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Does science change?

Archie Dupont

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Do remember this, modern science is built on Christian ideas.

That is bold credit claiming where non is due.

Religion has more than often halted scientific progress in it's tracks. Burning people who thought the earth was round; executing people who thought there are more planets like ours; banishing people who thought the earth moves around the sun.

You cannot seriously believe that religion can be credited for scientific progress in any way.

In the time of the old Greek civilization, scientist made discoveries (like estimating the diameter of the earth up to a few hundred kilometers) that were largely forgotten and inquisitioned away when Christianity got it's foothold in Europe. If anything Christianity has halted scientific progress in the last few centuries.
 
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Archie Dupont

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Science changes, and that's generally a good thing.

Religion changes, and that's generally a bad thing.

Science plods along, feeling it's way, making mistakes, making corrections, making discoveries that overturn old ideas. It moves forward, but haltingly, using strong inference. Science, for example, figured out hormonal contraception. Now they are figuring out how those chemicals accumulate in the environment and what bad effects they have on wildlife. They learned a lot. The application of what they learned isn't as friendly as the basic science involved.

Religion plods along, feeling it's way, making corrections. Hopefully the old ideas are confirmed and clarified. A greater depth is good, and totally new directions are bad. If one comes up with a totally new religious idea one should really wonder where they went wrong. After 500 years of new ideas, we should wonder a lot.

Science and faith are, in the long run, totally compatible. In the short run things may be rocky, but one should not dump either.

A good comparison, but I would want to change it a little bit. Science will try to correct and improve ideas in a way that makes sense to other people. (Im sorry cliche) Einsteins idea: if you can't explain it to a child so it understands, do you really even understand it yourself.

Religion will often claim a certain truth, fail to give a sensible explanation to it, claim the truth is in the spiritual world (so a rational explanation is by default excused) and can only be understood by having faith instead of rationalising.

Point being with science and religion: they may have sort of the same development, they are definitely not doing that with the same intentions, methods and speed.
 
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Tolworth John

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Evolution doesn't contradict any of these
Sorry evolution denies that there is any thing other than the material.
As all evolutionist know atheism is the logical outcome of believing in evolution.
Your problem is you are not a clear thinker and so deludeyourself that an atheistic view, that is evolution, can be married to Christianity.
 
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Archie Dupont

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Sorry evolution denies that there is any thing other than the material.
As all evolutionist know atheism is the logical outcome of believing in evolution.
Your problem is you are not a clear thinker and so deludeyourself that an atheistic view, that is evolution, can be married to Christianity.

You just shut out millions of Christians who believe in Theistic Evolution. They even make some compelling arguments how and why God created the concept of evolution. Does that mean that all those Christians are wrong and you are right?
 
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Tolworth John

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That is bold credit claiming where non is due.

Religion has more than often halted scientific progress in it's tracks. Burning people who thought the earth was round; executing people who thought there are more planets like ours; banishing people who thought the earth moves around the sun.

You cannot seriously believe that religion can be credited for scientific progress in any way.

In the time of the old Greek civilization, scientist made discoveries (like estimating the diameter of the earth up to a few hundred kilometers) that were largely forgotten and inquisitioned away when Christianity got it's foothold in Europe. If anything Christianity has halted scientific progress in the last few centuries.
Yes the greeks, egyptians, babylonians, chinese, indians as well as south american peoples discovered many things, some of which we have built on.
But the ancient greek , egyptian, chinese etc cultures have not influence the world as much as Christianity.

As I said only Christianity supplied the belief in a consistent, reasonable and understandable universe. As well as permission to investigate it.

Look again at the 'so called dark ages' you will find that learning and scientific investigation happened because of the church.

Can you give a reason why the universe is consistent and understandable?
Please supply chapter and verse of the atheistic and evolutionary writtings that explain this.
 
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Tolworth John

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You just shut out millions of Christians who believe in Theistic Evolution. They even make some compelling arguments how and why God created the concept of evolution. Does that mean that all those Christians are wrong and you are right?

