Does science actually admit "design"?

[OldWiseGuy]

LOL!

My gosh, the desperation...

This is even worse that your molecules=tissues desperation antics.

Please let us all review your original (erroneous) assertions/implications:

How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened? Or that the throat tightens and the voice becomes weak under certain stressful situations. This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain. The signal gets there via the RLN in the case of the giraffe.​

After I show that your position is poppycock, you engage in a desperate face-saving maneuver in which you want to address only this one point:


"What is the difference between "unconscious response" (my term), and "reflex" (your term)?"



Why, one has to wonder, are you attempting to divert focus onto a single term rather than your layman's notion that:

How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened?​

"Unconscious vocal signals" do NOT 'get to' the brain, they are INITIATED IN the brain.

Or maybe this layman's notion:

Or that the throat tightens and the voice becomes weak under certain stressful situations. This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain.​

Um..... NO. This is NOT what the 'throat tightens' is. Look up "visceral reaction" in your newly found medical source. What do you see?

Or since this is all a mere difference in terminology (according to your new antic) - maybe "visceral response"?

Nope.

The 'body' does not control the "voice box" - that is not how it works, and trying to divert attention away from the fact that you do not understand how the body works by trying to salvage a 'win' by focusing on a single word is only making you look desperate.

WAIT! There is more:

The signal gets there via the RLN in the case of the giraffe.​

The signal gets there FROM THE BRAIN, not the 'body'. In your new medical source, since it deals with medical issues, we can see from this:


"Paralysis of one vocal cord can result from brain disorders, such as brain tumors, strokes, and demyelinating diseases (such as multiple sclerosis), or damage to the nerves that lead to the voice box (larynx). Nerve damage may be caused by noncancerous (benign) and cancerous (malignant) tumors; neck injury; surgery to the neck, such as surgical removal of the thyroid gland or spinal surgery; a viral infection of the nerves; Lyme disease; neurotoxins (substances that poison or destroy nerve tissue), such as lead, mercury, and arsenic; or the toxins produced in diphtheria. The cause is unknown for some people."

If 'the body' controlled the larynx (i.e., speech), then why aren't the viscera considered as a possible source for vocal cord paralysis? And by the way - there are no nerves that go from viscera to the larynx, in case you were thinking of looking for an out.

Why can you not simply admit that you are out of your depth and move on? Squirming for dominance or something?





I eagerly await the next installment of "Yeah but, what about X???"......

So you're saying there is no such thing as a reflexive vocal reaction (like the 'knee jerk')?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

LOL!

My gosh, the desperation...

This is even worse that your molecules=tissues desperation antics.

Please let us all review your original (erroneous) assertions/implications:

How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened? Or that the throat tightens and the voice becomes weak under certain stressful situations. This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain. The signal gets there via the RLN in the case of the giraffe.​

After I show that your position is poppycock, you engage in a desperate face-saving maneuver in which you want to address only this one point:


"What is the difference between "unconscious response" (my term), and "reflex" (your term)?"



Why, one has to wonder, are you attempting to divert focus onto a single term rather than your layman's notion that:

How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened?​

"Unconscious vocal signals" do NOT 'get to' the brain, they are INITIATED IN the brain.

Or maybe this layman's notion:

Or that the throat tightens and the voice becomes weak under certain stressful situations. This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain.​

Um..... NO. This is NOT what the 'throat tightens' is. Look up "visceral reaction" in your newly found medical source. What do you see?

Or since this is all a mere difference in terminology (according to your new antic) - maybe "visceral response"?

Nope.

The 'body' does not control the "voice box" - that is not how it works, and trying to divert attention away from the fact that you do not understand how the body works by trying to salvage a 'win' by focusing on a single word is only making you look desperate.

WAIT! There is more:

The signal gets there via the RLN in the case of the giraffe.​

The signal gets there FROM THE BRAIN, not the 'body'. In your new medical source, since it deals with medical issues, we can see from this:


"Paralysis of one vocal cord can result from brain disorders, such as brain tumors, strokes, and demyelinating diseases (such as multiple sclerosis), or damage to the nerves that lead to the voice box (larynx). Nerve damage may be caused by noncancerous (benign) and cancerous (malignant) tumors; neck injury; surgery to the neck, such as surgical removal of the thyroid gland or spinal surgery; a viral infection of the nerves; Lyme disease; neurotoxins (substances that poison or destroy nerve tissue), such as lead, mercury, and arsenic; or the toxins produced in diphtheria. The cause is unknown for some people."

