Does or Doesn't the Old Testament "count"?

[Parogar]

I'm not a member of any religion, but I'm a huge admirer of Jesus--really big fan. To the point where I keep searching high and low for anyone else who sees in him what I do, and all I end up finding are these people called "Christians" who seem to take whatever he says then do the opposite.

I'm making this thread not to preach, but to understand. I would like clarification once and for all on whether or not we are still under the laws of the OT or we aren't under those laws.

Christians speak out against gay marriage. Then they go out to work wearing two different types of fabric. And many of them don't even stone their children to death when they misbehave, nor do they force raped women to marry their rapists.

My point? I don't have one. I'm asking a question.

Which rules/laws count and which rules/laws don't?

Also, another question: why is it that ONLY the rules/laws that the MAJORITY of Christians can personally find agreeable are the ones that mainstream Christianity claims are the ones that "we still have to follow." Are you saying it's just a coincidence? Like, "Hey, whew! I, a man from Kentucky, really lucked out, because all the things in the old testament that still count I'm okay with! All the things it says I'm not supposed to do I don't mind not doing, but the things it says I should do I do love doing! I sure am glad that I'm white, straight, and wealthy."

Moving along: Jesus Christ.

I love him. I do. I have no bad words to speak about Jesus nor would I dare utter a single one of them. In all my life I have never read about a more loving, wonderful person.

How come Christians don't believe in anything he says? Like, none of them do. I haven't even met one yet.

Every single Christian I met would rather judge other people and throw stones than do a single thing Jesus asked them to do. And their justifications for their behavior always comes from the Old Testament.

Does the New Testament not count?

Example: Jesus said that the way to salvation is through him and him alone.

He specifically wrote that he did NOT!! come here to condemn the world but to save it.

So why is it that all Christians seem to do is condemn everyone? To throw stones.

The same people who say they're against "immoral gay marriage" are the same people who are against raising the minimum wage and against helping the poor.

"Oh, but the bible says (insert old testament passage)"

Yeah, I believe you. I know that's what the bible says.

What does JESUS say?

He says to give everything you have away to the poor.

Oh, but that doesn't count, right? It's not something you'd feel comfortable doing. So let's instead just quietly shuffle that one under the rug and focus on hating gays and lesbians for having the audacity to have been born a certain way.

Christians, on a near overwhelming level, support drone strikes, wars, and any manner of horrible things.

But the wonderful Jesus, to whom I admire and so greatly respect, not only said that we should turn the other cheek, but that whoever lives by the sword dies by it!


Jesus Christ would have been the biggest liberal this world had ever seen.

But if Christians saw him today, they would call him an "Obama-loving socialist."

Jesus LOVED the poor. He LOVED the sinners. The only thing Jesus Christ would truly dislike, from what I'm seeing, are Christians.

So, tell me: does the old testament count more or less than what Jesus says count?

And anyone thinking of responding with the words: "Both count because there is no contradiction"

^^ You're not behaving honestly or with integrity. Anyone with objectivity can see that there are some seriously differing morals between the two.

 

[seashale76]

Which rules/laws count and which rules/laws don't? Does the New Testament not count?

Yes, the NT does count. Christians are under no obligation to follow the 613 laws of the OT as Christ didn't abolish the law, he fulfilled it (Romans 10:4, Matthew 5:17). In fact, the book of Acts details the first Ecumenical Council (The Council of Jerusalem), wherein it was decided that having gentile converts follow all of the OT law wasn't to be the done thing. Honestly, one must question whether anyone who says otherwise has read and comprehended the New Testament at all.

What was determined that we should follow:
Acts 15:28-29

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Just because Christians don't follow all of said laws in the OT doesn't mean we don't find the OT to be scripture. In Christianity, the Old Testament is to be understood in a New Testament way, in the light of the Church. The Old Testament contains the preparation for the coming of Christ, promises, prophecies, as well as types and antitypes of Christ. The events of the OT being the shadow and the events of the NT being the truth and fulfillment. A big example of this is Isaac being offered as a sacrifice (that was rejected) points directly to Christ's death on the Cross.

