Does the Bible Support or Oppose Five-Point Calvinism?

Jacque_Pierre22 · Aug 17, 2015

Right. 2 Tim 4:14 "Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm"
2 Tim 4:9 "Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thesaloniki."

Could have fooled Paul! Just shows that one must persevere to STAY elect.

Jacque_Pierre22 · Aug 17, 2015

Point is this: Stop worrying about whether you are elect! If you are persevering in the gospel, and believe in the trinity, etc. You are! Now enjoy and live like it. If you wonder about being elect, you start doing "works" for works sake not naturally because of being excited about the gospel itself.

SinnerInTheHands · Aug 17, 2015

MonaphychosConstantine said:
If you wonder about being elect, you start doing "works" for works sake not naturally because of being excited about the gospel itself.

I strongly disagree.

nobdysfool · Aug 17, 2015

MonaphychosConstantine said:
Point is this: Stop worrying about whether you are elect! If you are persevering in the gospel, and believe in the trinity, etc. You are! Now enjoy and live like it. If you wonder about being elect, you start doing "works" for works sake not naturally because of being excited about the gospel itself.

I'm not aware of anyone in these discussions who is worried about being one of the Elect.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 17, 2015

Lazy_Proverb said:
Now it appears EeSw has logged off. Now we should expect FreeGrace2 to come in and pick up where EwSw left off in this.

Why in the world should one expect that?

Jacque_Pierre22 · Aug 17, 2015

I'm just saying that from a Lutheran point of view; the fear of whether one is elect is the main reason why calvinists are more sanctification (works based); it is relevant in general. Now if you can explain to me how Demas was not elect even though he appears Colossians 4 and Philemon and throughout obviously supported Paul; thought that he himself was elect the whole time; how exactly was he never saved? I don't interpret 1 John 2:19 that way. There is no word "elect" there. Hebrews 6 also looks like one could fall away (not sure if it was mentioned). If there is no risk of falling away, then why preach on it in Hebrews 6 then? I don't get it.

Jacque_Pierre22 · Aug 17, 2015

Also I agree with the idea of election but not falling away. (Can anyone of you guys reply to my Jonah thread, I really want a perspective on this from well informed Calvinists); As I'm sure you know, Jonah preached to the capital of Assyria and they repented; yet 10-20 years later Assyria was destroyed. Do you believe that none of those people fell away? Did they also die during that judgement?

Lazy_Proverb · Aug 17, 2015

MonaphychosConstantine said:
No the totality of the Bible does not support all five points. You can read Jordan Cooper's essays on why its wrong on 3 points: limited atonment, irrisistible grace, and persevearance of the saints. You/one would have to assume that the people who fell away in the new testament were never Elect that were lectured by Paul, etc. Why warn people with law if they were elect? I would encourage them with gospel. Therefore, the passages I disagree with calvinists are because they are not seeing the law/gospel distinction in Lutheranism and the idea of telling people what they need to hear at a particular moment in time. An elect can fall away.

I think a Lutheran does not quite afford a proper lecture to Calvinists when he first thinks to address them using lower case as a means of imputing insult.

And tossing Jordan into this is no more credible a perspective for absolute renouncement of any one of the five points than is anyone elses attempts, including your own, thus far.
What you fail to realize is that yes, a Calvinist, The Elect, whom you believe are solely/Souly Calvinists, can fall away. What you don't understand is that they are not lost in the fall.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 17, 2015

MonaphychosConstantine said:
I'm just saying that from a Lutheran point of view; the fear of whether one is elect is the main reason why calvinists are more sanctification (works based); it is relevant in general. Now if you can explain to me how Demas was not elect even though he appears Colossians 4 and Philemon and throughout obviously supported Paul; thought that he himself was elect the whole time; how exactly was he never saved? I don't interpret 1 John 2:19 that way. There is no word "elect" there. Hebrews 6 also looks like one could fall away (not sure if it was mentioned). If there is no risk of falling away, then why preach on it in Hebrews 6 then? I don't get it.

