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Does "philosophy" obscure the basics?

StarTemple

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Imo it seems some philosophies get so involved the original subject matter and basics seems to get lost in some cases.

1. Do you feel sometimes "philosophy" forms a distraction that loses touch with the basics?

2. At what point do "theology" and "philosophy" converge? (Do they converge in "metaphysical" "reality", or is philosophy merely playing theology?):thumbsup:

3. Is Christ a "philosopher"?
 

lesliedellow

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Imo it seems some philosophies get so involved the original subject matter and basics seems to get lost in some cases.

1. Do you feel sometimes "philosophy" forms a distraction that loses touch with the basics?

2. At what point do "theology" and "philosophy" converge? (Do they converge in "metaphysical" "reality", or is philosophy merely playing theology?):thumbsup:

3. Is Christ a "philosopher"?

It is the job of philosophy to examine the "basics," and to look at what is being presupposed by the practitioners in some particular area of study. The rationale for doing that is that physicists or theologians (for example) might be too busy doing physics or theology to examine their own presuppositions. The less reflective amongst them might not even realise they have any.

No, Christ was not a philosopher. If you set aside the small matter of him being God Incarnate, the closest parallel to him would be the Hebrew prophets.
 
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True Scotsman

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Imo it seems some philosophies get so involved the original subject matter and basics seems to get lost in some cases.

1. Do you feel sometimes "philosophy" forms a distraction that loses touch with the basics?

2. At what point do "theology" and "philosophy" converge? (Do they converge in "metaphysical" "reality", or is philosophy merely playing theology?):thumbsup:

3. Is Christ a "philosopher"?
Only bad philosophy and no theology and philosophy don't converge. Philosophy is the study of the fundamentals of existence as a whole and theology is the study of the imaginary and the arbitrary.
 
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Paradoxum

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Imo it seems some philosophies get so involved the original subject matter and basics seems to get lost in some cases.

Do you only care about simple answers? What if things aren't as simple as they seem? It seems arbitrary and anti-truth to imply that answers must be simple.

1. Do you feel sometimes "philosophy" forms a distraction that loses touch with the basics?

That's too general. Not all philosophy is the same. Some philosophy is bad, some is good.

2. At what point do "theology" and "philosophy" converge? (Do they converge in "metaphysical" "reality", or is philosophy merely playing theology?):thumbsup:

Well they talk about the same subject when they talk about the same subject. I don't know what you mean.

3. Is Christ a "philosopher"?

From the Bible, it wouldn't seem so. He makes many claims without explaining the reasoning behind them.
 
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StarTemple

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Do you only care about simple answers? What if things aren't as simple as they seem? It seems arbitrary and anti-truth to imply that answers must be simple.

Well not exactly, even the most complex Formula 1 racing car engine runs on the same principle as a gas powered weed eater. The simple truth remains, complexity is useful. But we cannot say a weed eater and a rocket engine have the same base principle like the internal combustion engine, that keeps a weed-eater in the same category as a Formula 1 engine.

My point is imo there is no problem answering things in more advanced reasoning and complex logic, as long as the original goal is maintained, that is refreshing the audience of the basic goal or premise as it gets deeper.

So I did not imply it has to be infantile perpetually, but that complexity often diverges from the original question or answer, and the controversy often clouds other people's perception of the basic theme. Propaganda, for example, is often philosophic, and it is well known how little philosophies have dragged nations into dire circumstances, such as that of Nazi Germany.

At such time it then becomes about the philosophy itself, not the truth, or premise it was based upon. And the philosophy, or propaganda often enriches the unseen hand guiding the media through which it is spread. Things are not always as they appear, the use of philosophy as propaganda is how the house of mirrors is built, certain use of philosophy is the appearance that is not always actually there.

Imo this is how many have and will lose focus on Jesus Christ and what his focus is. The house has been divided by? PHILOSOPHY. So as complex as it gets, my implied advice is do not forget the goal, and the most basic truth that can easily be lost for the details.

Most of that other stuff is merely questions, not statements of my personal opinion.