You specifically mentioned homosexuality. Here it is in the NT, listed with other things:
I Corinthians 6:9-10

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Too many Christians and non-Christians don't know the Christian scriptures and how the Church interprets the scriptures (which should be taken into consideration as the Church existed before the NT did). People tend to cherry pick and ignore the totality of the scriptures.

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Galatians 5:1-26

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,[a] and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.

11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

What many people don't get is that the foundation for truth in Christianity is the Church (which is guided by the Holy Spirit). Our scriptures and how we are to view them came out of that Holy Tradition.

If you'd like to see an Orthodox view of the scriptures, here is a good podcast series by Dr. Jeannie Constantinou, who teaches Biblical Studies and Early Christianity at the University of San Diego. She delves into the ideas of inspiration and innerency, oral tradition, bible manuscripts, the canon, Christian and Gnostic apocryphal books, translations and versions, Patristic interpretation, the school of Alexandria, the Cappodocian fathers, the school of Antioch, and the Latin Fathers. There are around 25 podcasts in her Introduction to the Bible series, but you can go on where she approaches each book of the bible in additional podcasts. I'm fairly certain you're likely unfamiliar with Orthodox Christian interpretation and views of the scriptures. So, you should check it out.

Begin with lesson 2 as lesson 1 is simply an overview of what will be covered.
http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/searchthescriptures/introduction_to_the_bible_lesson_2_inspiration_and_inerrancy

 

[dcalling]

I would say the OT count the same as NT, the OT lay out the law, and in NT Jesus give the spirit of the law (to love your neighbor as yourself, which is impossible for anyone, so we can only be saved by God's grace).

And you won't find any prefect Christian either, we all try but we all fail.

 

[Harry3142]

The 613 laws of Torah were intended to be a foundation on which the Hebrews could build a strong, cohesive society. If they followed those laws they would prosper, having ever-increasing yields of crops, as well as ever-larger herds of cattle and flocks of sheep. They would have progeny (a sign of wealth in that era), and would be safe from diseases which they had known during their sojourn in Egypt. You can read this promise in Deuteronomy 7:12-15. But death was a wall which no one passed, rather than its being a door to another life (Genesis 3:19).

A source of confusion has been references to 'the law' in the New Testament. It isn't the same set of laws. Whereas the Old Testament had 613 societal laws, by the time of Jesus' sojourn among us there were literally 10's of 1,000's of laws. What had taken place was the Pharisees' taking the original laws and then adding countless additional laws to them via subsets in order to convert them from being societal to being salvific. The Sabbath commandment alone had over 1,000 of these laws attached to it, and in order to obey that one commandment in a way that ensured salvation the people had to obey all 1,000+ laws. The other commandments had similar subsets, so it was legalism gone berserk.

Jesus himself taught that there were certain actions, and even certain motivations, which his followers were not to accept:

He went on, "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' " (The Gospel of St. Mark 7:20-23,NIV)

The actions which are forbidden to Christians are also listed by St. Paul:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thievers nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (I Corinthians 6:9-10,NIV)

If we want to live Christian lives, then we are to accept Christian directives as found in the New Testament. Those actions and motivations which we find forbidden to us, we accept as forbidden to any of us who choose to live in accordance with Christian morality. We are not to judge nonbelievers, but we are also not to permit the desires of nonelievers which run contrary to what Scripture itself permits to influence our actions.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I'm not a member of any religion, but I'm a huge admirer of Jesus--really big fan. To the point where I keep searching high and low for anyone else who sees in him what I do, and all I end up finding are these people called "Christians" who seem to take whatever he says then do the opposite.

I'm making this thread not to preach, but to understand. I would like clarification once and for all on whether or not we are still under the laws of the OT or we aren't under those laws.

We are not.

Christians speak out against gay marriage. Then they go out to work wearing two different types of fabric. And many of them don't even stone their children to death when they misbehave, nor do they force raped women to marry their rapists.