If 'the body' controlled the larynx (i.e., speech), then why aren't the viscera considered as a possible source for vocal cord paralysis? And by the way - there are no nerves that go from viscera to the larynx, in case you were thinking of looking for an out.

Why can you not simply admit that you are out of your depth and move on? Squirming for dominance or something?





I eagerly await the next installment of "Yeah but, what about X???"......

So there really is no reflexive action not coming from the brain? Can you explain this (from one of my links),


Reflexes
"A reflex is an automatic response to a stimulus. For example, the lower leg jerks when the tendon below the kneecap is gently tapped with a small rubber hammer. The pathway that a reflex follows (reflex arc) does not directly involve the brain. The pathway consists of the sensory nerve to the spinal cord, the nerve connections in the spinal cord, and the motor nerves back to the muscle."

You might want to google "Gut Feelings" as well. It's the source of my "the body has a mind of it's own" comment.

Gut Feelings–the "Second Brain" in Our Gastrointestinal Systems [Excerpt]

I don't know if you're the one to be representing all there is to know about this subject. You don't seem to be up to date on some of it.

 

[tas8831]

So you're saying there is no such thing as a reflexive vocal reaction (like the 'knee jerk')?

No, but then, neither are you. And it is so cute how you want to employ the layman's use of 'reflex' in a scientific discussion. Which we are not actually having because only one of us in this exchange understands the science of the topic at hand.

A "reflexive vocal reaction" (in reality, a volitional vocal response) does not start in the viscera, no matter how you are going to try to spin this to save face and cover your spectacular ignorance of basic biology.

Remember what you actually wrote?


" This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain."

Making a noise when scared or in pain is a 'reaction' to the pain or the fear, not a reflex. There is no physiological function in making a noise when someone steps on your toe or you are scared. An actual reflex has a physiological function. The test we call the 'knee jerk reflex' tests a spinal reflex that helps prevent us from falling when we walk. The "voice box" is controlled by the brain, NOT the viscera.

ACTUAL reflexes are different - my gosh, YOU linked to the Merck page with a diagram and explanation of reflexes, and you are actually trying to weasel your way out of your errors?

Again, why is it so hard for supposed Christians to admit error and move on? YECs are, by and large, the most prideful, egocentric people I have ever encountered.

 

[tas8831]

The gift that that just keeps on giving and doesn't know when to stop...

So there really is no reflexive action not coming from the brain? Can you explain this (from one of my links),


Reflexes
"A reflex is an automatic response to a stimulus. For example, the lower leg jerks when the tendon below the kneecap is gently tapped with a small rubber hammer. The pathway that a reflex follows (reflex arc) does not directly involve the brain. The pathway consists of the sensory nerve to the spinal cord, the nerve connections in the spinal cord, and the motor nerves back to the muscle."

Nothing wrong with that.


But that is not what you wrote, This is:


" This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain."

And lets not forget this gem:


"How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened? "


I'd probably try to cover up the fact that I had written something so silly, too. If I were you. After having boasted of having a high IQ and all that ego-puffing.

But I am not you. I try not to pontificate on things I can actually understand that I don't know much about. I am not an egotist YEC with a failing religion to prop up at all costs.

What you cannot seem to grasp - due to you obvious ignorance of basic biology - is that the knee-jerk reflex is NOT at all like making sound.

You can do your precious little keyword searches and take things out of context and try to spin and do your historical revisionism all you want, and you will still be wrong, AND in the process of trying to save face, simply provide further evidence of your ignorance of anatomy and physiology. So keep it up!

You might want to google "Gut Feelings" as well. It's the source of my "the body has a mind of it's own" comment.

Gut Feelings–the "Second Brain" in Our Gastrointestinal Systems [Excerpt]

I don't know if you're the one to be representing all there is to know about this subject. You don't seem to be up to date on some of it.

First, I have never claimed or implied that I know all there is to know on any subject - not being a YEC, I tend not to think that way in the first place.
Second, having taken graduate level anatomy and physiology classes, and having taught anatomy and neuroscience (as well as cell biology, immunology, evolution, etc.) at the college level, I think I probably know more about the matter than some retired dude that cannot seem to grasp basic freshman level biology.

For future reference - try this:

The Neural Basis of Speech and Language
http://samples.jbpub.com/9781449652678/74738_CH02_FINAL.pdf

You might actually learn something. Doubt it, but you might.


