Does Rejection of Absolute Truth Hold Some in Homosexual Bondage?

[Zaac]

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:31-32

Are people held in bondage to homosexual fornication and fornication PERIOD as the result of not knowing Truth?

Many in this forum seem to be under the impression that no one can know the truth, and thus use that as an excuse to not adhere to what God's Word says about homosexual fornication.

If you know Jesus Christ and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, the Deliverer of Truth, how is it not possible to know absolute truth?

 

[OllieFranz]

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:31-32

Are people held in bondage to homosexual fornication and fornication PERIOD as the result of not knowing Truth?

Many in this forum seem to be under the impression that no one can know the truth, and thus use that as an excuse to not adhere to what God's Word says about homosexual fornication.

If you know Jesus Christ and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, the Deliverer of Truth, how is it not possible to know absolute truth?

[BIBLE]Luke 18:10-14[/BIBLE]

Are people held in bondage to Their own "righteousness" pride, and pride in general as the result of thinking they, who are sinners under grace, have the right to judge others who are also under grace?

Many in this forum seem to be under the impression that they are perfect, and thus use that as an excuse to not adhere to what God's Word says about judging other Christians.

If you know Jesus Christ and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the Deliverer of Truth, how is it possible to ignore the clear teachings of the Bible?

[BIBLE]Matthew 7:1-5[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Romans 2:1-3[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]James 4:11-12[/BIBLE]

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Homosexual Christians are no more chained down than heterosexual Christians.

 

[Zaac]

[BIBLE]Luke 18:10-14[/BIBLE]

Are people held in bondage to Their own "righteousness" pride, and pride in general as the result of thinking they, who are sinners under grace, have the right to judge others who are also under grace?

I'm working on that book on judgment cause some of yall still confused.

Many in this forum seem to be under the impression that they are perfect, and thus use that as an excuse to not adhere to what God's Word says about judging other Christians.

Show one person in this forum who has said that they are perfect.

If you know Jesus Christ and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the Deliverer of Truth, how is it possible to ignore the clear teachings of the Bible?

That's what I asked. How do you ignore it as truth? You may still sin, but how on earth do we get to the point that God's Word is no longer truth?

 

[Zaac]

Homosexual Christians are no more chained down than heterosexual Christians.

When it comes to homosexual fornication, they sure are.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

When it comes to homosexual fornication, they sure are.

Homosexual fornication, is a one time sin. So if they are held in bondage, so are you. We all have sins we don't recognize Zaac. It's a part of human pride. And don't say "NO I DON'T" because that's the point, you don't think that you do. I'm sure I have them too. It's why I appreciate some criticism once in a while so I can recognize it.

My point is, if they are, so are you, so am I, and so is everyone else on this forum. No one is entirely free.

 

[Zaac]

Homosexual fornication, is a one time sin.

How is something done again and again a one time sin?

So if they are held in bondage, so are you. We all have sins we don't recognize Zaac.

Have you seen where I have said otherwise?

It's a part of human pride. And don't say "NO I DON'T" because that's the point, you don't think that you do.

You're sniffing around trying to argue about something that has not been said.

I'm sure I have them too. It's why I appreciate some criticism once in a while so I can recognize it.

I asked about homosexual fornication bondage. Focus.

My point is, if they are, so are you, so am I, and so is everyone else on this forum. No one is entirely free.

Good you made your point. Now does someone else care to ANSWER the question?

 

[FaithLikeARock]

How is something done again and again a one time sin?



Have you seen where I have said otherwise?




You're sniffing around trying to argue about something that has not been said.



I asked about homosexual fornication bondage. Focus.



Good you made your point. Now does someone else care to ANSWER the question?

I've seen how you do nothing but condemn homosexual fornicators for going against God. I had to assume it was because you didn't know that. But knowing that you do, you're a hypocrite. I don't have to answer the question of such because you'll take it with a grain of salt. I did answer your question. None of us our truly free. But that's not good enough because that includes you, is that right?

 

[Zaac]

I've seen how you do nothing but condemn homosexual fornicators for going against God. I had to assume it was because you didn't know that. But knowing that you do, you're a hypocrite. I don't have to answer the question of such because you'll take it with a grain of salt. I did answer your question. None of us our truly free. But that's not good enough because that includes you, is that right?

Faith, go play.

 

[OllieFranz]

Show one person in this forum who has said that they are perfect.