I am not one who makes a big deal about gay marriage, but for the sake of clarity, I'll note that the Xians who speak against it do so because they see the OT prohibitions against homosexuality reinforced in the NT.

My point? I don't have one. I'm asking a question.

Which rules/laws count and which rules/laws don't?

Also, another question: why is it that ONLY the rules/laws that the MAJORITY of Christians can personally find agreeable are the ones that mainstream Christianity claims are the ones that "we still have to follow." Are you saying it's just a coincidence? Like, "Hey, whew! I, a man from Kentucky, really lucked out, because all the things in the old testament that still count I'm okay with! All the things it says I'm not supposed to do I don't mind not doing, but the things it says I should do I do love doing! I sure am glad that I'm white, straight, and wealthy."

Moving along: Jesus Christ.

I love him. I do. I have no bad words to speak about Jesus nor would I dare utter a single one of them. In all my life I have never read about a more loving, wonderful person.

What about the places where He did violent things like beating people with whips?

What about the fact that He identified Himself as "I AM," the same Being that at times commanded genocide in the OT?

How come Christians don't believe in anything he says? Like, none of them do. I haven't even met one yet.

Every single Christian I met would rather judge other people and throw stones than do a single thing Jesus asked them to do. And their justifications for their behavior always comes from the Old Testament.

Does the New Testament not count?

Sure it does. And it's often *because* of things in the NT that we don't always accept the "liberal" view of the things Jesus did and taught.

Example: Jesus said that the way to salvation is through him and him alone.

He specifically wrote that he did NOT!! come here to condemn the world but to save it.

Right. But He *did* tell His followers to preach "repentance." And other parts of the NT exhort believers to "admonish" one another. I do agree with the idea that much of modern Xianity has come to be about "rules," especially those that affect "the other guy."

So why is it that all Christians seem to do is condemn everyone? To throw stones.

The same people who say they're against "immoral gay marriage" are the same people who are against raising the minimum wage and against helping the poor.

Being "against raising the minimum wage" is not the same as "against helping the poor."

"Oh, but the bible says (insert old testament passage)"

Yeah, I believe you. I know that's what the bible says.

What does JESUS say?

He says to give everything you have away to the poor.

No, He does not. He said that to one guy who had a problem with being covetous, in order to bring to light his sin and need of salvation, in spite of the fact that he considered himself a good follower of the Law.

If that was really his teaching, why did He not command Peter to give his house away? If it was really His teaching, why did He and His team have a money bag from which Judas often stole?

Oh, but that doesn't count, right? It's not something you'd feel comfortable doing. So let's instead just quietly shuffle that one under the rug and focus on hating gays and lesbians for having the audacity to have been born a certain way.

I enjoy giving. Giving away EVERYTHING would be both foolish and NOT Biblical. It is not what Jesus taught when one considers the whole of His life and teaching, and it is not what the whole of Scripture teaches.

Christians, on a near overwhelming level, support drone strikes, wars, and any manner of horrible things.

Yes, but in general, we don't advocate for things such as immolation as a form of punishment (Lev. 20:14), or capital punishment for adultery, or intentional genocide of enemies; I AM, with Whom Jesus self-identified, commanded such in the OT.

But the wonderful Jesus, to whom I admire and so greatly respect, not only said that we should turn the other cheek, but that whoever lives by the sword dies by it!

And yet He also identified Himself as the I AM who in the OT commanded what many would consider atrocities, and said that anyone who did not believe Him to be that very I AM would die in their sins.

Jesus Christ would have been the biggest liberal this world had ever seen.

But if Christians saw him today, they would call him an "Obama-loving socialist."

No, because He would not have used the power of the law and government to FORCE people to be "generous."

Jesus LOVED the poor. He LOVED the sinners. The only thing Jesus Christ would truly dislike, from what I'm seeing, are Christians.

Sorry, I think you're imposing your own views onto Jesus.