Anyway, it is absolutely hilarious that you are trying to equate this with your farcical claims about "unconscious vocal signals" getting TO the brain.

From your link:

Our brain and gut are connected by an extensive network of neurons and a highway of chemicals and hormones that constantly provide feedback about how hungry we are, whether or not we’re experiencing stress, or if we’ve ingested a disease-causing microbe. ...

The enteric nervous system is often referred to as our body’s second brain. There are hundreds of million of neurons connecting the brain to the enteric nervous system, the part of the nervous system that is tasked with controlling the gastrointestinal system. This vast web of connections monitors the entire digestive tract from the esophagus to the anus [weird - no mention of controlling the "voice box" when scared!]....

While our “second” brain cannot compose a symphony or paint a masterpiece the way the brain in our skull can, it does perform an important role in managing the workings of our inner tube. ...

Operations of the enteric nervous system are overseen by the brain and central nervous system. The central nervous system is in communication with the gut via the sympathetic and parasympathetic branches of the autonomic nervous system, the involuntary arm of the nervous system that controls heart rate, breathing, and digestion...

This circuitry of neurons, hormones, and chemical neurotransmitters not only sends messages to the brain about the status of our gut, it allows for the brain to directly impact the gut environment....
​

And so on...


Did you actually read it? Or did you get so geeked out because it had the words 'gut' and 'brain' in it and thought that would be enough to prove that signals for vocalizations come from the gut? Because you just don't know any better and cannot bring yourself to admit it?

So.... This is the downside of someone that is clearly smart, but not as informed on subjects that they have no real education or experience in but feel compelled to pontificate on to protect their outdated religious views - they cannot understand the material, do keyword searches, skim a few sentences of the top returns, then present them as PROOF! of their claims.

VINDICATION! the overconfident yet totally under-informed creationist proclaims.
Only to be hoisted by their own petard yet again due to the very ignorance that got them in the jam in the first place.

AGAIN - why is it so hard for creationists to just admit they were wrong about something?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The gift that that just keeps on giving and doesn't know when to stop...

Nothing wrong with that.


But this is not what you wrote:


" This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain."

And lets not forget this gem:


"How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened? "


I'd probably try to cover up the fact that I had written something so silly, too. If I were you. After having boasted of having a high IQ and all that ego-puffing.

But I am not you. I try not to pontificate on things I can actually understand that I don't know much about. I am not an egotist YEC with a failing religion to prop up at all costs.

What you cannot seem to grasp - due to you obvious ignorance of basic biology - is that the knee-jerk reflex is NOT at all like making sound.

You can do your precious little keyword searches and take things out of context and try to spin and do your historical revisionism all you want, and you will still be wrong, AND in the process of trying to save face, simply provide further evidence of your ignorance of anatomy and physiology. So keep it up!





First, I have never claimed or implied that I know all there is to know on any subject - not being a YEC, I tend not to think that way in the first place.
Second, having taken graduate level anatomy and physiology classes, and having taught anatomy and neuroscience (as well as cell biology, immunology, evolution, etc.) at the college level, I think I probably know more about the matter than some retired dude that cannot seem to grasp basic freshman level biology.

For future reference - try this:

The Neural Basis of Speech and Language
http://samples.jbpub.com/9781449652678/74738_CH02_FINAL.pdf

You might actually learn something. Doubt it, but you might.


Anyway, it is absolutely hilarious that you are trying to equate this with your farcical claims about "unconscious vocal signals" getting TO the brain.

From your link:

Our brain and gut are connected by an extensive network of neurons and a highway of chemicals and hormones that constantly provide feedback about how hungry we are, whether or not we’re experiencing stress, or if we’ve ingested a disease-causing microbe. ...

The enteric nervous system is often referred to as our body’s second brain. There are hundreds of million of neurons connecting the brain to the enteric nervous system, the part of the nervous system that is tasked with controlling the gastrointestinal system. This vast web of connections monitors the entire digestive tract from the esophagus to the anus [weird - no mention of controlling the "voice box" when scared!]....

While our “second” brain cannot compose a symphony or paint a masterpiece the way the brain in our skull can, it does perform an important role in managing the workings of our inner tube. ...

Operations of the enteric nervous system are overseen by the brain and central nervous system. The central nervous system is in communication with the gut via the sympathetic and parasympathetic branches of the autonomic nervous system, the involuntary arm of the nervous system that controls heart rate, breathing, and digestion...