Some are ambiguous in my personal opinion. For example Christ obviously loved wisdom, the root of "philo"-"sophy" as a word, but to me he is the truth, not a philosopher, yet he is a lover of truth and wisdom, so in a way he is a philosopher in basic meaning.

I actually love philosophy, I just do not believe it is the whole picture of the puzzle, but it does examine many of its pieces. (1Cor1:18-31) Don't get me started, lol.:yawn:
 
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Roonwit

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StarTemple said:
1. Do you feel sometimes "philosophy" forms a distraction that loses touch with the basics?
I would understand philosophy in its literal sense to be the love of wisdom (Gk: phileo = love; sophia = wisdom). I would also argue that, rather than saying that a philosopher is someone who studies philosophy, rather philosophy is that which is done by philosophers (at least, when they are behaving philosophically). That may seem a trite distinction, but I think it is important. It means that philosophy is not some dry, academic discipline that anyone can learn if they can be bothered. Rather it is a way of life that one chooses to adopt and learns to cultivate.

I think what you are getting at in your question here is that sometimes people lose sight of why they are arguing, and just like arguing for the sake of arguing. That isn't wise; and so people who are doing that have ceased to be acting philosophically, and therefore are not doing philosophy.

My concern about saying we should forget philosophy and focus on the 'basics' is that this may be taken to mean that there are some non-negotiable facts that we just know, and questioning them is stupid. I don't think that is a wise position either. The philosopher seeks to understand what the basics are, and then asks whether those are the right basics to have. He explores how other people's thinking operates using different basics. He seeks to compare those different standards and to evaluate them. He also seeks to explore the full implications of those basics, to ensure that he is being consistent in his application of them. If there are contradictions within his own thinking, showing that he is operating with different 'basics' in different contexts, he needs to decide which set of basics are actually basic, and adjust his thinking accordingly.

So, I think philosophy is important at all times. The opposite of philosophy is fundamentalism, which leads to closed minds and conflict. Philosophy is about openness, honesty, humility, learning, and seeking harmony.

2. At what point do "theology" and "philosophy" converge? (Do they converge in "metaphysical" "reality", or is philosophy merely playing theology?):thumbsup:
It depends whether God exists or not. If God exists, then everything we seek to understand is ultimately an expression of God's nature, and so philosophy is a subset of theology. If God exists, the wise person will order their life with reference to God, and so their philosophy is inherently theological.

If God does not exist, then theology becomes the study of the people who believe in God, and an exploration of why they believe and how their belief affects their lives. Therefore theology becomes a subset of philosophy.

Consequently, I would not make a sharp distinction between philosophy and theology.

3. Is Christ a "philosopher"?
Yes, he is the epitome of wisdom, and therefore the ultimate philosopher.

Roonwit
 
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StarTemple

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I would also argue that, rather than saying that a philosopher is someone who studies philosophy, rather philosophy is that which is done by philosophers (at least, when they are behaving philosophically). That may seem a trite distinction, but I think it is important.

Yes that is a good distinction, believe it or not it will forever change the way I view the general subject of the "philosopher". Like the difference in studying math books and being Issac Newton, lol.

Thanks:doh:

Good insights, thanks, I will reread this because I have to, can't just get it all on first pass, thanks.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Imo it seems some philosophies get so involved the original subject matter and basics seems to get lost in some cases.

1. Do you feel sometimes "philosophy" forms a distraction that loses touch with the basics?

What are the basics?

Truth has a tenancy to resist simplicity.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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StarTemple
Imo it seems some philosophies get so involved the original subject matter and basics seems to get lost in some cases.

1. Do you feel sometimes "philosophy" forms a distraction that loses touch with the basics?
It could be a distraction, but then we'd have to assume that "the basics" are really can be determined apart from philosophical consideration, and I'm not so sure that they can be.

2. At what point do "theology" and "philosophy" converge? (Do they converge in "metaphysical" "reality", or is philosophy merely playing theology?):thumbsup:
I don't think that "convergence" is the term to apply when comparing and contrasting these two fields.