You asume that evolution is right.
There is no scientific evidence that any creature has evolved into another, only a faith based belief that it has.

As I am sure you are aware evolution was promoted by those who hated God.
So why should Christians believe in it?

Jesus said 'By there fruits you will know who are my disciples'
Look at the 'fruit' of believe in evolution.
Can you name any good thing that has happened purely because of a belief in evolution?
 
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Archie Dupont

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As I said only Christianity supplied the belief in a consistent, reasonable and understandable universe. As well as permission to investigate it.

Christianity does not have a monopoly on the development of science. On the contrary, it has thwarted science on a many occasion, as I have said before, with examples. It is also extremely privileged and arrogant to suggest Christianity has given 'permission' to do scientific research. Scientist don't owe religion anything and I think science is much better off without it. Science was there long before Christianity and would probably be much further if not for the Dark Ages you so rightly point out. See other posts of me why religion and science are not in the same league at all and should be viewed completely separate.

Can you give a reason why the universe is consistent and understandable?
Please supply chapter and verse of the atheistic and evolutionary writtings that explain this.

This is of course not reasonable to ask. I am not qualified on the subject. Apparently neither are you. You cannot state that something is not there simply because you haven't seen it. In my opinion, there is not (yet) a reason why the universe is consistent and understandable. But the fact that we don't know that yet, doesn't mean that we have to invent a reason for it.

I believe in God and the morality in most of the Bible, but I don't see any indication that the Bible (or other religious sources) has the authority to make a baseless claim that it knows the reason of the consistency and understandable universe.
 
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Colter

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I all-too-often encounter the idea that science is untrustworthy because it changes, and only the Bible is trustworthy because it doesn't change.

It seems some people think science is in constant flux and each new observation or experiment or hypothesis or theory completely invalidates everything that came before. If this were true, automobiles and computers would suddenly quit working every time a scientist publishes a paper in a scientific journal.

Do Christians really think they have to reject modern science to practice their faith? Shouldn't they instead adapt their pre-scientific views of the Bible to match modern science?
Claims in the Bible have been disproven but religion has its on stubborn pride. Jesus presented a different Heavenly Father than the one depicted in the Old Testament.

Science progresses as well and is forced to change when new facts appear. But some basic facts of science are a part of God’s immutable Laws.
 
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Archie Dupont

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You asume that evolution is right.
There is no scientific evidence that any creature has evolved into another, only a faith based belief that it has.

There is, and quite a lot of it. Look at the genetic research, plate tectonics, old earth geology, fossils, enz. Please support this statement with substance.

As I am sure you are aware evolution was promoted by those who hated God.

A completely baseless claim. You think science and religion are hostile towards each other? Scientist don't really care what you believe. They base their information on what they see and research. Please support this statement with substance

Can you name any good thing that has happened purely because of a belief in evolution?

Here you again switch the burden of proof to the side that does not need to proof anything. You name a bad thing that has happened because of a belief in evolution. I for one can name a lot of bad things in the bible that would support a negative picture of scriptural morality. But that doesn't invalidate Christianity. Don't try to do that to evolution in turn.
 
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Tayla

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Not so sure about the non-evolution bit, I mean not in all of its particulars or implications. The common ancestor idea might turn out to be significantly different or more complicated than currently assumed.
Yes. That's my point exactly. The changes are limited to a smaller domain, not affecting the overall propositions.
 
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Tayla

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Your problem is you are not a clear thinker
Sorry; all my professors said I was one of the clearest thinkers they had ever encountered, able to synthesize information from a wide variety of sources.

I believe the Bible is the word of God. But I notice when people interpret it radically different. For example, Protestants say saved by faith alone, Catholics say saved by faith mingled with works, James says the same as the Catholics. Why should I believe the Protestants since they don't match the Bible? I fall back on the Nicene Creed and the Trinity.

And I believe the scientists because their methods lead to automobiles, computers, GPS satellites, voyages to the moon, and etc. Their errors are limited to denying the spiritual realm.
 
