Does our loving God send people to hell?

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
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DO NOT THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW FOR I HAVE NOT COME TO ABOLISH BUT TO (PLEROO) the LAW

Get back to me when you can CORRECTLY identify what Plerro means in the context of this verse in Matthew. Because got news for you that verse in Matthew is SPECIFICALLY cited to what Plerro means and IT DOES NOT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS
Correctly according to whom? I'm guessing that you're making a claim of holding that truth?

What I've been taught (from various sources ) is "He fully preached" the Mosaic Law. He revealed the intent...the interior...the foundation of the law.....and brought it to completion.

I'm open to reading your ideas about that, and I believe you could even share that without adding ad hominem remarks (and also without presumptions about what I know/don't know).
 
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Shempster

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People always tell me that WE send ourselves to hell, but to me that makes no sense.
You could say about a thief who gets caught that he sends himself to jail, but that's not even true. Does he willingly go to jail or does someone need to forcibly put him there? Obviously, he must be forced because nobody wants to go to jail.
When a sinner dies, does he choose to go to a place of torture or is he just sent there? It shouldn't matter if he knew that's where he might go. He's not going to willingly go there.
So I guess God DOES send people there after all.
 
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mkgal1

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Right, Shempster. The other thing with that whole framework of hell is the question of, "who sets the standards for who is 'in' and who is 'out' "? It's God that created all, so is that really accurate to say the entire onus is on humanity for making that "choice"?

To me....that entire framework needs to be torn down and then a person should re-read the Bible trying to get that idea out of their mind (and I'd bet they'd see something different).
 
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BukiRob

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Correctly according to whom? I'm guessing that you're making a claim of holding that truth?

What I've been taught (from various sources ) is "He fully preached" the Mosaic Law. He revealed the intent...the interior...the foundation of the law.....and brought it to completion.

I'm open to reading your ideas about that, and I believe you could even share that without adding ad hominem remarks (and also without presumptions about what I know/don't know).

Okay... on the OFF chance that you are being honestly sincere I will explain why you are wrong.

Let's look at the scripture in reference. I am going to paste the 3 verses associated with Matt 5:17 so that we can look at it in the totality of what he is saying.
17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The problem is the MISUNDERSTANDING and poor choice of the use of the word FULFILL.

Often people rush to insert the meaning of COMPLETE or ABOLISH or to SET ASIDE to mean Fulfill This can not be the case for 2 reasons. The first is by looking at EVERYTHING Yeshua is saying. If we insert the word you use, bring to completion (meaning they are no longer relevant or to be used/observed) you make Messiah utter nonsense.

So let's do that... 17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to (fulfill them) bring them to completion.. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Now, #1 Heaven and Earth has not passed away so right off the bat you have a problem. #2 In verse 19 Messiah PLAINLY states that whoever makes the mistake of ignoring them has problems with their standing in the kingdom of heaven.

But the real reason your definition absolutely does not work is because of what strong's has to show us.

The greek in verse 17 for the poor translation of Fulfill is Pleroo.

Strong's Greek: 4137. πληρόω (pléroó) -- to make full, to complete

universally and absolutely, to fulfill, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfillment": Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang. as above with, p. 146f

As you can see, this specific verse is identified with the above meaning and when we insert any of these meanings now, Yeshua's words flow congruently making perfect sense with what verses 18 and 19 states.

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to "cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfillment." 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Any other choice you use to define fulfill other than the above causes significant conflict with what Messiah says in verse 19.
 
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mkgal1

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What about your sins and mine, entering the presence of a holy God?
Right. Revelation says there will be no more sorrow, no more death (so that has to mean, IMO, that ALL sin has to be completely eradicated...not just forgiven).


This why the Lord Jesus came and died for sin at the Cross.
I think we have different ideas about that. I believe He came to demonstrate His love for us and to undo the practice of scapegoating.
 
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mkgal1

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Okay... on the OFF chance that you are being honestly sincere I will explain why you are wrong.
You know what? Our discussion would probably be more enjoyable (unless you get some sick pleasure out of arguing with others) if you refrained from using phrases like that. What was so complicated about Jesus' instruction to "love others as yourself ?
 
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faroukfarouk

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Right. Revelation says there will be no more sorrow, no more death (so that has to mean, IMO, that ALL sin has to be completely eradicated...not just forgiven).



I think we have different ideas about that. I believe He came to demonstrate His love for us and to undo the practice of scapegoating.
Your statements are not Biblical. I don't propose to get into an argument.
 
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mkgal1

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If we insert the word you use, bring to completion (meaning they are no longer relevant or to be used/observed) you make Messiah utter nonsense.
I said nothing about "no longer relevant".
 
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mkgal1

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Your statements are not Biblical. I don't propose to get into an argument.
We can certainly disagree...discuss...and not argue .

I'm basing my beliefs on the Bible. Most of that quote was Scripture (so I'm unsure how Scripture isn't biblical?).
 
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faroukfarouk

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We can certainly disagree...discuss...and not argue .

I'm basing my beliefs on the Bible.
"...when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high..." (Hebrews 1.4).