So, tell me: does the old testament count more or less than what Jesus says count?

And anyone thinking of responding with the words: "Both count because there is no contradiction"

^^ You're not behaving honestly or with integrity. Anyone with objectivity can see that there are some seriously differing morals between the two.

They both "count," but they don't have the same purposes and they don't apply to the same people.

 

[tonnerkiller]

OT counts. But don't look for rules in it. It's not the system log of God, it's literature. Read it like you read Shakespeare or James Joyce. It contains truth, like all good literature does.
Same is true for NT. But don't use it to justify the things you do or leave. It's literature, not a cookbook for happiness or whatever else.

 

[hedrick]

The problem with the OP is that the primary purpose of the Bible isn't to define a set of rules, but rather to tell us the story of God working with mankind to restore his image, which was corrupted by the Fall (which, I might note, I don't take as an historical event). So the question of whether the OT rules apply to us or not isn't the main issue in the OT.

Seashale76 correctly cites Act 15, but it's important to realize the rationale for Acts 15. It's not that the "OT doesn't count." Rather, the laws in the OT are part of God's covenant with the Jewish people. The laws didn't apply to non-Jews even in the OT. Almost all Christians today are non-Jews.

So why do we care about the OT? Because they show God at work. And because according to the prophets, God always intended to use the Jewish people as the beginning of his work with all people, including us. The prophets' vision of the end has all people gathering in Jerusalem, with the Jewish people being the light to the Gentiles. Jeremiah envisions a new covenant in which God's teaching is written in our hearts. This is what Jesus said he was doing.

I worry about people like the OP, because I'm concerned that they haven't read Jesus carefully enough. Jesus taught many thing that non-Christians can admire. But his *purpose* wasn't to teach about love and justice in the abstract. Rather, his purpose was to establish God's rule (his "kingdom") on earth. He taught that our love reflects God's, and his ethics were kingdom ethics, ethics not just for individuals but for a community of people who he called together to embody the kingdom of God.

 

[Angelquill]

I'm not a member of any religion, but I'm a huge admirer of Jesus--really big fan. To the point where I keep searching high and low for anyone else who sees in him what I do, and all I end up finding are these people called "Christians" who seem to take whatever he says then do the opposite.

I'm making this thread not to preach, but to understand. I would like clarification once and for all on whether or not we are still under the laws of the OT or we aren't under those laws.

Christians speak out against gay marriage. Then they go out to work wearing two different types of fabric. And many of them don't even stone their children to death when they misbehave, nor do they force raped women to marry their rapists.

My point? I don't have one. I'm asking a question.

Which rules/laws count and which rules/laws don't?

Also, another question: why is it that ONLY the rules/laws that the MAJORITY of Christians can personally find agreeable are the ones that mainstream Christianity claims are the ones that "we still have to follow." Are you saying it's just a coincidence? Like, "Hey, whew! I, a man from Kentucky, really lucked out, because all the things in the old testament that still count I'm okay with! All the things it says I'm not supposed to do I don't mind not doing, but the things it says I should do I do love doing! I sure am glad that I'm white, straight, and wealthy."

Moving along: Jesus Christ.

I love him. I do. I have no bad words to speak about Jesus nor would I dare utter a single one of them. In all my life I have never read about a more loving, wonderful person.

How come Christians don't believe in anything he says? Like, none of them do. I haven't even met one yet.

Every single Christian I met would rather judge other people and throw stones than do a single thing Jesus asked them to do. And their justifications for their behavior always comes from the Old Testament.

Does the New Testament not count?

Example: Jesus said that the way to salvation is through him and him alone.

He specifically wrote that he did NOT!! come here to condemn the world but to save it.

So why is it that all Christians seem to do is condemn everyone? To throw stones.

The same people who say they're against "immoral gay marriage" are the same people who are against raising the minimum wage and against helping the poor.

"Oh, but the bible says (insert old testament passage)"

Yeah, I believe you. I know that's what the bible says.

What does JESUS say?

