Does society need to be run by God's law?

[dobieman0488]

From my friend:

The Old Testament civil law was never done away with by Jesus, in Israel, God made the laws. In America, Congress makes the law, so Congress is America's God. We should repent of this idolatry, and go back to a nation run by the Old Testament if we ever want to honor God as a nation.

Thoughts?

 

[rgleason]

From my friend:

The Old Testament civil law was never done away with by Jesus, in Israel, God made the laws. In America, Congress makes the law, so Congress is America's God. We should repent of this idolatry, and go back to a nation run by the Old Testament if we ever want to honor God as a nation.

Thoughts?

If we could live by the old testament (covenant) then we don't need a new one.

2 Corinthians 3:6
"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

2 Corinthians 3:3
"You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts."
(The 10 commandments are the only part of the law written in stone).

Hebrews 12:4
"..to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel."

Hebrews 8:13
"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

Hebrews 9:14-15
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

1 Corinthians 11:25
...after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

 

[starlightbright]

Your friend is not alone in thinking this way. From a bible believer's POV, it makes a lot of sense.

 

[rgleason]

Yes, society needs to be run by "God's law"!
[SIZE=-2][/SIZE]1 Timothy 1:9 "We also know that the law is made not for the righteous....."
... for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and
profane, for murderers of fathers, and murderers of mothers, for man-slayers, ...

 

[SilverBlade]

Romans 13:1-7 states: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.”

So..doesn't this pretty much mean that Christians are called to obey the laws of the land (government)?

 

[sinning machine]

When GOD has finished creating us, by teaching us this lesson of good & evil
and having gathered us back in, the law will be named love and love the law.

 

[Hizikyah]

Psalm 89:34, "My covenant I will not break, nor will I change the Law that has gone out of My lips."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Deuteronomy 17:18-19, "When he sits on the throne of his kingdom, then he shall write for himself a copy of this Law (borrowed from the priests who are Levites), on a scroll. It is to remain with him, and he is to study it all the days of his life, so he may learn to reverence Yahweh his Father by carefully observing all the words of this Law and these statutes."

By taking it to himself he is following it, once you follow it you know you must judge according to it.

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants;And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth alanguish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

 

[Mazzaroth]

From my friend:

The Old Testament civil law was never done away with by Jesus, in Israel, God made the laws. In America, Congress makes the law, so Congress is America's God. We should repent of this idolatry, and go back to a nation run by the Old Testament if we ever want to honor God as a nation.

Thoughts?

I think this is a great question. If you understand that congress is an authority that is not of God, then it would be important to read Romans 13 and demolish the misconception that this implores us to obey all the laws of men.

Shall I assume the position of such a destroyer and revealer? ;P

Romans 13
[sup]1[/sup] Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. [sup]2[/sup] Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. [sup]3[/sup] For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. [sup]4[/sup] For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. [sup]5[/sup] Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

Romans 13:1
A: Is our president a Christian?
How many of us understand that God lets things happen?

Romans 13:2
A: Do you believe this is true? How many Christian organizations are rebelling against the authorities which govern abortion clinics and homosexual rights? In how many ways are the governing authorities proven to be a godless (merely human, or demonic) force?

Romans 13:3
A: You do realize that in instances such as a military draft the governing authorities are forcing men to become potential murderers? Thou shalt not kill?

Romans 13:4
A: To me, this just honestly sounds like some human trying to put a saddle on God's people and ride them around town. While these things may have been true for them in their era, in today's age it is entirely different and it should be obvious how different it is.

Romans 13:5
A: So... 4 and 5 are essentially saying by reason of fear we are to submit to the authorities which are likewise merciless in judgement as per the nature of a God who has laid down His life for us in that we simply come to a full and true repentance (okay that WAS sarcastic ).



...doesn't Revelation say something about the cowardly?


The truth of the matter is the regulations of the American government are morally unkempt from the Christian perspective and yet nonetheless fit to govern the godless. Better it than none at all, and yet if an orthodox Christian tried to set foot onto the playing field they would be met with endless dilemmas of conscience and command. This should make it clear to all Christians that the affairs of the world are not within their territory, and that their duty is merely to live humbly and peacefully amidst those who (by mandate of God) have been given the free will to roam outside of the faith.

So let's emphasize one of the less complex things that set the church and state apart: The bible commands us not to kill, and yet many do not consider casualties of war as part of the Christian trespasses. To me it is ridiculously desperate of an individual to excuse murder in an attempt to reconcile their godless environment with their religious philosophy. It is better for them to admit it makes no sense at all than to salvage irrational reasons in order to continue to believe in something. Anyway...

