Does the Bible Support or Oppose Five-Point Calvinism?

rnmomof7 · Aug 16, 2015

Percivale said:
Calvinism is not based on Scripture, it is based on inferences from a false presupposition--that God's sovereignty is his most prized attribute. Calvinism directly contradicts clear statements of scripture:

And Arminianism based on man's most prized attribute his "free will"

rnmomof7 · Aug 16, 2015

EmSw said:
This proves nothing of predestination, nor elect, nor sheep, nor following Him; you used cucumbers instead of cherries.

You also say nothing of the man who seeks Him that he may live. Why is it a man will live if he seeks Him first? Is this Calvinist doctrine, that a man must seek Him so he may live?

This time you used pickled cucumbers. Nothing is said of sheep in the verses I provided. Nothing is too difficult in the verses I provided, which do not say what you are straining to prove.

Yes men are free to interpret the bible as they like..however it has only one meaning...the one God intended .

The question we need to ask is .. Who will seek the God of the Scriptures ?

We look around and see what Arminians would see as a "misuse" of that prevenient grace... Following Buddha, Hindi gods, Joseph Smith's gods , and many other gods of their own making.

Men seek the god they want, one they can design to meet their needs and desires..

To meet the God of the bible means to die to self.. the natural man will never seek to abandon self .. and to fall before the sovereignty of God without more than a general grace... but a grace that makes man willing, desiring to die to self so he can be born again

Lazy_Proverb · Aug 16, 2015

I don't believe we can possibly hope to go further in a discourse with someone who denies God's sovereignty as part of the (false) argument someone makes against Calvinism.
Once sovereignty is decreed false where do we go from there?

rnmomof7 said:
And Arminianism based on man's most prized attribute his "free will"

Job8 · Aug 16, 2015

Lazy_Proverb said:
All of John 10 speaks to support the tenets of Calvinism.
Especially verse 26 and saving faith as referred to by Jesus himself."... But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep."

Since Jesus is God, and He remained God while He was on this earth, He also remained OMNISCIENT. Addressing those who were not His sheep in His omniscience, He saw their unbelief, their hardness of heart, and therefore their unsaved condition in advance. Hence He was declaring them to be what they were -- not His sheep. This proves nothing to support Calvinism. It does prove that Jesus was, and is, omniscient.

The purpose of John 10 should not be distorted to prove that Christ died ONLY for His sheep. All Scripture tells us that Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD. But John 10 is focused on the Good Shepherd and His relationship to His sheep (the saints). It is absolutely true that since eternity past, the Father has given the Church (the saints) to His Son as His Bride and ultimately His wife. But that does not nullify the fact that if all men would believe, all would be saved, and all would become a part of His Body (the Church) as well as His Bride and Wife. God desires the salvation of all humanity, but only those who obey the Gospel will be saved.

Lazy_Proverb · Aug 16, 2015

Job8 said:
Since Jesus is God, and He remained God while He was on this earth, He also remained OMNISCIENT. Addressing those who were not His sheep in His omniscience, He saw their unbelief, their hardness of heart, and therefore their unsaved condition in advance. Hence He was declaring them to be what they were -- not His sheep. This proves nothing to support Calvinism. It does prove that Jesus was, and is, omniscient.

It proves the tenets of Calvinism. It also demonstrates you are not familiar with T.U.L.I.P

The purpose of John 10 should not be distorted to prove that Christ died ONLY for His sheep. All Scripture tells us that Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.

Click to expand...

But John 10 is focused on the Good Shepherd and His relationship to His sheep (the saints). It is absolutely true that since eternity past, the Father has given the Church (the saints) to His Son as His Bride and ultimately His wife. But that does not nullify the fact that if all men would believe, all would be saved, and all would become a part of His Body (the Church) as well as His Bride and Wife. God desires the salvation of all humanity, but only those who obey the Gospel will be saved.

The entire good news of Jesus Christ proves why Jesus died.
"Obeying the gospel", as you put it, does not save.
The scriptures will tell you that as well. Works do not save.

SinnerInTheHands · Aug 16, 2015

Job8 said:
All Scripture tells us that Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.

1] Christ's death is set forth within Scripture as what accomplished salvation, rather than what made salvation possible.

"God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by His blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His life." [Romans 5:8-10]

"All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." [2 Corinthians 5:18-19]

"By abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility." [Ephesians 2:15-16]

"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him." [Colossians 1:21-22]

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us." [Galatians 3:13]

"Who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works." [Titus 2:14]

"He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of His own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption." [Hebrews 9:12]

"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." [Luke 19:10]

"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." [1 Timothy 1:15]

2] Jesus Christ was sent into the world to save only those the Father had given Him.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of Him who sent me. And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise Him up on the last day." [John 6:37-40]

"I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father." [John 10:14-18]

"So the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." [John 10:24-29]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him." [Ephesians 1:3-4]

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace." [Ephesians 1:7]

"In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit." [Ephesians 1:13]

3] Christ's work as high priest/intercessor was intended for the specific people [the Elect] the Father had given Him, rather than the entire world.

"When Jesus had spoken these words, He lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given Him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.'" [John 17:1-11]

"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word." [John 17:20]

"Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." [John 17:24-26]

"Therefore He had to be made like His brothers in every respect, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." [Hebrews 2:17]

"Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession." [Hebrews 3:1]

"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." [Hebrews 9:28]

4] Christ's gift of salvation was intended for the specific people [the Elect] the Father had given Him, rather than the entire world.

