural outcome of salvation' then it would have been a less dictatorial/controlling sounding statement and less condemning sounding.

There are ways of saying things that do not lay a heavy burden on people where it is not needed in order to communicate a message.

razzelflabben · Feb 9, 2015

Michael Collum said:
Deconstructing question then addressing premise of argument that formed question.

1) Does the bible teach?

No, the bible does not teach. People read the bible, and then teach.

actually, the bible says that the bible teaches as does the HS. II Tim. 3:16; Romans 15:4; John 14:26; I John 2:27; Romans 8:26. One of the things that has amazed me about this discussion on obedience is how few people have absolutely no idea who the Holy Spirit is and what He does in our lives.

2) Obedience is expected

If obedience is expected, this sounds a lot like the punishment reward system that human parents use to teach their kids so that they can control them. But I'd like to think God is a better parent, being the example for us all. In that God is love, he casts out all fear. Control is not something God needs, this is a human construct.

now, I will not defend the word usage here, but I will defend the idea of correction as it is directly talked about in scripture. John 5:17; Hebrews 12:5; Psalms 94:12; Proverbs 3:11; Jeremiahs 31:18. According to scripture, God teaches us through example as well as correction and the wise man does NOT dispise this correction.

3) after salvation.

The biblical text indicates that we are saved in the assertive present tense while indicating that the Holy Spirit is a deposit of the promise .. but later on is the actual redemption of our souls. So in the spirit of that assertive present tense the apostles used in their teaching .. I'd say that "after salvation" meaning in the new bodies .. we would exist in a totally different manner .. obedience wouldn't be an issue .

this is a bit more complicated than a few scriptures showing you to be wrong. In this world we will have troubles/temptations...but take heart, I have overcome the world. John 16:33; Acts 14:22; II Cor. 6:4; I John 2:13; Rev. 3:21. IOW's salvation is an ongoing occurrence in which life begins the moment of salvation and continues to our redemption. This means that living an obediet life, also starts the moment of salvation and continues to grow into our redemption

.
however, what you meant most likely was, "Is it a reasonable observation for a person to teach from the bible that one should be obedient to the doctrines of men after being born again?" ..

I didn't know we were talking about the doctrine of men, I thought we were talking about the commands of God. DId the subject change, or did I miss something.

well perhaps to an extent .. but after "discipleship" and the new life takes hold beyond the old person's ability to resist it .. I don't think so .. speaking about the law which speaks to the previous heaven and the previous earth .. for an old humanity .. does not speak to what we are becoming in Christ .. the law is subserviant to the order of the old creation .. but the new nature is part of a new creation .. of which there is no such binding . hope that answered the question sufficiently

I think you may be confusing the law with the commands of God.

Gregory Thompson · Feb 9, 2015

FoundInGrace said:
I thought that too about the phrase 'obedience is expected', if it had said 'obedience is encouraged...' or ' is obedience is a natural outcome of salvation' then it would have been a less dictatorial/controlling sounding statement and less condemning sounding.

There are ways of saying things that do not lay a heavy burden on people where it is not needed in order to communicate a message.

the word that we translate into "hope" also can mean to expect . but the idea of hope tends to be more relaxed . so the word "expectancy" seems to be one of my more favourite renditions.

gideons300 · Feb 9, 2015

LOL, I often wonder if some even read what I post, as opposed to making up their minds what I am saying and then trying to negate it.

Obedience IS expected. that is not the question. When Jesus asked:

"Why do you call me Lord, lord, and do not do the things that I command you?"

.... He was not asking for our list of reasons why. He was saying that obedience was to be a natural byproduct of our abiding in him. The question is not "Is obedience expected?" , the real key question is "WHY is it is to be expected?"

Is it to be expected because we need to obey to stay saved? Are you listening? NO. If so, we are in deep trouble, amen? No, it is the most natural thing in the world that we should expect obedience to follow our faith. Why? I pray all listen and hear clearly what I am saying so that we will not have to argue this point again.

Obedience should be expected from us because God has promised to CAUSE US to obey.

Listen. These are God's words, not mine. I am not twisting unrelated scriptures to make them say what I would like them to say. Here is God's promise to us of what his new covenant will do for us:

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them."

Ezekiel 36

Are you reading what God is saying? Yes, He will forgive us. Yes, He will cleanse us. BUT, He will also give us new hearts, new natures and cause us to walk in obedience. GLORY TO GOD! Should that not excite us to no end??

And it will..... to those who hate their continued self rule, their pride, their falling to satan's temptations. It is a wonderful thing to be able to get washed clean by God, but lest we forget, the law did that as well, did it not?

The law said "Obey my voice, and I will be your God and you will be my people."

Problem. No one could obey. So like under the new covenant, the blood of a sacrifice had to be shed to cleanse us, but it could only last one year. Then another sacrifice had to be made. So how is the new covenant different? Some think it made obedience unneeded. But that is not what scriptures teach as we can see here....