He says to give everything you have away to the poor.

Oh, but that doesn't count, right? It's not something you'd feel comfortable doing. So let's instead just quietly shuffle that one under the rug and focus on hating gays and lesbians for having the audacity to have been born a certain way.

Christians, on a near overwhelming level, support drone strikes, wars, and any manner of horrible things.

But the wonderful Jesus, to whom I admire and so greatly respect, not only said that we should turn the other cheek, but that whoever lives by the sword dies by it!


Jesus Christ would have been the biggest liberal this world had ever seen.

But if Christians saw him today, they would call him an "Obama-loving socialist."

Jesus LOVED the poor. He LOVED the sinners. The only thing Jesus Christ would truly dislike, from what I'm seeing, are Christians.

So, tell me: does the old testament count more or less than what Jesus says count?

And anyone thinking of responding with the words: "Both count because there is no contradiction"

^^ You're not behaving honestly or with integrity. Anyone with objectivity can see that there are some seriously differing morals between the two.

How foolish, to have come so close to the Lord Jesus Christ, and then to reject Him because of what you percieve to be bad behavior among His followers!! Jesus came to save sinners, not perfect people. And we are all sinners.
Again, did you know that Jesus, Whom you admire so much, also warned us not to judge? We are all subject to the judgement of God...every one of us. And because we are all sinners, we ought to tremble at the thought of that judgement, just as the guilty child trembles before the irate father with the paddle in his hand...

Does the OT count? You betcha it does. Jesus, Who is our Immanuel, or God-With-Us also said, "If you love Me, keep my commandments"....He didn't specify "just the ones you like", did He? Of course, one of the reasons He came was to update and clarify those commandments. "Stoning for adultery? Uh, yeah...that is the penalty, right. Let the one who has no sin throw the first stone."
Now, see all the angry people drop their rocks.... The law was not repealed, the penalty for adultery (and all sin) is still death...but before you throw any stones, you might want to check yourself...

You seem to be quite unhappy with Christians who fight things like gay marriage. Perhaps you ought to talk with a responsible medical authority on the dangers of anal sex!! There are very good reasons why God outlawed it, and those reasons are as valid today as they were in those ancient times. Did you know that the OT also commands the proper disposal of human waste? Those ancient people were to have a spade among their tools, and they were to go outside the community to relieve themselves and then use that spade to bury what came from them. Imagine...God knew about bacteria and disease that long ago, and He knew that poop was not a nice thing or a healthy thing to play with. Now if only He could get that through those thick heads!!
It is not my place to judge anyone, or to tell them how to run their lives. However, I watched a very precious man die horribly of incurable staph infection...not pretty. Therefore, I most strenuously advise against indulging in anal sex. It just doesn't seem worth it...


I also advise you to take a closer look at Jesus Christ. Forget His "fan club". You are not responsible for my bad behavior, nor am I responsible for yours. However, you are responsible for your response, now that you've gotten close enough to Jesus Christ to know Him.

"The wages of sin is death"....why will you choose to die, when "the gift of God is eternal life"??

Think about it...

 

[Angelquill]

Let me get more in-depth here...

I'm not a member of any religion, but I'm a huge admirer of Jesus--really big fan. To the point where I keep searching high and low for anyone else who sees in him what I do, and all I end up finding are these people called "Christians" who seem to take whatever he says then do the opposite.

Jesus isn't going to be a terribly popular fella, I'm afraid. People do not like to be told things like "you are a sinner who needs Me to save you", it hurts their little egos...

I'm making this thread not to preach, but to understand. I would like clarification once and for all on whether or not we are still under the laws of the OT or we aren't under those laws.

Once again, Jesus did not repeal the laws of the OT...but He did modify them a bit.

Christians speak out against gay marriage. Then they go out to work wearing two different types of fabric. And many of them don't even stone their children to death when they misbehave, nor do they force raped women to marry their rapists.