The doctrine of election seems to be misunderstood by most. We know from Rom 9:11 that God's choice, or election, always has a purpose. "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls"

Also, Scripture describes at least 6 different "categories" of the elect:
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
5. 1 Peter 2:9
The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 6:70 (including Judas)
The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15

Notice that none of these categories of election were chosen for salvation.

Eph 1:4 tells us who the elect are: believers, from Eph 1:19 - and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

So, let's plug in "us who believe" into Eph 1:4 - just as He chose us who believe in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

It seems many think Eph 1:4 God choosing who will believe, it's quite the opposite. It's believers who He has chosen.

The phrase "falling away" doesn't refer to loss of salvation, but rather, leaving the practice and/or belief of the Christian life. The reason one cannot fall away as in losing salvation is because Jesus told us that those who believe are held by the Father, not the other way around.

John 10:28-29 - My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

rnmomof7 · Aug 17, 2015

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. ( Gen..6: 8)

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

https://answersingenesis.org/gospel/salvation/how-were-people-saved-before-jesus-came-in-the-flesh/

faroukfarouk · Aug 17, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. ( Gen..6: 8)

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

https://answersingenesis.org/gospel/salvation/how-were-people-saved-before-jesus-came-in-the-flesh/

rnmomof7:

It must be all of grace, right?

"All of grace, yes, grace surpassing
Such a portion to bestow.
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.
Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the tree.
Love that shares the bright tomorrow
With the loved ones, you and me.'

rnmomof7 · Aug 17, 2015

EmSw said:
If Jesus took our sins on the cross, why did He state the following after His death?

Luke 24
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Why repent for the remission of sins, if He took them on the cross?

I wonder who is teaching you ???

Lazy_Proverb · Aug 17, 2015

I think the WCF would be a great addition to this thread. This way those who are unaware of its language have a reference point to which they may turn to understand the discussion as it proceeds and on topic of the five points.

The Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter XVII Of The Perseverance Of The Saints

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5]from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

rnmomof7 · Aug 17, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
The doctrine of election seems to be misunderstood by most. We know from Rom 9:11 that God's choice, or election, always has a purpose. "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls"

Also, Scripture describes at least 6 different "categories" of the elect:
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
5. 1 Peter 2:9
The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 6:70 (including Judas)
The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15

Notice that none of these categories of election were chosen for salvation.

Eph 1:4 tells us who the elect are: believers, from Eph 1:19 - and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

So, let's plug in "us who believe" into Eph 1:4 - just as He chose us who believe in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

It seems many think Eph 1:4 God choosing who will believe, it's quite the opposite. It's believers who He has chosen.

The phrase "falling away" doesn't refer to loss of salvation, but rather, leaving the practice and/or belief of the Christian life. The reason one cannot fall away as in losing salvation is because Jesus told us that those who believe are held by the Father, not the other way around.

John 10:28-29 - My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

Did the nation of Israel choose their God

Lazy_Proverb · Aug 17, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
I wonder who is teaching you ???

I would suggest the answer is, no one. Nor is education the priority. Rather, it is something else and that is what demonstrates of itself that agenda that seeks to derail this thread, inflame the subject, insult the faith, and deride the scriptures.

EmSw · Aug 17, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
I wonder who is teaching you ???

It is certainly not the WCF.

EmSw · Aug 17, 2015

Lazy_Proverb said:
I would suggest the answer is, no one. Nor is education the priority. Rather, it is something else and that is what demonstrates of itself that agenda that seeks to derail this thread, inflame the subject, insult the faith, and deride the scriptures.

There is no condemnation from God, but plenty of it from the Reformed.

EmSw · Aug 17, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
Did the nation of Israel choose their God

Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...

Lazy_Proverb · Aug 17, 2015

Wrong answer.

Lazy_Proverb · Aug 17, 2015

EmSw said:
There is no condemnation from God, but plenty of it from the Reformed.

Wrong and wrong.
You would benefit greatly if someone gave you a Bible or a link to a Bible site.

Does the Bible Support or Oppose Five-Point Calvinism?

Do the 66 canonical books of Scripture support or oppose Five-Point Calvinism?

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