This circuitry of neurons, hormones, and chemical neurotransmitters not only sends messages to the brain about the status of our gut, it allows for the brain to directly impact the gut environment....
​

And so on...


Did you actually read it? Or did you get so geeked out because it had the words 'gut' and 'brain' in it and thought that would be enough to prove that signals for vocalizations come from the gut? Because you just don't know any better and cannot bring yourself to admit it?

So.... This is the downside of someone that is clearly smart, but not as informed on subjects that they have no real education or experience in but feel compelled to pontificate on to protect their outdated religious views - they cannot understand the material, do keyword searches, skim a few sentences of the top returns, then present them as PROOF! of their claims.

VINDICATION! the overconfident yet totally under-informed creationist proclaims.
Only to be hoisted by their own petard yet again due to the very ignorance that got them in the jam in the first place.

AGAIN - why is it so hard for creationists to just admit they were wrong about something?

You still don't get it. I didn't say speech, I said sounds, vocalizations. Big difference.

 

[tas8831]

So you're saying there is no such thing as a reflexive vocal reaction (like the 'knee jerk')?

I'm saying that you do not understand what reflexes are, and do not understand how vocalizations (as if that is functionally different from generating speech! LOL! the desperation is hilarious!) are produced as proven by your own silly assertions:

" If the larynx needs a signal from the aortic arch that loop is a great way to facilitate the 'my heart was in my throat' response."


I was going to quote some more, but that gem takes the cake.

Please provide evidence that "the aortic arch" sends motor input to the larynx. Via the RLN.

 

[tas8831]

You still don't get it. I didn't say speech, I said sounds, vocalizations. Big difference.

No difference at all - you simply do not understand any of this and cannot face that simple fact due to your egotism.


" If the larynx needs a signal from the aortic arch that loop is a great way to facilitate the 'my heart was in my throat' response."

Please provide evidence that "the aortic arch" sends motor input to the larynx. Via the RLN.


Oh - you forgot to admit that your links totally did not help your cause at all! Trying to bury that now? Too bad - I will keep reminding everyone.

 

[tas8831]

As to the other point about pre-coded instructions in the genome here is one link:

The "God" Part of the Brain

Functional codes (which the genome is) do not invent themselves OR appear out of random coincidence

Hi phsun2404!

I was reading a debate on the divine inspiration of the bible from 2014, and I see that your antics never change:

"I am not impressed that you plagiarized Apologetics Press for the entire first half of your post. I thought I was debating Pshun2404, but clearly I'm debating unknown authors."

Even worse that, like you did when I caught you plagiarizing here a few weeks ago, you pretended that you had never heard of the article you plagiarized, despite the fact that the content matches VERBATIM - well, except for the purposeful altering of a couple of words (such as replacing "Free" (an archaeologist's name) with "He"), or like the debate winner documented:

From Apologetics Press:

" In an article that appeared in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies a half-century ago, professor Joseph Free listed several instances of Egyptian archaeological finds supporting the domestication of camels."

From Pshun2404:

"In an article that appeared in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies (1944 edition, pp. 189-190), archaeologist Joseph Free, lists several instances supporting the domestication of camels."

to try to claim that it wasn't plagiarized. Weird how often that seems to happen to you. Almost like magic or something.


I would think that folks that portray themselves as being so well read and informed, AND being Christians, would refrain from such activities.

But I see that is just not to be.

 

[tas8831]

That's my point. If the same nerve pathway can serve different functions in different organisms, that's just good design.

But the RLN serves the SAME function in humans and giraffes.

Remind us all again about your study of anatomy and such?

 

[tas8831]

Yep, mutations tend to damage good design. The purpose of that self repair mechanism.

So.... AiG and OWG claim that it is good design, but here you are saying it is 'damage..

So which is it?

When evolutionists disagree on something, creationists typically rejoice and declare victory based on the 'evolutionists own words'.

HOORAY! YECism proven false by actual creationists' own words!

 

[tas8831]

Creationists wonder why evolutionists get so frustrated with their antics that we use insults more than they do.

Nice example - I write this lengthy, referenced response in which I explain the creationist's mistakes and explain how his own reference does not support his claims:

**********************************

So there really is no reflexive action not coming from the brain? Can you explain this (from one of my links),


Reflexes
"A reflex is an automatic response to a stimulus. For example, the lower leg jerks when the tendon below the kneecap is gently tapped with a small rubber hammer. The pathway that a reflex follows (reflex arc) does not directly involve the brain. The pathway consists of the sensory nerve to the spinal cord, the nerve connections in the spinal cord, and the motor nerves back to the muscle."