Several persons in this forum have claimed that Matthew 7:1-5 does not apply to them because they have no "beams" in their eyes. Jesus' point is that we are all sinners and have not got the right to judge others. Just as in John 8 He said "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." He did not say "He that did not commit adultery among you..." He said "He that is without sin among you..."

I could get more specific, but then I'd be skirting the forum rules against discussing people rather than issues.

That's what I asked. How do you ignore it as truth?

You may still sin, but how on earth do we get to the point that God's Word is no longer truth?

God's Word is Truth. Our understanding of it, however, may be distorted. Leviticus does, in two verses, say that ואת־זכר לא תשכב משכבי אשה is תועבה but does ואת־זכר לא תשכב משכבי אשה encompass everything we mean when we speak of gay affection? There are good textual reasons for believing that the original meaning was more limited than the far-ranging ban modern Conservatives want to enforce. There are also good textual reasons for believing that ואת־זכר לא תשכב משכבי אשה is one of the "kosher" bans that were repealled by the council of Jerusalem. Might these beliefs be mistaken? Yes. But so might your interpretation.

Paul's mention of arsenokoitai in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy are probably references back to Leviticus, but his point in those verses is to show that everyone sins, and the specific sins don't matter as much as the overwhelming prevalence of sin. It is probably taking it a bit too far to claim that Paul was specifically condemning homosexuality.

And your interpretation of Romans 1:26-27 simply ignores both Paul's sources and his target audience. It is possible to argue your interpretation as a secondary meaning, but Paul went out of his way to minimize that possibility.


But the Four passages that I quoted are far more clearly aimed against exactly the type of devisive tactics and judgements we see here on this forum than the five passages are against every possible form of same-sex affection.

And they are just four of the most pointed. Every book of the New Testament either encourages humility and brotherhood or warns against haughtiness and pride, or both.

 

[BreadAlone]

Homosexual fornication, is a one time sin. So if they are held in bondage, so are you. We all have sins we don't recognize Zaac. It's a part of human pride. And don't say "NO I DON'T" because that's the point, you don't think that you do. I'm sure I have them too. It's why I appreciate some criticism once in a while so I can recognize it.

My point is, if they are, so are you, so am I, and so is everyone else on this forum. No one is entirely free.

But when you've been shown your sin and continue to reject the words of Christ, you're not in ignorance any longer.

 

[OllieFranz]

But when you've been shown your sin and continue to reject the words of Christ, your not in ignorance any longer.

So that some of you may not continue in ignorance:

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Paul here gives two examples of Levitical Law which have been eased as restrictions on Christians. One we sometimes label "ceremonial" (a restriction on non-kosher meat) and one we usually consider moral (honoring the Sabbath).

If someone chooses to continue to honor these restrictions it is a good thing, but it is not required. But if someone who has understood the Christian message differently and still thinks that he must follow the restrictions goes against his own conscience and breaks them, then he is sinning.

We are not to put a stumbling block before such a "weaker" brother and tempt him to break these restrictions, but neither is he to judge our honest understanding of the freedom we have in Christ. Instead both should edify one another in the important doctrines of Redemption and Salvation.

Paul says much the same thing to the Corinthians, Colossians and the Galatians as well. For example:

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

So as long as the gay Christians are not setting up a stumbling-block where "weaker" brothers are tempted into gay sex, they are following Paul's advice*.

Christians who believe that same-sex physical affection is sin under any circumstances are certainly free to express why they feel that way, but they are not free to condemn those who understand it differently.

*Yes there have been a few (not very many but a few) gay posters who have told other posters struggling with gay feelings to just give up and give in to those feelings. As long as the Christian so struggling still believes that it is wrong, those posters are setting up a stumbling-block and are in the wrong.

 

[Walpurgis]

The title confuses. I thought this was a thread about homosexual bondage. Disappointment.

 

[BreadAlone]

So that some of you may not continue in ignorance:


Paul here gives two examples of Levitical Law which have been eased as restrictions on Christians. One we sometimes label "ceremonial" (a restriction on non-kosher meat) and one we usually consider moral (honoring the Sabbath).

If someone chooses to continue to honor these restrictions it is a good thing, but it is not required. But if someone who has understood the Christian message differently and still thinks that he must follow the restrictions goes against his own conscience and breaks them, then he is sinning.

We are not to put a stumbling block before such a "weaker" brother and tempt him to break these restrictions, but neither is he to judge our honest understanding of the freedom we have in Christ. Instead both should edify one another in the important doctrines of Redemption and Salvation.

