Does sin have purpose?

[AmericanCatholic]

Every human (other then Christ who came to earth with Godly type Love) that has ever obtained Godly type Love initially accepted that Love through accepting God’s forgiveness/mercy/grace/Love. We know of know other way and I do not see any other way, so sin is required to initially accept forgiveness (Love) from God.

Did God love Adam and Eve before they sinned?

 

[bling]

Did God love Adam and Eve before they sinned?

Thank you for bring them up. Any interpretation is only as good as it’s handling of the perceived exceptions. Adam and Eve are very unique.

Yes! God Loved them like He Loves all innocent people. But did the two way transaction of Love happen between God and Adam & Eve? God Loves all that He created, but that does not mean all have received His Love.
Can you “accept” God’s Love with the wrong attitude?
Did the transaction of “Love” happen if you feel the following way:
• If God Loves him, then he surely must Love me, because I am a good guy.
• An extension on the loan (Matt. 18: 21-35)
• So how much do I owe you?
• What must I do now? (No free lunch)
• I knew if I played my cards right I could bluff my way in.
• I could possible use some fire insurance.
• Doesn’t membership have some privileges?
• I have kept the rules.

We know “…If you Love me you will obey me…” so Adam and Eve did not “Love” God. But the question is did they receive God’s Love?
The rain falls on the atheist field and the Christian’s field, so did they both receive God’s Love?
Adam and Eve where good obedient Children and had no reason to believe God would not love them as a wonderful parent loves wonderful children, but that is not Godly type Love and God is Loving them with greater Love then a parent /Child love.
How would Adam & Eve ever recognize Godly type Love from God, since they did not need that type Love from God?
Why would Adam & Eve need to humble themselves before God, they had done nothing wrong?

 

[AmericanCatholic]

It's not a question of whether Adam and Eve loved God, but whether God required Adam and Eve to sin before His love for them could be effective. You stated that " sin is required to initially accept forgiveness (Love) from God". You are suggesting that sin is a component of love.

 

[bling]

It's not a question of whether Adam and Eve loved God, but whether God required Adam and Eve to sin before His love for them could be effective. You stated that " sin is required to initially accept forgiveness (Love) from God". You are suggesting that sin is a component of love.

I would not say that at all. It is a component of humans initially accepting God’s Love. It is not what God/Christ/Holy Spirit need to Love and there is no initial point for them they always were and so always Loved.
One reason I see it as an initial component for humans is because, so far, it has always been the initial component. All mature adult humans have sinned, so they all need forgiveness. Forgiveness is part of Godly type Love.

 

[Hismessenger]

American Catholic.

Since God is a perfect God and makes no mistakes nor is surprized by anything in this creation. How do you explain the exsistance of sin apart from God's devine presence. What can come into being in what He created if He has not willed it to be so. Can a cancer cell develope apart from a body. It is the same with all in the creation. God has purpose in it and his infinite mind is so far above ours that we can't even fathom what it is that He is doing with His creation. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that He is refining It to make it more acceptable to what He sees as it's end. If sin did not have purpose, it would not, could not be here.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

American Catholic.

 

[MadHermit]

I do not know if we can say definitively that God created sin in the way God would define "created". God allowed satan and others to sin of their own free will.

God created Satan to be our adversary. There is nothing to suggest that Satan rebelled by his own free will.

1 John 3:8
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
NKJV

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV

 

[bling]

God created Satan to be our adversary. There is nothing to suggest that Satan rebelled by his own free will.

1 John 3:8
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
NKJV

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV

The two verse you quote do not suggest God created satan for evil. The first one says, Jesus was manifested by destroying satan’s works, but not that God made satan.

“from the beginning” can mean from the beginning of human time. Satan was an angel and was good at one time prier to His fall.

Using John 8: 44 …When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Scripture says, satan lies from his Own Resources and in contrast from the way Christ speaks. God did not create satan to rebel, but that does not mean there would not be those that would rebel from all God created.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Since God is a perfect God and makes no mistakes nor is surprized by anything in this creation. How do you explain the exsistance of sin apart from God's devine presence.

The "creation" of sin suggests sin has a purpose. In response to the original post, my answer is "no", sin does not have a purpose. I assert this claim because God not only because God is perfectly good, but that He is good. The "existence" of sin is not the actual existence of anything; it is the absence of something.