Oh, my. You're cutting it pretty close, aren't you? Somehow, I don't think that what our clothes are made of is nearly as important as our purpose in wearing certain clothing. I think you know what I mean. Anyhow, we have to wear what is available. Me, I prefer pure cotton, if I can get it. It's so comfortable, and so easy to care for....but I digress.
Stoning our children...really? Again, who is without sin to throw the stones? On the other hand, I am still responsible to God for my children, until they are grown, yes? Once they are adults, they are subject to the same laws as any other adults...if my grown child steals, rapes, assaults, etc, I have no choice but to turn him over to the legal authorities, who will deal with him. It may break my heart, but there it is...
Forcing raped women to marry their attackers? Well, they could have let her go on to marry someone else, who would then have her stoned for not being a virgin, I suppose....but wait, the stoning thing is out, right? So, she is now free to go. Cool!

My point? I don't have one. I'm asking a question.

Which rules/laws count and which rules/laws don't?

Also, another question: why is it that ONLY the rules/laws that the MAJORITY of Christians can personally find agreeable are the ones that mainstream Christianity claims are the ones that "we still have to follow." Are you saying it's just a coincidence? Like, "Hey, whew! I, a man from Kentucky, really lucked out, because all the things in the old testament that still count I'm okay with! All the things it says I'm not supposed to do I don't mind not doing, but the things it says I should do I do love doing! I sure am glad that I'm white, straight, and wealthy."

White, straight, and wealthy? Since when does God have any laws against not being white, or poor? or from Kentucky???

Moving along: Jesus Christ.

I love him. I do. I have no bad words to speak about Jesus nor would I dare utter a single one of them. In all my life I have never read about a more loving, wonderful person.

Amen.

How come Christians don't believe in anything he says? Like, none of them do. I haven't even met one yet.

If that were true, they would not be Christians, would they?

Every single Christian I met would rather judge other people and throw stones than do a single thing Jesus asked them to do. And their justifications for their behavior always comes from the Old Testament.

In other words, every single Christian you've met was human. Imagine that.

Does the New Testament not count?

Example: Jesus said that the way to salvation is through him and him alone.

He specifically wrote that he did NOT!! come here to condemn the world but to save it.

Right. The world is already condemned. In fact, that is sort of the point...

So why is it that all Christians seem to do is condemn everyone? To throw stones.

First of all, if anyone, Christian or not, is actually throwing stones at you, please call 911 immediately.
Oh, you are speaking metaphorically, right? These details are important...
Once again, Christians are not perfect. If we were, we would not need Jesus, would we?

The same people who say they're against "immoral gay marriage" are the same people who are against raising the minimum wage and against helping the poor.

Hey, I am definitely not against raising the minimum wage, pal!! And I can't think of any Christians I know who are against helping the poor!! It's what we do...

"Oh, but the bible says (insert old testament passage)"

Yeah, I believe you. I know that's what the bible says.

What does JESUS say?

He says to give everything you have away to the poor.

No, darling...He told that to one specific man, known to us only as "the rich young ruler".
He didn't seem to think that the women who followed Him and supported His ministry with their own funds ought to do that, did He?
Nor did Peter give away his house, where Jesus was a frequent guest, nor his fishing boat, from which He often preached. They had a money sack, which Judas carried....
...and I'll bet you're quick to object when a Christian takes biblical quotes out of context...

Oh, but that doesn't count, right? It's not something you'd feel comfortable doing. So let's instead just quietly shuffle that one under the rug and focus on hating gays and lesbians for having the audacity to have been born a certain way.

First of all, most of us do not hate them. If we did, we'd let them go on their destructive path, and face God's judgement. We'd laugh when their little bottoms become slimy, infected messes, and we'd rejoice when they die painfully of some horrible disease.
As it is, we weep, as we try vainly to explain to them that God made this law for good reasons, and plead with them to obey Him.

Wait..."born a certain way"?? Honey, we are ALL "born a certain way"...every one of us is born with a tendency to sin. My sin may not be the same as yours, but I promise you, I do have sinful desires, and I, also, must fight them in myself, with God's help. Now, you can use the "born that way" excuse if you want to...but, as you pointed out, Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Let Him do what He came to do, for goodness sake!! Let Him save them!!!