" But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59.2)

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." (John 8.24)

"...how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Hebrews 9.14)

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." (Luke 16.23)
 
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mkgal1

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.when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high..." (Hebrews 1.4).
So you know people (may even be someone) that no longer sins ? Never?

Originally you'd asked;

"What about your sins and mine, entering the presence of a holy God?"

....how would YOU answer that?Because I think I'm misunderstanding your point (and you may be missing mine as well).
 
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mkgal1

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Heaven and Earth has not passed away so right off the bat you have a problem.
This may need it's own thread....but I'll share this article that addresses that:

------>To the Jewish mind, God himself dwelt in the Temple in the Holy of Holies, on the Mercy Seat immediately above the Ark of the Covenant. Because “heaven” to a Jew is where God lives, they saw heaven and earth merged in the Holy of Holies, as God dwelt there as well as in heaven — that is, the two realms intersected at the Temple, behind the curtain, above the Ark of the Covenant at the Mercy Seat.~N. T. Wright’s The Day the Revolution Began, Part 5 (Inheriting the Earth; the New Heavens and New Earth) | One In Jesus

------>Defining Heaven and Earth

Sadly many Bible students are unfamiliar with the apocalyptic, and figurative language of the Bible. So many people like to say "The Bible says what it means and means what it says". They seem to be saying there is no such thing as figurative or spiritual language. This is sad because a LOT of the Bible is symbolic language. The term heaven and earth is a good example. [We are not saying the term heaven and earth never refers to material creation; we ARE saying this term is very often used figuratively].

Remember, Jesus was a Jew. As such he was raised hearing the Old Testament prophets taught in the synagogues. These prophets utilized spiritual language. As the prophet of and to Israel, Matthew 15, Jesus was not only familiar with the language of the prophets, he used the same language. How did the prophets use the term heaven and earth?

The prophet Isaiah predicted the passing of heaven and earth in chapter 24. He said the earth would be utterly broken down, clean dissolved, and completely removed, vs. 19. Now this sounds like the destruction of material creation but closer examination reveals it to be speaking of the destruction of Israel's Covenant World under the imagery of "heaven and earth". Note verse 5 gives the reason for the destruction--"they have broken the everlasting covenant". What covenant was that? It was the Mosaic Covenant! God was going to destroy "heaven and earth" because Israel had broken her covenant with Jehovah! Are we to believe that one day the universe will be destroyed because Israel broke her covenant?

A dilemma is created for the literal interpretation of the text when we come to verse 22. In these verses God is depicted as dwelling gloriously in Mount Zion, that is, in Jerusalem, after the destruction of heaven and earth. Reader, if the earth has been destroyed how could literal Mount Zion still exist? We believe the best explanation is to see Isaiah predicting the destruction of Israel's COVENANT heaven and earth because she had violated the Mosaic Covenant with Jehovah. As a result God's righteousness would remain in a New Zion--in a new COVENANT heaven and earth.

Another example of "heaven and earth" being referent to the Covenant World of Israel and not literal creation is Isaiah 51:16.

"I have put my word in your mouth and have covered

you with the shadow of my hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, 'You are my people'". [NASV]

[Unfortunately, the New International Version incorrectly translates this verse. Check several translations.]

What is the point? Notice that God is speaking to Israel. He says he gave them his law, the Mosaic Covenant, the same law Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 5:17-18, to establish heaven and lay the foundation of the earth! Clearly Jehovah is not saying he gave the Mosaic Covenant to Israel to create literal heaven and earth! Material creation existed long before Israel was ever given the Mosaic Covenant.

The meaning of the verse is that Jehovah gave his covenant with Israel to CREATE THEIR WORLD--A COVENANT WORLD WITH JEHOVAH!

God created Israel's "heaven and earth" by giving them his Covenant. Now if he destroyed THAT Old Covenant heaven and earth and gave a NEW COVENANT, would he not thereby be creating a NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH? This is precisely the thought in the NEW COVENANT SCRIPTURES!

Old Israel's covenant was about to pass away, II Corinthians 3:10ff; Hebrews 8:13; 12:25ff. The New Covenant of Christ was being given, Ephesians 3:3ff; Hebrews 2:1ff. Since the giving of Covenant created "heaven and earth" the New Heaven and Earth of Christ would not be completed until the New Covenant was completely revealed. It therefore follows that if the New Heavens and Earth of Christ has not arrived then CHRIST'S NEW COVENANT HAS NOT YET BEEN FULLY REVEALED! If Christ's New Covenant has been fully revealed then the NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH HAS FULLY COME! Consider this carefully in light of II Peter 3 and Revelation 21-22, passages written as the process of revealing the NEW COVENANT was yet incomplete.

In Isaiah 51:5-6 God predicted the "heaven and earth" would vanish. This is the same "heaven and earth" he had established at Sinai. This is not a prediction of the passing of literal heaven and earth--it is a prediction of the passing of the Old World of Israel so that the New Covenant World of Messiah would be established. We believe this heaven and earth that Isaiah said would perish is the same heaven and earth Jesus said must pass before the Old Law would pass.~Don Preston
 
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