3. Is Christ a "philosopher"?
No, not really; he was the Prophet to come, and the Son of God, two titles that hardly ensconce the status of a mere philosopher...
 
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Archie the Preacher

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According to the Oxford Dictionary, philosophy is the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.

From that, one would think philosophy ought to make the basics clearer.

However, many people who think they are 'philosophers' lack any knowledge of 'logic', let alone 'formal logic'. Most ordinary people mistake 'well, I like it' for 'logical'. The other trap in philosophy is many people start from a conclusion and work backward rather than beginning with facts and working toward a conclusion. Somewhere in those conditions appear the "I'm smarter than you" concept and the "If you can't blind them with brilliance, baffle them..." operating system.

One of the other hindrances to meaningful philosophy is the disparate assumptions used as foundational between different groups. Most obvious is the radically different assumptions between theists and atheists. No matter on which side one begins, the finishing point is somewhere different.

Where do 'philosophy' and 'theology' converge? Theology is a subdivision of philosophy. Theology is a specific section of "knowledge, reality, and existence". I find it notable that this particular subdivision is far more important than all the other subdivisions combined.

Was Jesus a philosopher? Not in the normal sense of people like Plato, Aristotle, and so forth. All the 'philosophers' started with what they thought they knew and assumptions relevant to their own society and worked toward understanding - everything.

Jesus began with omniscience and explained to people how to be united to God. Massive difference. Which is not to say that Jesus never sounded like a philosopher. Jesus told parables, gave moral instruction and guidelines for living in the real world. But Jesus' though process was totally reversed from limited human philosophers.
 
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StarTemple

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According to the Oxford Dictionary, philosophy is the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.

From that, one would think philosophy ought to make the basics clearer.

However, many people who think they are 'philosophers' lack any knowledge of 'logic', let alone 'formal logic'. Most ordinary people mistake 'well, I like it' for 'logical'. The other trap in philosophy is many people start from a conclusion and work backward rather than beginning with facts and working toward a conclusion. Somewhere in those conditions appear the "I'm smarter than you" concept and the "If you can't blind them with brilliance, baffle them..." operating system.

One of the other hindrances to meaningful philosophy is the disparate assumptions used as foundational between different groups. Most obvious is the radically different assumptions between theists and atheists. No matter on which side one begins, the finishing point is somewhere different.

Where do 'philosophy' and 'theology' converge? Theology is a subdivision of philosophy. Theology is a specific section of "knowledge, reality, and existence". I find it notable that this particular subdivision is far more important than all the other subdivisions combined.

Was Jesus a philosopher? Not in the normal sense of people like Plato, Aristotle, and so forth. All the 'philosophers' started with what they thought they knew and assumptions relevant to their own society and worked toward understanding - everything.

Jesus began with omniscience and explained to people how to be united to God. Massive difference. Which is not to say that Jesus never sounded like a philosopher. Jesus told parables, gave moral instruction and guidelines for living in the real world. But Jesus' though process was totally reversed from limited human philosophers.

Yes good points. That deduction versus induction thing is good to keep in mind. I see Christ as not having to explain every detail of everything he could have, because he has the absolute understanding of truth, so he worked where man needs it, in getting reconciled with God and the hope and certainty of a great reality to come when the Adamic course has run, or as with many, we prematurely cease human existence. But I believe Christ's truth will last forever and in time that understanding will come forth of the other details.

Once "faith" becomes "organizational" and "corporate" as administered supposedly through non-profit based "religions", the hidden corporate structure of control can sometimes subvert the "philosophy" to maximize profit, control and thus continue existence and growth. (This maybe a model far older than the modern religious complex, imo.) Its how industry has formed political connections to also increase profits by legal maximization. Its in how commercial based television avoids subject matter that makes people "change the channel", hence not buying more Doritos or tampons, or whatever.

I find it interesting the topical philosophical jargon and formed psychological mythologies, though made up of various "truths", often cloud the far more present and powerful profit motive, helping conceal it, though by it all things in civilization and its civil legal system exist. Understanding profit motive provides far more answers than the philosophies that help conceal it, for some reason. It really is, at the core, money and wealth management related, and the richest complex has a design to maximize its continuation and to grow its power, and that internationally, not just nationally.