Let's ask this: Would a Christian president be able to engage in war with other nations? He would be a murderer, and he would also be a meddler, and he would also be a corrupter of multitudes. Yet can you imagine what would happen to us if the nation did not defend itself? Better it is then to let the authorities do as they like, and to acknowledge that Satan is just as much of an authority on this planet as God as well as the principalities.

1 Peter 4
"[sup]15[/sup] But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters."

What a great burden lifted from our hearts, no? Ours is the humble work; meek avoidance and bellies full of bread as the whole world dances and dies before our eyes. Take no heed of the teachings of this world and do not be fooled by the impostor churches and authorities; the Spirit will reside within you and you will hear its Voice if it is your will to truly befriend God.

We all fail and continue to fail and endure to fail, but thankfully God will never fail. I can imagine that a long time from now the "government" will look nothing like the one we see today. The government we reside in right now is for those who have no sense of morality or restraint, and because of this there needs to be a means of protecting people from and regulating the godless. Seeing as those in the faith are fit to govern themselves through their self-willed obedience and abstinence (and solely perform the works of the Spirit), there may be no need for a physical government like the one(s) we see today.

 

[candle glow]

ACTS 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I think it's important to be able to get a balance. There are some laws of the land which are worth obeying, like stopping for traffic lights or not littering. Then there are some laws worth disobeying, like going to war or stop preaching.

I think it's something similar with OT laws. Some of them aren't even necessariliy spiritual laws, but health laws or practical laws, like hand washing or giving servants a day of rest.

Haha there is one law which says that, if two men are fighting, and the wife of one of the men grabs the other man by the "secrets" in order to help her husband then her hand should be cut off. LOL

I wonder if that kind of harsh penalty would be more effective than jail time or cash settlements out of court.

 

[Breezee]

Hi Mazzaroth.
You make some good points. It is not the role of Christians to rule the world.

Again, the devil taketh him [Jesus] up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. (Matthew 4:8-9)

It is the Devil who rules the World. The way we influence the world is by putting our faith into action. Living as Christ lived. Which I think excludes us from a lot of things that worldly governments do. Like killing our "enemies" or oppressing the poor and weak to support the rich and powerful.

Political allegiance blinds you to the bigger picture. God doesn't have a favorite country any more. That ended with the advent of the NT.
We owe allegiance to God, not to men. Jesus is the King of Kings, really!

 

[rgleason]

Psalm 89:34, "My covenant I will not break, nor will I change the Law that has gone out of My lips."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Deuteronomy 17:18-19, "When he sits on the throne of his kingdom, then he shall write for himself a copy of this Law (borrowed from the priests who are Levites), on a scroll. It is to remain with him, and he is to study it all the days of his life, so he may learn to reverence Yahweh his Father by carefully observing all the words of this Law and these statutes."

By taking it to himself he is following it, once you follow it you know you must judge according to it.

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants;And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth alanguish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

You have put new wine in old winskins.

 

[rgleason]

ACTS 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

AMEN!!!

 

[JohnsDani]

Absolutely! Psalm 100:3 (NIV) says; "Know that the LORD is God. It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, the sheep of his pasture". Sheep are very stubborn and foolish creatures. Sheep will wander right into the mouth of a wolf if given the chance. Sheep love what makes them feel good externally, even if it's not good for them. Sheep will follow a stray and disobedient sheep despite the sheep's stubborn nature; and in fact, there have been reports of flocks of sheep following one sheep off of a cliff! In short, because we are sheep, both stubborn and foolish, who long for a shepherd, we must read and abide by the Shepherds word.

Now, I see what you're saying as far as Congress and reverting to the Old Testament. I don't necessarily agree, because I see the Bible as God's word, and ALL of it should be followed; but even then, I doubt you and I, Christian and Christian, would have a problem with that. We'd run into problems with the non-believers, who don't want to follow the New OR Old Testament, because they just don't want anything to do with Christ. And with Christ giving us free-will as Joshua boldly restated, Joshua 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.", we can't force people to accept Christ and abide by his laws, as that is not according to the standard of righteousness that God has set before us. We can ONLY sow a seed, water it, and let God give the increase; as the increase can ONLY come from God.

This is a fallen world, and we can't afford to pressure people into Christianity. The way we go about evangelizing must change. Not bashing the people who do evangelize because most of us don't. But we do need to realize that in order to get through to people, we have to find THEIR NEED, whether it be spiritual, emotional, physical, mental, etc... we need to address their need, and THEN share the gospel with them. They will not be receptive to a person who seems as if they are trying to "SELL" them Jesus. In regards to the world and abiding by God's laws, I highly advise reading Alan Hirsch's "The Forgotten Ways". It's a masterpiece, and this guy is genius. Check it out when you get a chance.