"He became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey Him."

The call for obedience is unchanged, no matter the covenant. So what is different? Well, for one, we have a better sacrifice, one that does not need to be made again and again. But is that all? No. There is a HUGE benefit that satan has up till now blinded us to, a truth God is even now awakening us to. What is it? The obedience God requires? God will supply it to us, and bring it about IN US! He will CAUSE us to obey Him! Praise God!

This is what God is awakening us to in these last days. This is how the church of Jesus Christ will be made into overcomers in these final hours. This is how we will become without spot or wrinkle. God will dwell IN us, not with us, and once He is allowed His rightful position and with us having put off our old nature by faith, obedience will follow just as surely as disobedience followed our former life. When we believe that He is not a man that He should lie and that His promises to us are ye and amen, we who have NO strength will suddenly find we can mount up with wings as eagles. Our obedience will be sure, a sign that Christ dwells in us. Thank God, while our faith is growing exceedingly to appropriate such a miracle, if we do slip, we have the blood to forgive us and set us on our feet again.... to make our stand of faith again in the sureness of His promise.

Although I do not use the Message Bible for doctrinal study, often I find the way it shares things adds great light to our understanding. Listen to God's words to us in Revelations 3.

18 “Here’s what I want you to do: Buy your gold from me, gold that’s been through the refiner’s fire . Then you’ll be rich. Buy your clothes from me, clothes designed in Heaven. You’ve gone around half-naked long enough. And buy medicine for your eyes from me so you can see, really see.

19 “The people I love, I call to account—prod and correct and guide so that they’ll live at their best. Up on your feet, then! About face! Run after God!

20-21 “Look at me. I stand at the door. I knock. If you hear me call and open the door, I’ll come right in and sit down to supper with you. Conquerors will sit alongside me at the head table, just as I, having conquered, took the place of honor at the side of my Father. That’s my gift to the conquerors!

22 “Are your ears awake? Listen. Listen to the Wind Words, the Spirit blowing through the churches.”

Oh, my dear brothers and sisters in Christ, we are not just conquerors. We are MORE than conquerors! And what is it that we have the privilege and the power to overcome? Our old sinful nature with the affections and lusts thereof! It is time we believed that this is what Christ died to give us. This is our birthright. No more trading it for a mess of pottage.

We are about to be amazed.

Blessings,

Gideon

FoundInGrace · Feb 9, 2015

FoundInGrace · Feb 9, 2015

Michael Collum said:
the word that we translate into "hope" also can mean to expect . but the idea of hope tends to be more relaxed . so the word "expectancy" seems to be one of my more favourite renditions.

that's cool

Always in His Presence · Feb 9, 2015

gideons300 said:
From the posts made, it seems there is much confusion on obedience. But Suzanne got it. If we will obey in believing that our God can and will cause us to obey in all other areas. That is the glory of the new covenant!

Are you saying that it would be impossible to sin? That God would be the causative factor in obedience and it would not be possible to sin ever again?

Is that what you are saying.

Please begin your answer by saying yes or no and then your reasoning behind it.

Please try to keep it plain and perhaps under 5,000 or so words.

Thanks

gideons300 · Feb 9, 2015

Simply Put said:
Are you saying that it would be impossible to sin? That God would be the causative factor in obedience and it would not be possible to sin ever again?

Is that what you are saying.

Please begin your answer by saying yes or no and then your reasoning behind it.

Please try to keep it plain and perhaps under 5,000 or so words.

Thanks

How about "I don't know"? No cop-out. Just the truth.

Now if you ask me "As a man becomes established in the faith that it is no more him, but Christ who now lives in him, can and will God keep such a one from falling?",my answer is a hearty "Yes!"

Maybe it is just me, but the word "Impossible" seems to denote viewing man's side of things, and thus we end up in error, judging eternal things as fleshly men and our thinking as to what we can or cannot do based on our reasoning and our past experience.

Now if you ask me "Do we ever get to the place where we do not need to be aware of satan' s devices and resist him steadfast in the faith?"... my answer would be no. But can we stand fast in that faith till Jesus returns and never willfully disobey our Master? You bet.

The sad part of this discussion is that instead of answers like "Oh, if that were true, I would be the happiest person alive" and seek God on the matter, hungering and thirsting for His righteousness as we are commanded with all of our hearts, far too many are set like a flint right from the outset to disprove God's clear promises with no real desire for it to become a reality in their lives.

God gave us positional holiness, not as a substitute for the real thing, but as the seed that was to sprout into real palpable purity through faith in His promises. He never gave it to us as a substitute for it so we could rest in the wilderness of unbelief. The rest is ours, but only in the land of Promise, when we see our lives changed from religious to righteous. Who would not want such a transformation??

Blessings,

Gideon

Gregory Thompson · Feb 9, 2015

If we are more than conquerors .. then why is the christian walk treated as if we are mere soldiers?

Does the Bible teach that obedience is expected after salvation?

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