(Not saying this is good or bad, just that it is naturally there in the dynamic competitive system, and the world of creative ideas, taken to myths accepted as truths, mixed with them, aids the process. Eventually though, potential or real force determines "truth". Yet addressing the core would have been more useful than spinning more philosophies and rationalizations, imo.)

I mean, for example, belief in fiat currency is all that really gives it "value", it has no value in intrinsic make up. And other illusions such as this, have become very powerful in modern society. But their basis is somewhat a form of spiritual alchemy, "wealth" from thin air, in reality of application and what it actually is. Other national government "philosophies", imo, aided concealing the core of the real wealth engine, that it is little more than a big Monopoly game, complete with the paper money, lol. (Like the recent ECB asset acquisition program, and its Fed QE counterpart, its buy time!)

The reason I said all this, the summary as my opinion, is in time national sovereignty will not be protected, it will be eliminated, imo, and thus it is ironic philosophies stating otherwise, conceal the bigger international dynamic where that must become the case in an international sovereign sense. It is progressive, it is not static, debt growth equates to sovereign loss, plain and simple, from a person to a nation, the principle is the same. The US alone cannot drag itself out of the debt hole it is in now, it will in time mathematically require an international "wealth sovereign" to do that. (and there is one, btw, that has grown in the corporate principle covered above) It is already written in US and EU debt and unfunded liability magnitudes, not if, but when, just a matter of time. In the meantime people haggled "Democrat" this and "Republican" that, distraction, while their nation floated into a world government (by mostly its financial arm), and their sovereignty is to be subjugated. Very ironic, yet many do not see this developing, also very interesting.

And that is where your statement rings true, it is profitable to engineer "philosophies" to aid the process, to influence minds to protect this and that corporate complex (or work against others), to miss other more important developments, which naturally are in "competition", at "market" war with each other, and in a very real international scale development of power growth, it has been successful thus far:

"The other trap in philosophy is many people start from a conclusion and work backward rather than beginning with facts and working toward a conclusion."


And imo those "many people" are often cultured by certain "groups" with a greater agenda. Even the Apple versus Microsoft war has such theologians, lol.

Thus modern societal development internationally has many examples of philosophies designed to actually support a preconceived conclusion as the basis of their development, to provide the questions for which they are the "answer", to explain the "problem" for which they are the "solution". I will remember that basic principle you stated as a great reminder, that should be kept in mind, when examining various "philosophies" that end up aligned in some form of political ulterior development, rather than accept their face value and superficial claims, often the intended "smokescreen" that keeps people off the real developments for decades at times. In fact, imo, many of them, the dominant ones, even the polemic and religious ones, are now thus aligned, supporting myths and truths mixed, for supporting the nation-state framework where the puppet strings all ascend to in a cascading house of global cards. LOL

Interesting to see it peaking, none the less. It is all constructed of basically experimental organized ideas, now maturing. All I want to do is make people think a little more deeply about things in their world, and to recall why Christ will in time be the truly only solution. He already is the only solution, the illusion is merely strong for now.

Thanks,

Regards
 
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DogmaHunter

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Imo it seems some philosophies get so involved the original subject matter and basics seems to get lost in some cases.

1. Do you feel sometimes "philosophy" forms a distraction that loses touch with the basics?

2. At what point do "theology" and "philosophy" converge? (Do they converge in "metaphysical" "reality", or is philosophy merely playing theology?):thumbsup:

3. Is Christ a "philosopher"?



There was a time, quite some time ago, where "philospher" and "scientist" were basically the same thing.

All that has changed now, specifically with the advances in physics and the realisation that we puny humans cannot arrive to truth by merely "thinking" about a problem like philosphers do.

As Krauss once famously said: you can lock the top 100 philosophers of ALL TIME in a room and have them discuss reality for millenia. But not a single one of them will come up with things like relativity theory, quantum mechanics, the higgs boson, etc. Because "logic" and argumentation by themselves can't lead to such conclusions. You need empirical science and expertise in an empirical scientific field to come up with those things.