 

[Yahu]

From my friend:

The Old Testament civil law was never done away with by Jesus, in Israel, God made the laws. In America, Congress makes the law, so Congress is America's God. We should repent of this idolatry, and go back to a nation run by the Old Testament if we ever want to honor God as a nation.

Thoughts?

Israel as a nation was the priesthood for all of the gentiles. America is NOT.

The laws for the priesthood were much stricter even among the Israelites. For example there were additional rules that only applied to the Levites or the high priestly line.

As a gentile nation, we are not held to the same level. The differing levels of law is required so as to hold the priesthood to a higher standard so they may not be brought under condemnation.

Now the moral law is still valid but the social laws do not apply to us.

 

[Nurbz]

No... the law is pretty awful.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Numbers 15:32-36
While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Lev 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves who may belong to you—you may buy male and female slaves from the nations all around you. Also you may buy slaves from the children of the foreigners who reside with you, and from their families that are with you, whom they have fathered in your land, they may become your property. You may give them as inheritance to your children after you to possess as property. You may enslave them perpetually. However, as for your brothers the Israelites, no man may rule over his brother harshly.

Ezekial 20:24
Because the Israelites in the wilderness disobeyed my laws and prayed to the gods of their forefathers, I resolved to vent my fury on them. However, I resisted so that I should not be shamed in the eyes of the nations who saw me bring them out of Egypt, and instead I imposed evil statutes on them and laws which could not lead to life. I made them sacrifice their children in fire, that they might know remorse; then they would know I am the Lord.

Deuteronomy 13:12-17
If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, and none of the condemned things are to be found in your hands. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestor

 

[Sketcher]

The Israelite criminal code does not pertain to the church. If someone believes that it does, then he would have to explain why the Christians exorcised and converted those who had been involved in sorcery (Acts 16:18, Acts 19:19) instead of killing them per Exodus 22:18. And why Paul ordered that the adulterer who slept with his stepmom be banished in 1 Corinthians 5:1-2 rather than killed per Deuteronomy 22:22. Jesus gave us a mission of conversion (Matthew 28:18-20), and you obviously cannot convert the dead.

 

[Sketcher]

No... the law is pretty awful.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Numbers 15:32-36
While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Lev 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves who may belong to you—you may buy male and female slaves from the nations all around you. Also you may buy slaves from the children of the foreigners who reside with you, and from their families that are with you, whom they have fathered in your land, they may become your property. You may give them as inheritance to your children after you to possess as property. You may enslave them perpetually. However, as for your brothers the Israelites, no man may rule over his brother harshly.

Ezekial 20:24
Because the Israelites in the wilderness disobeyed my laws and prayed to the gods of their forefathers, I resolved to vent my fury on them. However, I resisted so that I should not be shamed in the eyes of the nations who saw me bring them out of Egypt, and instead I imposed evil statutes on them and laws which could not lead to life. I made them sacrifice their children in fire, that they might know remorse; then they would know I am the Lord.

Deuteronomy 13:12-17
If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, and none of the condemned things are to be found in your hands. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestor

Before judging it as "awful," do you even know how the Orthodox Jews view it and interpret it?

 

[CGL1023]

From my friend:

The Old Testament civil law was never done away with by Jesus, in Israel, God made the laws. In America, Congress makes the law, so Congress is America's God. We should repent of this idolatry, and go back to a nation run by the Old Testament if we ever want to honor God as a nation.

Thoughts?

I think if we went to a system of religious law,we would open ourselves to the abuses represented by the Pharisees and the Sadducees of Jesus time. Where, except in religious law would you find a man being crucified for healing on the Sabbath. On the surface this sounds ludicrous. This sounds no different than the Taliban decreeing that a woman be stoned for an offence no more serious, in our culture, than a misdemeanor. With religious law comes thought police and morality police.

In spite of this, people want Islamic Sharia Law in the West.

 

[Nurbz]

Before judging it as "awful," do you even know how the Orthodox Jews view it and interpret it?

No, the words do a pretty good job of speaking for themselves. Especially if asked to follow the law today (and not just cherry-picked parts)

 

[Sketcher]

No, the words do a pretty good job of speaking for themselves. Especially if asked to follow the law today (and not just cherry-picked parts)

Sounds like you need to. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 for instance bothered me enough to ask a rabbi about - after all, this is something that his daughters and other women in his community would need to live by. As it turns out, fathers have the right of refusal, but the rapist still needs to pay the fine regardless. And according to Jewish tradition, the woman is never given in marriage without her opinion being consulted. The Baptist scholar John Gill also agreed with this interpretation: Deuteronomy 22:29 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.

Or if you don't care to actually research and get the facts behind what bothers you, you could just continue to misunderstand, and hate what you misunderstand because you misunderstand it. Personally, I don't think we can afford to misunderstand what we end up hating, but what you do in your own mind is ultimately up to you.