Nothing wrong with that.


But this is not what you wrote:


" This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain."

And lets not forget this gem:


"How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened? "


I'd probably try to cover up the fact that I had written something so silly, too. If I were you. After having boasted of having a high IQ and all that ego-puffing.

But I am not you. I try not to pontificate on things I can actually understand that I don't know much about. I am not an egotist YEC with a failing religion to prop up at all costs.

What you cannot seem to grasp - due to you obvious ignorance of basic biology - is that the knee-jerk reflex is NOT at all like making sound.

You can do your precious little keyword searches and take things out of context and try to spin and do your historical revisionism all you want, and you will still be wrong, AND in the process of trying to save face, simply provide further evidence of your ignorance of anatomy and physiology. So keep it up!

You might want to google "Gut Feelings" as well. It's the source of my "the body has a mind of it's own" comment.

Gut Feelings–the "Second Brain" in Our Gastrointestinal Systems [Excerpt]

I don't know if you're the one to be representing all there is to know about this subject. You don't seem to be up to date on some of it.

First, I have never claimed or implied that I know all there is to know on any subject - not being a YEC, I tend not to think that way in the first place.
Second, having taken graduate level anatomy and physiology classes, and having taught anatomy and neuroscience (as well as cell biology, immunology, evolution, etc.) at the college level, I think I probably know more about the matter than some retired dude that cannot seem to grasp basic freshman level biology.

For future reference - try this:

The Neural Basis of Speech and Language
http://samples.jbpub.com/9781449652678/74738_CH02_FINAL.pdf

You might actually learn something. Doubt it, but you might.


Anyway, it is absolutely hilarious that you are trying to equate this with your farcical claims about "unconscious vocal signals" getting TO the brain.

From your link:

Our brain and gut are connected by an extensive network of neurons and a highway of chemicals and hormones that constantly provide feedback about how hungry we are, whether or not we’re experiencing stress, or if we’ve ingested a disease-causing microbe. ...

The enteric nervous system is often referred to as our body’s second brain. There are hundreds of million of neurons connecting the brain to the enteric nervous system, the part of the nervous system that is tasked with controlling the gastrointestinal system. This vast web of connections monitors the entire digestive tract from the esophagus to the anus [weird - no mention of controlling the "voice box" when scared!]....

While our “second” brain cannot compose a symphony or paint a masterpiece the way the brain in our skull can, it does perform an important role in managing the workings of our inner tube. ...

Operations of the enteric nervous system are overseen by the brain and central nervous system. The central nervous system is in communication with the gut via the sympathetic and parasympathetic branches of the autonomic nervous system, the involuntary arm of the nervous system that controls heart rate, breathing, and digestion...

This circuitry of neurons, hormones, and chemical neurotransmitters not only sends messages to the brain about the status of our gut, it allows for the brain to directly impact the gut environment....
​

And so on...


Did you actually read it? Or did you get so geeked out because it had the words 'gut' and 'brain' in it and thought that would be enough to prove that signals for vocalizations come from the gut? Because you just don't know any better and cannot bring yourself to admit it?

So.... This is the downside of someone that is clearly smart, but not as informed on subjects that they have no real education or experience in but feel compelled to pontificate on to protect their outdated religious views - they cannot understand the material, do keyword searches, skim a few sentences of the top returns, then present them as PROOF! of their claims.

VINDICATION! the overconfident yet totally under-informed creationist proclaims.
Only to be hoisted by their own petard yet again due to the very ignorance that got them in the jam in the first place.

AGAIN - why is it so hard for creationists to just admit they were wrong about something?
*********************

And I get this blow-off reply:

"You still don't get it. I didn't say speech, I said sounds, vocalizations. Big difference. "

 

[tas8831]

You still don't get it. I didn't say speech, I said sounds, vocalizations. Big difference.

Can you at least admit that you really stepped in it when you linked to that Gut article:

You might want to google "Gut Feelings" as well. It's the source of my "the body has a mind of it's own" comment.

Gut Feelings–the "Second Brain" in Our Gastrointestinal Systems [Excerpt]

I don't know if you're the one to be representing all there is to know about this subject. You don't seem to be up to date on some of it.