"She will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." [Matthew 1:21]

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." [John 10:11]

"Just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." [John 10:15]

"But you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." [John 10:26]

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." [Acts 20:28]

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." [Ephesians 5:25-27]

"He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised - who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." [Romans 8:32-34]

"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." [John 15:13]

"Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." [Matthew 20:28]

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." [Matthew 26:28]

"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." [Hebrews 9:28]

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." [Acts 20:28]

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that He might present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." [Ephesians 5:25-27]

"He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised - who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." [Romans 8:32-34]

"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." [John 15:13]

"Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." [Matthew 20:28]

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." [Matthew 26:28]

"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." [Hebrews 9:28]

Job8 said:
It is absolutely true that since eternity past, the Father has given the Church (the saints) to His Son as His Bride and ultimately His wife. But that does not nullify the fact that if all men would believe, all would be saved, and all would become a part of His Body (the Church) as well as His Bride and Wife. God desires the salvation of all humanity, but only those who obey the Gospel will be saved.

If all men would believe. But it just so happens that not all men believe.

We can easily tell from Scripture that man cannot choose to accept Christ or the gift of salvation, and that faith is given by God. However, not everyone is given faith or salvation. So, as Owen posits (and as I've quoted many, many times),

"For whom did Christ die? The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either: 1) All the sins of all men; 2) All the sins of some men; or 3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: 1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved; 2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth; 3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

We're not saying that people who believe will wake up one morning and find themselves not on the roster, but simply admitting that God is utterly and completely sovereign, and thus, His gift of salvation was sufficient for all but efficient only for the elect (those who believe). That's it.

Lazy_Proverb · Aug 16, 2015

I think it would be great SITH if you shared where you copied that information from. That way people can read more at the source site.

SinnerInTheHands · Aug 16, 2015

Lazy_Proverb said:
I think it would be great SITH if you shared where you copied that information from. That way people can read more at the source site.

Where I copied what information?

Lazy_Proverb · Aug 16, 2015

Everything in post #278

SinnerInTheHands · Aug 16, 2015

Lazy_Proverb said:
Everything in post #278

I didn't copy and paste anything. I wrote the first half as one of the original opening proofs for this thread [see post #4], and the only thing not mine is the quote from John Owen, as found in his 1647 pillar of English Puritanism, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ.

Lazy_Proverb · Aug 16, 2015

I see. Thank you.

SinnerInTheHands · Aug 16, 2015

Lazy_Proverb said:
I see. Thank you.

That being said, if you want some good Calvinist resources for non-Calvinists the first place to point them would be CRTA:

http://www.reformed.org/index.html

EmSw · Aug 16, 2015

Lazy_Proverb said:
I think the entire Bible and 15 pages of this thread is sufficient.

So you have no passages.

EmSw · Aug 16, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
And Arminianism based on man's most prized attribute his "free will"

Amazing that man has the free-will choice to ostracize man's free will.

SinnerInTheHands · Aug 16, 2015

EmSw said:
Would you mind providing any passages which support this idea?

No problem.

"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." [Romans 3:10-12]

EmSw · Aug 16, 2015

SinnerInTheHands said:
We can easily tell from Scripture that man cannot choose to accept Christ or the gift of salvation, and that faith is given by God. However, not everyone is given faith or salvation. So, as Owen posits (and as I've quoted many, many times),

"For whom did Christ die? The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either: 1) All the sins of all men; 2) All the sins of some men; or 3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: 1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved; 2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth; 3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

Please tell us the punishment for man's sins.

Then tell us how Jesus underwent this punishment.

rnmomof7 · Aug 16, 2015

EmSw said:
Please tell us the punishment for man's sins.

Ask the people screaming to Noah for help or the people of of Sodom as they were destroyed

Then tell us how Jesus underwent this punishment.

The cup of Gods wrath was poured out on Him ....

Rev 14:10

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

EmSw · Aug 16, 2015

SinnerInTheHands said:
No problem.

"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." [Romans 3:10-12]

2 Chronicles 11:16
And after the Levites left, those from all the tribes of Israel, such as set their heart to seek the Lord God of Israel...

2 Chronicles 15:13
and whoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel was to be put to death...

2 Chronicles 20:3,4
And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the Lord...
So Judah gathered together to ask help from the Lord; and from all the cities of Judah they came to seek the Lord.

Isaiah 51:1
Listen to Me, you who follow after righteousness, You who seek the Lord:

Isaiah 55:6
Seek the Lord while He may be found,

Many have sought the Lord; man is even commanded to seek the Lord.

Genesis 7:1
Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

Exodus 23:7
Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous.

Deuteronomy 25:1
If there is a dispute between men, and they come to court, that the judges may judge them, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked,

Psalm 1:5
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Psalm 1:6
For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psalm 5:12
For You, O Lord, will bless the righteous; With favor You will surround him as with a shield.

Psalm 14:5
There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous.

Psalm 32:11
Be glad in the Lord and rejoice, you righteous; And shout for joy, all you upright in heart!

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Plenty of Biblical references to those who were righteous.

Plus, if ALL turned aside from God, how were any saved in the Old Testament?

EmSw · Aug 16, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
Ask the people screaming to Noah for help or the people of of Sodom as they were destroyed

The cup of Gods wrath was poured out on Him ....

Rev 14:10

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Then after 3 days, they are released from God's wrath and screaming for help. So you believe in temporal punishment.

SinnerInTheHands · Aug 16, 2015

EmSw said:
Plus, if ALL turned aside from God, how were any saved in the Old Testament?

Guess you missed out on the "descended into hell" part of the Nicene Creed.

Does the Bible Support or Oppose Five-Point Calvinism?

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