What can come into being in what He created if He has not willed it to be so. Can a cancer cell develope apart from a body.

I do not think the analogy is valid.

God has purpose in it and his infinite mind is so far above ours that we can't even fathom what it is that He is doing with His creation. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that He is refining It to make it more acceptable to what He sees as it's end. If sin did not have purpose, it would not, could not be here.

The good God makes or illustrates from evil does not suggest that God created sin for that specific purpose. Rather, it's an immediate demonstration of God's power who has the capacity to subdue evil for his own purposes. I think the assertion that God's goodness requires evil to operate effectively implies a weakness in His goodness. God is good and therefore good exists as something apart to itself. Evil therefore "exists" in contrast to good, and not vice versa. Why does an all-powerful, all-good, and perfect God require that which He is not to justify Himself?

 

[bling]

The "creation" of sin suggests sin has a purpose. In response to the original post, my answer is "no", sin does not have a purpose. I assert this claim because God not only because God is perfectly good, but that He is good. The "existence" of sin is not the actual existence of anything; it is the absence of something.



I do not think the analogy is valid.



The good God makes or illustrates from evil does not suggest that God created sin for that specific purpose. Rather, it's an immediate demonstration of God's power who has the capacity to subdue evil for his own purposes. I think the assertion that God's goodness requires evil to operate effectively implies a weakness in His goodness. God is good and therefore good exists as something apart to itself. Evil therefore "exists" in contrast to good, and not vice versa. Why does an all-powerful, all-good, and perfect God require that which He is not to justify Himself?

What example do you have (other then Christ) of a normal mature adult human obtaining Godly type Love without first receiving Godly type Love from God through forgiveness?
If sin is not necessary then why do all have to sin?
Is it sin for God to allow sin to happen by free will agents He has created?

 

[AmericanCatholic]

What example do you have (other then Christ) of a normal mature adult human obtaining Godly type Love without first receiving Godly type Love from God through forgiveness?

Adam and Eve before the fall? Would God have created them with any other kind of love and considered them "good"? And if they weren't created with that kind of love, from what did they fall?

If sin is not necessary then why do all have to sin?

Necessary for what? Love? Forgiveness? Something else? Sin's "necessity" in forgiveness exists by default, but even forgiveness and mercy follow from love, and do not come before it. So I do not think that sin is necessary whatsoever for love even if it is necessary for mercy as one expression of that same love. I also think your question is inversed -- I do not believe anyone must necessarily sin because Adam and Eve were created in God's image, which I imagine does not include sin. So I do not think there was anything in their nature which made necessary for them to sin, though free will certainly made it possible.

 

[bling]

Am Catholic said:
Adam and Eve before the fall? Would God have created them with any other kind of love and considered them "good"? And if they weren't created with that kind of love, from what did they fall?

Yes, they would have instinctively: a parent/ child love, spousal love, friendship type love, love of nature, love of beauty, love of creation, love of good, love of other created beings, and a love of self (ego and desire for self preservation). Their Love for God as their most wonderful giving parent would be very strong. The problem is God can not instinctively provide them with Godly type Love as explained in the Bible and especially with 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 4, since that type Love requires the agent to make the free will choice to Love over other likely perceived alternatives.
Adam and Eve fell from the relationship with God that was not separated by sin.
Adam and Eve did not have Godly type Love for if they had they would not have disobeyed. “…if you Love me you will obey me…” They did not need God to Love them with Godly type Love since they were up until they sinned wonderful obedient children. They would have had to humbly accept God’s free undeserving gift of Godly type Love, with out have a real need to humble themselves since they had done nothing wrong.

Am Catholic said:
Necessary for what? Love? Forgiveness? Something else? Sin's "necessity" in forgiveness exists by default, but even forgiveness and mercy follow from love, and do not come before it. So I do not think that sin is necessary whatsoever for love even if it is necessary for mercy as one expression of that same love. I also think your question is inversed -- I do not believe anyone must necessarily sin because Adam and Eve were created in God's image, which I imagine does not include sin. So I do not think there was anything in their nature which made necessary for them to sin, though free will certainly made it possible.