First, I have never claimed or implied that I know all there is to know on any subject - not being a YEC, I tend not to think that way in the first place.
Second, having taken graduate level anatomy and physiology classes, and having taught anatomy and neuroscience (as well as cell biology, immunology, evolution, etc.) at the college level, I think I probably know more about the matter than some retired dude that cannot seem to grasp basic freshman level biology.

For future reference - try this:

The Neural Basis of Speech and Language
http://samples.jbpub.com/9781449652678/74738_CH02_FINAL.pdf

You might actually learn something. Doubt it, but you might.


Anyway, it is absolutely hilarious that you are trying to equate this with your farcical claims about "unconscious vocal signals" getting TO the brain.

From your link:

Our brain and gut are connected by an extensive network of neurons and a highway of chemicals and hormones that constantly provide feedback about how hungry we are, whether or not we’re experiencing stress, or if we’ve ingested a disease-causing microbe. ...

The enteric nervous system is often referred to as our body’s second brain. There are hundreds of million of neurons connecting the brain to the enteric nervous system, the part of the nervous system that is tasked with controlling the gastrointestinal system. This vast web of connections monitors the entire digestive tract from the esophagus to the anus [weird - no mention of controlling the "voice box" when scared!]....

While our “second” brain cannot compose a symphony or paint a masterpiece the way the brain in our skull can, it does perform an important role in managing the workings of our inner tube. ...

Operations of the enteric nervous system are overseen by the brain and central nervous system. The central nervous system is in communication with the gut via the sympathetic and parasympathetic branches of the autonomic nervous system, the involuntary arm of the nervous system that controls heart rate, breathing, and digestion...

This circuitry of neurons, hormones, and chemical neurotransmitters not only sends messages to the brain about the status of our gut, it allows for the brain to directly impact the gut environment....
​

And so on...
​

Or are you 100% incapable of exhibiting humility and admitting any errors at all?

 

[Jjmcubbin]

Creationists wonder why evolutionists get so frustrated with their antics that we use insults more than they do.

Nice example - I write this lengthy, referenced response in which I explain the creationist's mistakes and explain how his own reference does not support his claims:

**********************************



Nothing wrong with that.


But this is not what you wrote:


" This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain."

And lets not forget this gem:


"How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened? "


I'd probably try to cover up the fact that I had written something so silly, too. If I were you. After having boasted of having a high IQ and all that ego-puffing.

But I am not you. I try not to pontificate on things I can actually understand that I don't know much about. I am not an egotist YEC with a failing religion to prop up at all costs.

What you cannot seem to grasp - due to you obvious ignorance of basic biology - is that the knee-jerk reflex is NOT at all like making sound.

You can do your precious little keyword searches and take things out of context and try to spin and do your historical revisionism all you want, and you will still be wrong, AND in the process of trying to save face, simply provide further evidence of your ignorance of anatomy and physiology. So keep it up!





First, I have never claimed or implied that I know all there is to know on any subject - not being a YEC, I tend not to think that way in the first place.
Second, having taken graduate level anatomy and physiology classes, and having taught anatomy and neuroscience (as well as cell biology, immunology, evolution, etc.) at the college level, I think I probably know more about the matter than some retired dude that cannot seem to grasp basic freshman level biology.

For future reference - try this:

The Neural Basis of Speech and Language
http://samples.jbpub.com/9781449652678/74738_CH02_FINAL.pdf

You might actually learn something. Doubt it, but you might.


Anyway, it is absolutely hilarious that you are trying to equate this with your farcical claims about "unconscious vocal signals" getting TO the brain.

From your link:

Our brain and gut are connected by an extensive network of neurons and a highway of chemicals and hormones that constantly provide feedback about how hungry we are, whether or not we’re experiencing stress, or if we’ve ingested a disease-causing microbe. ...

The enteric nervous system is often referred to as our body’s second brain. There are hundreds of million of neurons connecting the brain to the enteric nervous system, the part of the nervous system that is tasked with controlling the gastrointestinal system. This vast web of connections monitors the entire digestive tract from the esophagus to the anus [weird - no mention of controlling the "voice box" when scared!]....

While our “second” brain cannot compose a symphony or paint a masterpiece the way the brain in our skull can, it does perform an important role in managing the workings of our inner tube. ...

Operations of the enteric nervous system are overseen by the brain and central nervous system. The central nervous system is in communication with the gut via the sympathetic and parasympathetic branches of the autonomic nervous system, the involuntary arm of the nervous system that controls heart rate, breathing, and digestion...