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Tayla

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Science progresses as well and is forced to change when new facts appear. But some basic facts of science are a part of God’s immutable Laws.
Yes, the changes in science are progression, developments. The foundation is stable. My complaint is that some Christians seem to think anything with the word "science" attached is untrustworthy. My claim is that science can be used to determine the age of the earth, whether or not a global flood occurred, and the origin of species. And these contradict the young earth creation view. So I choose science over a mere fallible interpretation of scripture.

Yes, the word of God doesn't change. But human interpretations of the word of God do change, and many are currently in error.
 
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Colter

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Yes, the changes in science are progression, developments. The foundation is stable. My complaint is that some Christians seem to think anything with the word "science" attached is untrustworthy. My claim is that science can be used to determine the age of the earth, whether or not a global flood occurred, and the origin of species. And these contradict the young earth creation view. So I choose science over a mere fallible interpretation of scripture.

Yes, the word of God doesn't change. But human interpretations of the word of God do change, and many are currently in error.
I believe the Word of God is the Living truth while the Bible is the written word, primarily human interpretations of the doings of God. There are errors and contradictions in the written word as should be expected. There are multiple versions of the same events.

Example:

2 Samuel 24:1 Compared to 1 Chronicles 21:1
(2 Samuel 24:1) And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

200 years later beliefs changed, the same event written about in another book now blame Satan:

(1 Chronicles 21:1) And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.


The creation story in Genesis was a creation of man who was ignorant of evolution and science.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Strong claim.

So do link the process that stops evolution for every species and prevents micro evolution accruing over millions of years transforming species as their environment changes and they adapt.


Like I said. I know exactly what the process for adaptation is and I got it by reading scientific literature. You don't have the foggiest. And yes the same process that allows speices to adapt prevents them from changing into differant animals. My point in using this is to begin with the fact that you walk by faith not by observable testable science.
Once you can admit to that fact. That you have faith in something even though you don't understand it or have any idea on a mechanism that can cause it. Then you and I have some grounds on which we can have a legit discussion on that mechanism. Which I'll reveal to you and you can look the papers on it on your own.
Otherwise you'll take the untenable position that you have "observable testable science" and since I beleive in the Bible I only have faith as your argument. Its designed is to do nothing but cover your eyes and ears lest you hear or see scientific evidence that is contrary to your faith. It will leave me with no alternative to goad and flame and mock you for which I'll get kicked off. Gone through this a hundred times which leaves me in doubt that you would be the exception.
 
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Hawkins

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I all-too-often encounter the idea that science is untrustworthy because it changes, and only the Bible is trustworthy because it doesn't change.

It seems some people think science is in constant flux and each new observation or experiment or hypothesis or theory completely invalidates everything that came before. If this were true, automobiles and computers would suddenly quit working every time a scientist publishes a paper in a scientific journal.

Do Christians really think they have to reject modern science to practice their faith? Shouldn't they instead adapt their pre-scientific views of the Bible to match modern science?

You need to first know what science is and why modern people have to twisted it. They redefine science in order to accommodate the incompatible evolution. The this new definition, they sound as if science is all about evidence while it's not!

This is what the nature of science is,
======
Science is about the prediction of an end-to-end repetition. Science is accurate because it's always about something which can repeat infinitive number of times for humans to observe and most importantly to predict how it repeats to draw a conclusion. The methodology ToE employed is completely different from any other science. This is so simply because it takes millions of years for an end-to-end evolution to possibly repeat itself. We don't have that time to observe and predict how it repeats to draw any scientific conclusion.

If you implicitly claim that a human can be evolved from in the end a single cell organism, then you have to make the single-cell to human process repeats itself infinitive number of times for humans to do enough observations, and most importantly predictions on how this repeats in order to draw a scientific conclusion. That's how each and every single science works.