And that's why people like Krauss are of the opinion that "philosophy is dead" when it comes to scientific progress.

It's ironic really...
The further you go back in time, the harder it becomes to differentiate science from philosophy. While today, the trend seems the go the other way... it becomes increasingly harder to differentiate philosophy from theology.

It seems to me that today, if you have someone who's only claim to fame or who's only credential is being a "philosopher", chances are rather big that the dude will also be a theologian or theistic apologist or something.

Philosophy still has its place, off course. But actual science doesn't seem to be one of them.
 
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Roonwit

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Science is a form of philosophy. It used to be called 'natural philosophy' until the label 'science' became popular in the late 19th century. Interestingly, the word 'science' (meaning 'knowledge') was generally applied in the Middle Ages to the disciplines we now tend to call philosophy and theology.

Philosophers who neglect empirical science are, I would agree, going astray. Natural philosophy is an essential tool for understanding the world. But scientists who neglect other branches of philosophy are also going astray. It is necessary for scientists to understand what they are doing, and what are the philosophical processes underpinning their claims to truth.

Having started out as a scientist but then begun to explore the philosophy of science and now explore far and wide on philosophical matters (though I retain a keen interest in science, particularly physics), I feel as well placed as anybody to have some understanding of the relationship between science and the rest of philosophy.

Roonwit
 
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StarTemple

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There was a time, quite some time ago, where "philospher" and "scientist" were basically the same thing.

All that has changed now, specifically with the advances in physics and the realisation that we puny humans cannot arrive to truth by merely "thinking" about a problem like philosphers do.

As Krauss once famously said: you can lock the top 100 philosophers of ALL TIME in a room and have them discuss reality for millenia. But not a single one of them will come up with things like relativity theory, quantum mechanics, the higgs boson, etc. Because "logic" and argumentation by themselves can't lead to such conclusions. You need empirical science and expertise in an empirical scientific field to come up with those things.

And that's why people like Krauss are of the opinion that "philosophy is dead" when it comes to scientific progress.

It's ironic really...
The further you go back in time, the harder it becomes to differentiate science from philosophy. While today, the trend seems the go the other way... it becomes increasingly harder to differentiate philosophy from theology.

It seems to me that today, if you have someone who's only claim to fame or who's only credential is being a "philosopher", chances are rather big that the dude will also be a theologian or theistic apologist or something.

Philosophy still has its place, off course. But actual science doesn't seem to be one of them.

Yes, another great insight, thanks. It is true what you are getting at, I'm going to think about that basic morphology more and how scientific understanding of real realities often undermines one philosophic premise after another.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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There was a time, quite some time ago, where "philospher" and "scientist" were basically the same thing.

All that has changed now, specifically with the advances in physics and the realisation that we puny humans cannot arrive to truth by merely "thinking" about a problem like philosphers do.

As Krauss once famously said: you can lock the top 100 philosophers of ALL TIME in a room and have them discuss reality for millenia. But not a single one of them will come up with things like relativity theory, quantum mechanics, the higgs boson, etc. Because "logic" and argumentation by themselves can't lead to such conclusions. You need empirical science and expertise in an empirical scientific field to come up with those things.

And that's why people like Krauss are of the opinion that "philosophy is dead" when it comes to scientific progress.

It's ironic really...
The further you go back in time, the harder it becomes to differentiate science from philosophy. While today, the trend seems the go the other way... it becomes increasingly harder to differentiate philosophy from theology.

It seems to me that today, if you have someone who's only claim to fame or who's only credential is being a "philosopher", chances are rather big that the dude will also be a theologian or theistic apologist or something.

Philosophy still has its place, off course. But actual science doesn't seem to be one of them.

...well then, I guess we can just throw out "Philosophy of Science" as a field and let all scientists have a heyday in believing that they are truly objective in analyses, terminology, methodology, and ontology, etc., however and whenever... I guess as long as scientists can successfully land a rover on Mars, or map the genome, then they are free to think as they please about any implications, insights, or assumptions they have in mind. (NOT!)
 
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