Paul says much the same thing to the Corinthians, Colossians and the Galatians as well. For example:



So as long as the gay Christians are not setting up a stumbling-block where "weaker" brothers are tempted into gay sex, they are following Paul's advice*.

Christians who believe that same-sex physical affection is sin under any circumstances are certainly free to express why they feel that way, but they are not free to condemn those who understand it differently.

*Yes there have been a few (not very many but a few) gay posters who have told other posters struggling with gay feelings to just give up and give in to those feelings. As long as the Christian so struggling still believes that it is wrong, those posters are setting up a stumbling-block and are in the wrong.

Paul says not to let anyone judge you by a Sabbath Day..that is, what day you celebrate it.

In other words, it doesn't matter if it's Monday or Saturday. So the moral principle of the sabbath still applies..just the day doesn't matter.

 

[OllieFranz]

Paul says not to let anyone judge you by a Sabbath Day..that is, what day you celebrate it.

In other words, it doesn't matter if it's Monday or Saturday. So the moral principle of the sabbath still applies..just the day doesn't matter.

Read it again. Paul says:

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

If someone, who sees every day as a gift from God chooses to not set aside special days to honor above the rest of the week, let him do so to the LORD

 

[BreadAlone]

Read it again. Paul says:


If someone, who sees every day as a gift from God chooses to not set aside special days to honor above the rest of the week, let him do so to the LORD

You still must never "give up meeting together as some are in the habbit of doing."

 

[OllieFranz]

You still must never "give up meeting together as some are in the habbit of doing."

True, because we need to encourage one another. If we choose to do it one day every week for that reason that is OK, especially if it means that we will be inthe same place at the same time as the "weaker" bretheren who are gathering because of the Sabbath. I don't know about your church, but active, regular fellowship is not confined to just Sunday service. There are Wednesday night Bible studies, Saturday Pot Lucks, etc.

But by focusing on the question of the Sabbath is we've gotten off topic from the question as to whether an understanding of the Bible to say Christians are free of the Levitical "mishkav zakur" ban is "homosexual bondage."

 

[tulc]

If you know Jesus Christ and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, the Deliverer of Truth, how is it not possible to know absolute truth?

As OllieFranz has pointed out, by that logic why do you still sin? You know you shouldn't, you know what sin is, you have Jesus dwelling in you, so shouldn't you be free from sin?
tulc(who actually knows an absolute truth: Jesus loves me, right now!)

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear tulc,

As OllieFranz has pointed out, by that logic why do you still sin? You know you shouldn't, you know what sin is, you have Jesus dwelling in you, so shouldn't you be free from sin?

Ah but the quote addressed the knowledge of sin, you have asked about sinful actions. The answer to your question in general is we are now free not to sin, repentance avails us of forgiveness through Jesus blood, we have available the Holy Spirit which helps us flee from sexual immorality.
One of the problems with discussing same-sex sex, as it would be with any other sin, is we aren’t focussed on Jesus and a life lead by the Spirit, but focussed on fleshly struggles. The more we focus on sinful temptation the more we are tempted, What motivates us, Jesus or desires of the flesh?

 

[Ohioprof]

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:31-32

Are people held in bondage to homosexual fornication and fornication PERIOD as the result of not knowing Truth?

Many in this forum seem to be under the impression that no one can know the truth, and thus use that as an excuse to not adhere to what God's Word says about homosexual fornication.

If you know Jesus Christ and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, the Deliverer of Truth, how is it not possible to know absolute truth?

The belief that one knows the "absolute truth" holds people in bondage, I think. Believing that one has the "truth" and that everyone else is wrong is nothing but rigid refusal to learn anything or to consider different ways of thinking and different viewpoints.

People who claim to know the "absolute truth" are more likel to stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to hear what gay people are telling them about our lives, about who we are. And they then miss the message of Jesus, which was not to judge others, but to love our neighbor.

Believing that one knows the "absolute truth" is probably the most dangerous notion a person can hold, because it produces intolerance of other viewpoints and the refusal to listen, learn, and grow through dialogue. I think we all need to acknowledge that we do NOT know the absolute truth, that all of our beliefs are just beliefs, that we seek to know God, but we do not, as humans, know everything, we do not know the whole of truth. I think we need to practice humility when it comes to our beliefs, to acknowledge that we are not omniscient, and we do not know or possess the absolute truth. None of us possesses the absolute truth.