Christians, on a near overwhelming level, support drone strikes, wars, and any manner of horrible things.

I don't even know what a "drone strike" is.
I definitely do NOT support war!!! I wouldn't even let my sons have G.I. Joe dolls when they were growing up. I am an original 60's "Flower Child"...


But the wonderful Jesus, to whom I admire and so greatly respect, not only said that we should turn the other cheek, but that whoever lives by the sword dies by it!

AMEN!!


Jesus Christ would have been the biggest liberal this world had ever seen.

And the very first Hippie!!

But if Christians saw him today, they would call him an "Obama-loving socialist."

I'm not sure that's true. After all, Obama supports abortion, which is surely a "horrible thing"...

Jesus LOVED the poor. He LOVED the sinners. The only thing Jesus Christ would truly dislike, from what I'm seeing, are Christians.

No, dear. Remember, He loves sinners. So much that He died for them.

So, tell me: does the old testament count more or less than what Jesus says count?

Jesus is the author of both books. He is our Immanuel. He is God in the flesh.

And anyone thinking of responding with the words: "Both count because there is no contradiction"

^^ You're not behaving honestly or with integrity. Anyone with objectivity can see that there are some seriously differing morals between the two.

Differing morals? I don't know...I would say, God dealing with people at different times. Remember when some folks were asking Him about divorce, what He said? "For the hardness of your heart God gave you this law, but in the beginning, it was not so"

I never once remember the Lord saying "Don't worry about this command, or that one. Dad was just in a bad mood that day." However, I do remember Him saying "A new commandment I give unto you...That you love one another...As I have loved you."

 

[Angelquill]

Oh, and btw...He also mentioned that men would know His disciples "by the love that they have, one for the other". Yep, His disciples have love. A person may call himself a Christian all he or she likes...but, according to the Lord Jesus Christ, a Christian will have love for others. If that person does not have that Christ like love, then, no matter what they may tell you, they are not Christians.
However, you must understand...as a loving parent, I want my chlldren to grow up to be honest men and women in the world. Therefore, when they were little, I would correct them if they were dishonest. Did I love them while I was punishing them? You betcha. Was I angry that they disobeyed me? Yes. Did it make me sad? YES!!
God, who is a much better parent than I am, is heart sick at our sin. His deepest desire is that we not perish, but come to repentance.
My plea with the gay community is "Repent. Please, come to God and let Him cleanse you from your sin. Please, please, please, do not perish. Come, drink of the Water of Life, and LIVE!!"

 

[ebia]

The bible is, ultimately, a story.

Such other stuff, commands, instructions rules, etc, occur within the story.

All of it is our back story. But our part is to live our part of the story in appropriate continuation, not to repeat earlier parts over and over.

 

[Targaryen]

The bible is, ultimately, a story.

Such other stuff, commands, instructions rules, etc, occur within the story.

All of it is our back story. But our part is to live our part of the story in appropriate continuation, not to repeat earlier parts over and over.

 

[Parogar]

Looking back, much of what I wrote in my original post was written from a position of anger.

I apologize.

 

[Radagast]

Which rules/laws count and which rules/laws don't?

Short answer: it's complicated.

The New Testament has a great deal to say about the purpose of the Old Testament, the abolition of certain laws, and the endorsement of others. Generally, Christians follow the Old Testament moral (as opposed to the ceremonial) law.

How come Christians don't believe in anything he says? Like, none of them do. I haven't even met one yet.

A bit harsh, don't you think?

 

[dpadre]

Amen

 

[dpadre]

If that person does not have that Christ like love, then, no matter what they may tell you, they are not Christians.

All I have to say is don't judge a book by it's cover, We all are sinners and don't show Christ like behavior and Love 100% of the time. We shouldn't be so fast to judge others and and assume they haven't asked Jesus into their heart.