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That´s all a bit too circular for me.
I still don´t see how having a concept of deliberation means that you are "free of predeterminism".
We are not free from being known.
God cannot come to know our choices.
We cannot conceive of an idea that is not already eternally present in the mind of God.
One of the significant differences between God's ideas and our ideas is that we are not the first ones to have our ideas.
God does not read minds; He writes them.
And if I can deliberate that doesn´t mean my actions aren´t determined.If you couldn't deliberate, then you'd have all your actions already decided.
Yes, but I didn´t say we were machines (and I have problems following your implication that everything that´s not a machine has "freewill"/"genuine choice"). I said that our deliberations (and consequently our actions) are determined.Being subject to a mechanism does not necessarily follow to you being a machine.
So in which way would our will be free when our deliberations are determined?Our deliberation as a mechanism may be determined, but we are still able to deliberate. There is at least a measure of free will involved, even if it isn't in a way that we'd be free from causal determinism.
That´s why I keep asking you the question that I have been asking all the time.We don't want to create a contradiction in our metaphysics
Of course the determining factors are countless and multifaceted. As are the factors that led to the universe being the way it is and developing the way it does.The deliberations are not absolutely determined, but factor in that we have multiple impulses that conflict in one way or another. There is a nurture factor competing with the nature factor, if you will. And our deliberations are not predetermined beyond what our impulses are limited to, which can be multifaceted.
The fact that the determining factors are countless and multifaceted isn´t an argument against the sum of them is determining our "choices" and consequently our actions. Now, you may postulate that our volition is free of whatever - but your argument doesn´t support that it is free from being determined.The fact that we are not compelled by necessity to choose only one course of action suggests that there is a measure of freedom in our volition
Well, that's refreshingly honest. God is the originator and original conceiver of all ideas, including genocide, rape, murder, and other such wicked things.
Given this, why would you continue to worship such a wicked being?
I disagree. Ultimately, if God is the originator of wicked ideas, such as the Holocaust, then he is indeed wicked. If we condemn Hitler for the Holocaust, what must we make of the one who gave him the idea?God works all things together for the good of those he has love Him and calls according to His purpose, but not so much for the rest of you. I can see your point.
A famous sculptor was asked how he made such realistic sculptures. He answered that he started with a marble monolith and then chipped away the unneeded pieces. So you see, a thing is defined as much by what it is not as by what it is. God is not wicked, and He is aware it; and now, so are we.
I disagree. Ultimately, if God is the originator of wicked ideas, such as the Holocaust, then he is indeed wicked. If we condemn Hitler for the Holocaust, what must we make of the one who gave him the idea?
If your religious beliefs require you to believe that the Holocaust is a good and God-ordained thing, why doesn't that raise questions as to the veracity of your religion? If you end up concluding, "The Holocaust wasn't bad", that's basically the litmus test for an error in your logic.
If God is so wicked as to cause the Holocaust, why trust that he's working for the good of those who love him? If he's willing to go to such ghastly lengths, it's conceivable that he would also lie. So, why worship him? Why trust that it's all for the greater good?
I'm honestly not trying to be antagonistic or anything, I'm genuinely just trying to fathom how you could believe in, and worship, and trust, and call 'good', a being that would allow and instigate something like the Holocaust.
Weird analogy.A potter may be a fair man, but the relationship between the potter and the clay is inherently unfair.
Weird analogy.
1. The potter didn´t create the clay,
2. the potter didn´t create the universe,
3. clay is not a conscious being.
So what?It is a biblical analogy. I did not coin it.
More reasons why the analogy is poor. Exactly my point.Both the potter and the clay are finite. The difference between them is finite. The difference between finites is always finite.
The difference between the Creator and the creature is infinite. The difference between a finite and an infinite is always infinite.
I've always found the potter-and-clay analogy to be very poor. There are several fundamental differences between God and a potter:A potter may be a fair man, but the relationship between the potter and the clay is inherently unfair. Is it really so unfair as to be unjust that a potter would make some items for noble use and some for ignoble use from the same lump of clay? We are infinitely more like the lump of clay than we are God. It is not fair, but neither is it unjust.
Perhaps, but as it's written, by their fruits ye shall know them. If God causes wicked thoughts and wicked deeds, what else can we conclude about God except that he is wicked?God's revelation of what He is not is no good measure of what He is.
If we are only playing our part, then what of free will? If we are at the mercy of God's whims, then what good does it do to worship him? If God does such wicked things to both followers and non-followers, what reason do I have to join, or convert, or find favour in God? You've painted him in a very dark light indeed.I can sympathize with your perspective; it really does not work out well for you.
It is not fair, but neither is it unjust.
We all play our part in God's revelation of His glory. Some are being fashioned into the image of Jesus Christ; others are chipped away. Like I wrote in my above post, a thing is defined as much by what it is not as it is by what it is.
I merit God's favor no more than any other lump of clay; however, I have found favor in God. I sincerely hope that you do also.
I'm very much alive, thank you, but thank you for saying I have understanding; all too often non-Christians are automatically rejected as ignorant savages.It must be tough to understand as much as you do and still be dead.
I've been wondering about this idea of naturalism, i.e., that humans are nothing more than physical beings. If our brains are just a bunch of chemicals and electrical impulses, does that mean our behaviors are pre-programmed? How does free will enter the picture (if at all)?
Well, that's refreshingly honest. God is the originator and original conceiver of all ideas, including genocide, rape, murder, and other such wicked things.
Given this, why would you continue to worship such a wicked being?
His artistic whimsy has caused horrific suffering across the globe. It reminds me of Guillermo Vargas' Exposición N° 1.God did not create the world like a carpenter creates a stool, or like a potter fashions a bowl for that sake. He is not a scientist intelligently designing the perfect world in order to impress someone (if so he would have been quite a failure indeed).
He is rather like an artists creating the world for the pure love of it. And because he himself is freedom that is also the essence of his creation.
It is a given that naturalism implies determinism.
God did not create the world like a carpenter creates a stool, or like a potter fashions a bowl for that sake. He is not a scientist intelligently designing the perfect world in order to impress someone (if so he would have been quite a failure indeed).
He is rather like an artists creating the world for the pure love of it. And because he himself is freedom that is also the essence of his creation.
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