At extremely great personal sacrifice God has chosen to Love us. His Love is portrayed as being totally unselfish. We have been created in such a way that we can also obtain such a Love to at least some extent. That ability to Love is as far as God can go in making us like Him, since Godly type Love is the personal choice of the independent agent. God can not force this Love on us (robotic Love), but He can make it as easy as possible for us to just accept this Love from Him. The easiest way is to accept Godly type Love is in the form of forgiveness/ mercy/ grace/ Love.

To avoid the punishment of “death” Adam and Eve were created with the desire for self preservation. Self preservation creates self esteem and an ego which works against humbling oneself and trusting in others. It takes trust and humility to accept an undeserving gift as an undeserving gift.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Adam and Eve did not have Godly type Love for if they had they would not have disobeyed.

Does "Godly type Love" preclude free will?

 

[LST 1154]

Though our corrupt nature is not eradicated, short of our total glorification, the Christian, when rightly related to indwelling Spirit, has the ability to overcome. This success, if it's to become a reality in daily life, calls for a peculiar and altogether different plan or principle of living. While provision is made, I would approach with skepticism anyone claiming they've no sin.

In Christ,
Tracey

You say that "the Christian, when rightly related to [the] indwelling [Holy] Spirit, has the ability to overcome [sin.]" I believe that nearly all Christians would agree with this statement! I believe that most Christians think that surely somewhere in the world there must be at least one Christian that God has so filled with His Holy Spirit that sin no longer has any dominion over him or her. This Christian most likely has the ability to resist all sinful actions (but ONLY because of the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the fact that he (or she) is abiding completely and totally in Christ.) They actually find the Christian walk to be an easy and natural way of life.

I happen to know at least two people who are like this.

Right about now most of you are beginning to get upset. You are thinking "sure somewhere there may be someone but he or she cannot be here or now. The audacity of this stupid jerk to think that the Christian life is "easy and natural" I've been a Christian for XX years and I still have to fight hard against sin each and every day. This guy is nothing but a self righteous Pharisee and obviously doesn't know what sin is."

So we have on one hand you say "it is possible" and on the other "no it isn't?" So which is it?

Ben

 

[bling]

Does "Godly type Love" preclude free will?
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No, if you have Godly type Love you can and will obey, but you can quench your Love and disobey. If you do not have Godly type Love then you can do nothing right. 1 Cor 13.

 

[bling]

You say that "the Christian, when rightly related to [the] indwelling [Holy] Spirit, has the ability to overcome [sin.]" I believe that nearly all Christians would agree with this statement! I believe that most Christians think that surely somewhere in the world there must be at least one Christian that God has so filled with His Holy Spirit that sin no longer has any dominion over him or her. This Christian most likely has the ability to resist all sinful actions (but ONLY because of the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the fact that he (or she) is abiding completely and totally in Christ.) They actually find the Christian walk to be an easy and natural way of life.

I happen to know at least two people who are like this.

Right about now most of you are beginning to get upset. You are thinking "sure somewhere there may be someone but he or she cannot be here or now. The audacity of this stupid jerk to think that the Christian life is "easy and natural" I've been a Christian for XX years and I still have to fight hard against sin each and every day. This guy is nothing but a self righteous Pharisee and obviously doesn't know what sin is."

So we have on one hand you say "it is possible" and on the other "no it isn't?" So which is it?

Ben

I agree that with the indwelling Holy Spirit we can keep from sinning, but it is easy with our free will to quench the Spirit and be selfish. I thought for a long time all modern day Christians sinned daily. Only after teaching Bible in prison did I see truly Spirit filled Christians under strong persecution sometimes risking their lives that had to and did go for long periods of time not sinning (they were watched constantly by sniches looking for a sign of weakness so the bulls could try to make them slaves.) Any sign of sinning would cause them to be attacted and some were attacked for just looking like they might have sinned.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Does sin have purpose?

Is sin inevitable for a mature adult human?

Would God have realized even without foreknowledge that even the best humans He could make would over an infinite amount of time not be able to of their own human power to continue to be obedient?

Would you prefer to have your eternal close relationship with God dependent on you personal ability to be obedient or on God’s love/grace/mercy?

How are Adam and Eve better off out side the Garden after sinning then in the garden prior to sinning?

I'd say that if sin does have a purpose, it is to show us more clearly when we wander from God ultimately how much we truly need Him. You can be a parent telling a child not to do something and why, but many times the child will not fully get "why" until they do the action and learn things the hard ways.