This is so because humans are creatures of the present. We don't have the capability to reach the past, and we don't have the capability to reach the future. It is because we have no capability to reach the future that if we can correctly and repeatedly predict how a phenomenon repeats itself into the future, we know that we hit a truth in terms of how we make use of a "theory" to predict the repetition. This is the nature of science and why it is accurate. In a nutshell, science is the making use of predictions repeatedly to identify a truth (which can repeat). ToE is a valid hypothesis in suggesting that evolution (from single cell to fully grown) can be a repeating process (of natural selection). However it's not up to the scientific accuracy as long as you can't make it repeat itself (to the extent of infinitive number of times) for the prediction of its repetition to be made correctly and repeatedly.

That said, to me the theory of common ancestry is a joke in concluding that everyone has an invisible common ancestor without knowing who it is. In terms of how things work, the genes are so if you would like that animal to have its appearance and behavior. If you want a chimp to have its current appearance and behavior, you need the genes to be so disregarding whether the genes share anything in common with that of humans. Everything else can be anything, not necessarily be a result of evolution. It can be a result of interbreeding or a mixture of interbreeding and adaptation. The difference between adaption and evolution is that species can be selected by the nature, however this may not be the way how they are brought to their current state from a single cell.

An analogy is that whenever you see someone in uniform sitting in the cockpit of a plane, you draw the conclusion that he's a pilot. This can be true however it's a pure speculation. He's a pilot when he launches and lands a plane from one airport to another repeatedly as we predict. Then he's a pilot. This what science is and how it makes a difference from the pure speculation. Similarly, when you see how nature changes a species to draw the conclusion that nature can drive a single cell to that species, it's a pure speculation. If you can predict repeatedly how a single cell turns into that species without error, only then you have a science!
 
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Halbhh

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I all-too-often encounter the idea that science is untrustworthy because it changes, and only the Bible is trustworthy because it doesn't change.

It seems some people think science is in constant flux and each new observation or experiment or hypothesis or theory completely invalidates everything that came before. If this were true, automobiles and computers would suddenly quit working every time a scientist publishes a paper in a scientific journal.

Do Christians really think they have to reject modern science to practice their faith? Shouldn't they instead adapt their pre-scientific views of the Bible to match modern science?

Too many seem as if they need a certain version of creation to be right, as compared to other versions of creation.

That should set off an urgent alarm!

Quick! Run! Escape that building and go to safety!

Here's the only rock that will let a person endure and make it! --

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” - Christ Jesus, our Lord, Matthew 7:24-27


Yes, it says that -- only if you are hearing His words and putting them into practice, doing, in your life, do you have a safe foundation and assurance to make it through alive!
 
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expos4ever

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Heyyyy I never said that...I believe the opposite. How'd my name get attached to that comment
I don't know how your name appears in my post. I was replying to something grandliseur, not you, wrote.

Moderators: either there is a bug or someone is tinkering illicitly with posts.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Do remember this, modern science is built on Christian ideas.
Just the opposite actually.
Think about what the middle ages Reformers knew and taught already then (hundreds of years ago):
Basically 'corporations/ feudal lords/ big business' ever since then (and before then also) has been built
NOT on Christian ideas, but opposed to Christ, on that one secret word.
 
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Dawnhammer

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Like I said. I know exactly what the process for adaptation is and I got it by reading scientific literature. You don't have the foggiest. And yes the same process that allows speices to adapt prevents them from changing into differant animals. My point in using this is to begin with the fact that you walk by faith not by observable testable science.
Once you can admit to that fact. That you have faith in something even though you don't understand it or have any idea on a mechanism that can cause it. Then you and I have some grounds on which we can have a legit discussion on that mechanism. Which I'll reveal to you and you can look the papers on it on your own.
Otherwise you'll take the untenable position that you have "observable testable science" and since I beleive in the Bible I only have faith as your argument. Its designed is to do nothing but cover your eyes and ears lest you hear or see scientific evidence that is contrary to your faith. It will leave me with no alternative to goad and flame and mock you for which I'll get kicked off. Gone through this a hundred times which leaves me in doubt that you would be the exception.

That’s a long text (which I didn’t read )to say

“I can’t link anything I claim because nothing exists to support it.”
 
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