Does the bible ever mention "free will"?

[HuntingMan]

All you have declared, pushed or tell me you need a freewill or choice for salvation. You even one time tried to twist the verses that declares God draws you to that view point of view. Man has no freewill or choice when it comes to God drawing you or anyone else.

There is no twisting chap...only YOUR refusal to accept ALL of the data...

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

 

[Benoni]

There is no twisting chap...only YOUR refusal to accept ALL of the data...

I have seen all your data and have no problem with every verse you quoted. My problem is your interpetation of those verses. Especially Romans 8:20.

Romans 9:12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. 19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and Why have you made me thus? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

Got to go be back later.

 

[itisdeliciouscake]

the only result of freewill can be sin.

 

[HuntingMan]

I have seen all your data and have no problem with every verse you quoted. My problem is your interpetation of those verses. Especially Romans 8:20.

Romans 9:12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. 19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and Why have you made me thus? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

Got to go be back later.

Huh...Romans 9...a passage thats context is about what has happened to Israel and NOT about the individual predestination of every human being in history.
Id suggest that you READ it in the context it is presented in, but I dont think you are listening to anything anyone is saying anyway.

I tell the truth in Christ, I do not lie, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great heaviness and continual pain in my heart. For I myself was wishing to be accursed from Christ for my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites; to whom belong the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the Law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ according to flesh, He being God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Not however that the Word of God has failed, for not all those of Israel are Israel;
(Rom 9:1-6 MKJV)

And as Isaiah said before, "Unless the Lord of hosts had left us a seed, we would have been as Sodom, and would have been like Gomorrah."
What shall we say then? That the nations, who did not follow after righteousness have taken on righteousness, but a righteousness of faith.
But Israel, who followed after a law of righteousness did not arrive at a law of righteousness. Why? Because it was not of faith, but as it were by the works of the Law. For they stumbled at that Stumbling-stone; as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a Stumbling-stone and a Rock-of-offense, and everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."
(Rom 9:29-33 MKJV)

Romans 9 is about Israel...its NOT about a mans ability to reject salvation or Gods drawing....

 

[HuntingMan]

the only result of freewill can be sin.

For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves; who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another, in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:14-16 MKJV)

...

 

[Benoni]

Huh...Romans 9...a passage thats context is about what has happened to Israel and NOT about the individual predestination of every human being in history.
Id suggest that you READ it in the context it is presented in, but I dont think you are listening to anything anyone is saying anyway.


Romans 9 is about Israel...its NOT about a mans ability to reject salvation or Gods drawing....

The NT is about the Church be it symbolic examples about Israel or direct reference.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

Allegory: Middle English allegorie, from Latin allegoria, from Greek allēgoria, from allēgorein to speak figuratively, from allos other + -ēgorein to speak publicly, from agora 1: the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence; also : an instance (as in a story or painting) of such expression2: a symbolic representation

God usesIsreal as a choosen people just like His Church is now;. His choosen people; when God speaks to about Israel He is speaking to us. Mt Zion was natuaral Mt Zion, and the there is a spiritual Mt Zion. you want to understand the spiritual then look what God is saying about the natural. First the natural then the spiritual.

 

[Benoni]

the only result of freewill can be sin.

Amen some one does read thier Bible. got to go

 

[HuntingMan]

Amen some one does read thier Bible. got to go

Thought you had to go a while ago?

You mean THIS bible ?

For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves; who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another, in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:14-16 MKJV)

 

[HuntingMan]

The NT is about the Church be it symbolic examples about Israel or direct reference.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

Allegory: Middle English allegorie, from Latin allegoria, from Greek allēgoria, from allēgorein to speak figuratively, from allos other + -ēgorein to speak publicly, from agora 1: the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence; also : an instance (as in a story or painting) of such expression2: a symbolic representation

God usesIsreal as a choosen people just like His Church is now;. His choosen people; when God speaks to about Israel He is speaking to us. Mt Zion was natuaral Mt Zion, and the there is a spiritual Mt Zion. you want to understand the spiritual then look what God is saying about the natural. First the natural then the spiritual.

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

ROMANS 9 is about the NATION of Israel and what has happened to her...it ISNT about individual predestination.

Its VERY funny hearing you say 'amen, finally someone who read the bible'...or some such comment...when its CLEAR that you dont even know the context of much of what you are reading yourself.

Are you claiming that the CHURCH has fallen over the stumbling block ?
You MUST be if you are saying that Romans 9 is about the church

But Israel, who followed after a law of righteousness did not arrive at a law of righteousness. Why? Because it was not of faithbut as it were by the works of the Law, . For they stumbled at that Stumbling-stone; as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a Stumbling-stone and a Rock-of-offense, and everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."
(Rom 9:29-33 MKJV)

.

 

[Benoni]

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

ROMANS 9 is about the NATION of Israel and what has happened to her...it ISNT about individual predestination.

Its VERY funny hearing you say 'amen, finally someone who read the bible'...or some such comment...when its CLEAR that you dont even know the context of much of what you are reading yourself.

Are you claiming that the CHURCH has fallen over the stumbling block ?
You MUST be if you are saying that Romans 9 is about the church




.

\

There are two churches in the Bible, Baby-lon and the ekklicia; baby-lion has fell over the stubbling block; that is a big amen.

So you’re a literalist and there is nothing hidden or spiritual in scripture; the letter killeth and all of your unbiblical creeds you have express all killeth, nothing brings life. I quoted from the Bible something spiritual and you reject it because you are a religious man; and not spiritual. You make fun of what God’s Word declares because it goes against everything you believe and how you see it; well your vision is carnal so what can I expect.

Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

example NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

 

[HuntingMan]

Let me REPEAT....


Are you claiming that the CHURCH has fallen over the stumbling block ?
You MUST be if you are saying that Romans 9 is about the church

But Israel, who followed after a law of righteousness did not arrive at a law of righteousness. Why? Because it was not of faithbut as it were by the works of the Law, . For they stumbled at that Stumbling-stone; as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a Stumbling-stone and a Rock-of-offense, and everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."
(Rom 9:29-33 MKJV)

NO way that Romans 9 is about ANYTHING other than the nation of Israel.
That is fact based on what is stated in the chapter.

 

[Benoni]

For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves; who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another, in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:14-16 MKJV)

This is not as negative as you try to portray it; all of God’s judgments are just; so what is your point? The judgments are according to the Gospel, or good news; sounds pretty positive to me.

​

 

[Benoni]

Let me REPEAT....


Are you claiming that the CHURCH has fallen over the stumbling block ?
You MUST be if you are saying that Romans 9 is about the church


NO way that Romans 9 is about ANYTHING other than the nation of Israel.
That is fact based on what is stated in the chapter.

Amen..

Romans 9: 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So who is the stumbling stone or block?

Don't get to spiritual you have already showed me you do not believe in symbolism?

 

[HuntingMan]

There are two churches in the Bible, Baby-lon and the ekklicia; baby-lion has fell over the stubbling block; that is a big amen.

NO, chap....the NATION of ISRAEL..the JEWS, stumbled over the stumbling block..
This is good..keep doing just what youre doing now and insisting on some error that any first yaer bible student can see easily is false and expose yourself entirely to everyone here as preaching a false gospel.
Youre doing a GREAT job of exposing your error for me.

Ekklesia, by the way, simply means 'to call out' or 'called out'...it in NO way designates a SECOND church.
WHERE do you get this stuff from ?

So you’re a literalist and there is nothing hidden or spiritual in scripture;

I am literalist where the word is MEANT literally.

the letter killeth and all of your unbiblical creeds you have express all killeth, nothing brings life.

This has not a thing to do with THIS discussion.

I quoted from the Bible something spiritual and you reject it because you are a religious man; and not spiritual.

No, you keep quoting one thing and claiming it means something it doesnt.
And apparently dont even see the PLAIN evidence that Romans 9 ISNT about the church but is about physical Israel, the NATION of Jews.

You make fun of what God’s Word declares because it goes against everything you believe and how you see it; well your vision is carnal so what can I expect.

Refuting YOUR fallacies has nothing to do with my saying anything about Gods word.

 

[HuntingMan]

Amen..

Romans 9: 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So who is the stumbling stone or block?

Don't get to spiritual you have already showed me you do not believe in symbolism?

man, you are ALL Over the place.
I say the same thing twice and first you disagree with it and then you agree with it.

I think every christian on this forum knows exactly who the 'stumbling stone' is/was.

 

[HuntingMan]

For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves; who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another, in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:14-16 MKJV)

This is not as negative as you try to portray it; all of God’s judgments are just; so what is your point? The judgments are according to the Gospel, or good news; sounds pretty positive to me.

​

the point is, since you missed it, that NOT EVERY act that free will makes is 'sin'...otherwise that scripture would be fallacious since no sinful UNrepentant man could commit anything BUT sin.

 

[Benoni]

man, you are ALL Over the place.
I say the same thing twice and first you disagree with it and then you agree with it.

I think every christian on this forum knows exactly who the 'stumbling stone' is/was.

Don't give me an excuse tell me? I do not believe I agree with you on this????

 

[Benoni]

the point is, since you missed it, that NOT EVERY act that free will makes is 'sin'...otherwise that scripture would be fallacious since no sinful UNrepentant man could commit anything BUT sin.

First of all I missed it because I never said this or did I ever think it. I was speaking of the sin nature that we are born with. Adam and Eve ate of the tree of good and evil; there are a lot of awesome non belivers out there in fact a lot of them our my friends. Yes we have a freewill to sin;ut that does not make you bad; it can make you terrible; but my point has always been we do not have a freewill to be saved. Just because you are born in sin does not make you a bad person.

 

[Benoni]

the point is, since you missed it, that NOT EVERY act that free will makes is 'sin'...otherwise that scripture would be fallacious since no sinful UNrepentant man could commit anything BUT sin.

Your statement not mine????

 

[Benoni]

NO, chap....the NATION of ISRAEL..the JEWS, stumbled over the stumbling block..
This is good..keep doing just what youre doing now and insisting on some error that any first yaer bible student can see easily is false and expose yourself entirely to everyone here as preaching a false gospel.
Youre doing a GREAT job of exposing your error for me.

Ekklesia, by the way, simply means 'to call out' or 'called out'...it in NO way designates a SECOND church.
WHERE do you get this stuff from ?



I am literalist where the word is MEANT literally.



This has not a thing to do with THIS discussion.


No, you keep quoting one thing and claiming it means something it doesnt.
And apparently dont even see the PLAIN evidence that Romans 9 ISNT about the church but is about physical Israel, the NATION of Jews.


Refuting YOUR fallacies has nothing to do with my saying anything about Gods word.

God could care less about the Jews right now; they are not even in the picture now; they will be in His timing. Israel is not the jews, the Jews were only one tribe.

The Bible is a spiritual Book and the vast majority of God's Word is spiritual as well as symbolic and a mystery. Carnal men only see the letter that killeth. Your message is a message of death and torture not of good news.