This circuitry of neurons, hormones, and chemical neurotransmitters not only sends messages to the brain about the status of our gut, it allows for the brain to directly impact the gut environment....
​

And so on...


Did you actually read it? Or did you get so geeked out because it had the words 'gut' and 'brain' in it and thought that would be enough to prove that signals for vocalizations come from the gut? Because you just don't know any better and cannot bring yourself to admit it?

So.... This is the downside of someone that is clearly smart, but not as informed on subjects that they have no real education or experience in but feel compelled to pontificate on to protect their outdated religious views - they cannot understand the material, do keyword searches, skim a few sentences of the top returns, then present them as PROOF! of their claims.

VINDICATION! the overconfident yet totally under-informed creationist proclaims.
Only to be hoisted by their own petard yet again due to the very ignorance that got them in the jam in the first place.

AGAIN - why is it so hard for creationists to just admit they were wrong about something?
*********************

And I get this blow-off reply:

"You still don't get it. I didn't say speech, I said sounds, vocalizations. Big difference. "

I see you've been broken down by their nonsense. Took you long enough.
I think I'm ready to run over that car guy with the dumbass car.

 

[tas8831]

I see you've been broken down by their nonsense. Took you long enough.
I think I'm ready to run over that car guy with the dumbass car.

Oh, so you are familiar with the Great Intellect?

 

[tas8831]

Another take-down of false and silly claims by the creationist that went completely ignored - ignoring refutations of uninformed assertions is a standard creationist tactic:

How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened? Or that the throat tightens and the voice becomes weak under certain stressful situations. This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain. The signal gets there via the RLN in the case of the giraffe.

So....

A non-biologist such as yourself posits that you are the only one that 'understands' the "mind of the body" [sic] - "influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain"



No.... You are apparently the only one that does NOT understand how the nervous system works.


Let us deconstruct the simple-mindedness of your high-IQ/spectacularly uninformed folly:


"How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened?"


Vocal signals LEAVE the brain, they do not go to it. :LOL:


In all of your study of anatomy, did you not once stop to inquire as to how these things actually work?

But let us employ your naive jargon - the same way ANY 'signal' gets to any part of the body when anything with a nervous system gets frightened.


You see, we cannot alter the speed of nerve impulses. Only the frequency of them. The speed of nerve impulses vary depending on the type of neuron (do you know what a neuron is? I mean without googling?), whether the axon is myelinated, the diameter of the axon, etc.
Regardless, it is at least 0.5 meters/sec. And that is for small diameter, unmyelinated fibers.

Fibers from viscera transmit impulses at around 15 m/sec - the larger, myelinated fibers can transmit at speeds up to 130 m/sec, but that is the high-end.

Fear or surprise are emotional responses to stimuli - stimuli received from our senses (smell, sight, hearing for the most part) by the brain, which then generates a response that, if there is a motor component (such as making a sound) then is sent out of the brain via motor neurons (whose speed of transmission is on the higher-end). So from the instant a 'scary' image or sound or smell is detected, it has to travel the few inches from sensory receptor to brain - get processed by thousands of neurons which are located nano- to millimeters apart from each other, then down motor neurons to the 'voice box'. In a giraffe, that greatest travel distance is along the RLN, maybe 15 feet according to creation.com (a totally 'trustworthy' site, right?) - so if we take the low end speed for motor neurons (which are myelinated - 12 m/sec), we are looking at a whopping 1/3 second.

Impulses get to where they are going "so fast" because that is how things work at the cellular level in the nervous system.

Shouldn't a person with an IQ of 135 that has been 'arguing' about evolution for at least a few years and who claims to have studied anatomy actually know these things?

 

[tas8831]

To my wiring analogy, the RLN is similar to a 'loop' found in many common electrical circuits. Great design, and economical as well. If the larynx needs a signal from the aortic arch that loop is a great way to facilitate the 'my heart was in my throat' response. Someday you guys will get it.

I 'got it' on the first page of your most recent thread on here - you are out of your depth and suffer from a rather malignant form of the Dunning-Kruger effect.


The fact that you think you scored some kind of point by making a naive analogy without understanding the pathway of information flow in the nervous system seals it.

 

[tas8831]

So it looks like OWG is using that tried-and-obvious tactic of just abandoning threads that he realizes he has lost bigly in...

Creationists wonder why evolutionists get so frustrated with their antics that we use insults more than they do.

Nice example - I write this lengthy, referenced response in which I explain the creationist's mistakes and explain how his own reference does not support his claims:

**********************************



Nothing wrong with that.


But this is not what you wrote:


" This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain."

And lets not forget this gem:


"How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened? "


I'd probably try to cover up the fact that I had written something so silly, too. If I were you. After having boasted of having a high IQ and all that ego-puffing.

But I am not you. I try not to pontificate on things I can actually understand that I don't know much about. I am not an egotist YEC with a failing religion to prop up at all costs.

What you cannot seem to grasp - due to you obvious ignorance of basic biology - is that the knee-jerk reflex is NOT at all like making sound.

You can do your precious little keyword searches and take things out of context and try to spin and do your historical revisionism all you want, and you will still be wrong, AND in the process of trying to save face, simply provide further evidence of your ignorance of anatomy and physiology. So keep it up!





First, I have never claimed or implied that I know all there is to know on any subject - not being a YEC, I tend not to think that way in the first place.
Second, having taken graduate level anatomy and physiology classes, and having taught anatomy and neuroscience (as well as cell biology, immunology, evolution, etc.) at the college level, I think I probably know more about the matter than some retired dude that cannot seem to grasp basic freshman level biology.

For future reference - try this:

The Neural Basis of Speech and Language
http://samples.jbpub.com/9781449652678/74738_CH02_FINAL.pdf

You might actually learn something. Doubt it, but you might.


Anyway, it is absolutely hilarious that you are trying to equate this with your farcical claims about "unconscious vocal signals" getting TO the brain.

From your link:

Our brain and gut are connected by an extensive network of neurons and a highway of chemicals and hormones that constantly provide feedback about how hungry we are, whether or not we’re experiencing stress, or if we’ve ingested a disease-causing microbe. ...

The enteric nervous system is often referred to as our body’s second brain. There are hundreds of million of neurons connecting the brain to the enteric nervous system, the part of the nervous system that is tasked with controlling the gastrointestinal system. This vast web of connections monitors the entire digestive tract from the esophagus to the anus [weird - no mention of controlling the "voice box" when scared!]....

While our “second” brain cannot compose a symphony or paint a masterpiece the way the brain in our skull can, it does perform an important role in managing the workings of our inner tube. ...

Operations of the enteric nervous system are overseen by the brain and central nervous system. The central nervous system is in communication with the gut via the sympathetic and parasympathetic branches of the autonomic nervous system, the involuntary arm of the nervous system that controls heart rate, breathing, and digestion...

This circuitry of neurons, hormones, and chemical neurotransmitters not only sends messages to the brain about the status of our gut, it allows for the brain to directly impact the gut environment....
​

And so on...


Did you actually read it? Or did you get so geeked out because it had the words 'gut' and 'brain' in it and thought that would be enough to prove that signals for vocalizations come from the gut? Because you just don't know any better and cannot bring yourself to admit it?

So.... This is the downside of someone that is clearly smart, but not as informed on subjects that they have no real education or experience in but feel compelled to pontificate on to protect their outdated religious views - they cannot understand the material, do keyword searches, skim a few sentences of the top returns, then present them as PROOF! of their claims.

VINDICATION! the overconfident yet totally under-informed creationist proclaims.
Only to be hoisted by their own petard yet again due to the very ignorance that got them in the jam in the first place.

AGAIN - why is it so hard for creationists to just admit they were wrong about something?
*********************

And I get this blow-off reply:

"You still don't get it. I didn't say speech, I said sounds, vocalizations. Big difference. "

 

[tas8831]

Yep, mutations tend to damage good design. The purpose of that self repair mechanism.

Still looking through keyword searches to try to spin a result into something that will sort of kind of look like it supports your silly claims and identical breeding pairs producing variation?

 

[Nithavela]

The debate centers around the evidence of creation, not faith.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

"They" are the atheistic scientists.

How many atheistic scientists were around when that book of the bible was written?

 

[tas8831]

Mouse.

Here are human, giraffe, and/or dolphin. Or are they?

They are all different, I will say that. It is hard to find pictures of different embryos at the same developmental stage, but I tried. You could find out yourself if you weren't so intellectually lazy.

So I take it OWG totally abandoned this aspect of your non-argument?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So it looks like OWG is using that tried-and-obvious tactic of just abandoning threads that he realizes he has lost bigly in...

You are not a pleasant person to interact with. Too many insults.