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Does Matthew 24 describe the rapture?

Jamdoc

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Yes, at least Matthew 24:29-31 is. Paul pulled from the Olivet Discourse to describe the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Pretribulationists disregard it as a rapture passage specifically because it does not align with their timing.

Jesus and Paul were both referring back to Zechariah 9:14-16

Going forth as lightning, the trumpet, whirlwinds so He is in the clouds (and note Jesus is identifying Himself as the Lord God here), and lifting His people above the land. An Ensign is a word for a banner, so they are caught up and put on display in the sky above the land.
 
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Fisherking

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On a timeline of 2520 day 7 years, on what day is the AoD setup ?

da1................................................................ ?.................................................................day 2520
1260 - 30 = 1230

1335 = Two-witnesses who show up 1335 days before the 2nd coming ends all these wonders

1290 = False Prophet who commits the AoD 1290 days before the 2nd coming, and 30 days before the DOTL, which is the day God allows the AC to go forth conquering, 30 days after the AoD, thus the Jews who repent in Zech. 13:8-9 (the 1/3 or 5 million) have 30 days to flee Judea before the AC conquers them, if he was the 1290 he would NEVER ALLOW the Jews to flee Judea.

Dan. 9:27 says the Roman King to come (HE) Causes the Sacrifice to cease, meaning he has political influence, meaning the Agreement (Covenant) with Israel is a simply nut to crack...Israel will join the E.U. and thus the E.U. President will of course then have much political influence over Israel, their Government is a part of a larger Gov. who will have influence from afar. B y the way, God was never talking about some PROFANE MEAT SACRIFICE being taken away, He was saying that after Israel repents at the 1335, which cleanses the temple, this Jewish High Priest False Prophet will FORBID Jesus Worship in "his temple" via a Decree of no Jesus worship, and he will also get cheeky, and put up an image of the E.U. President into the temple, and if Israel is in the E.U. the average non God believing person will see no problem with this, but the 1/3 who repent will obviously be hip to this being the AoD, after all they are being instructed by Elijah & Moses AND the Holy Spirit.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I am not sure how you can get "anytime before" when the text clearly says, (and tells us not to be deceived about it) that it will not happen before. It is NOT at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


"Last Day..." John 6:39-45, John 11:24, John 12:48
"Last Trump..." 1 Corin 15:52, 1 Thess 4:14-18
"After the (Great Tribulation) of those days..." Matt 24:21, 29-30, Mark 13:24-27, Dan 12:1-2,13
After the great falling away... 2 Thess 2:3
After the revealing of the man of sin... 2 Thess 2:3

It cannot happen today, because the great falling away has not happened yet, nor has the man of sin been revealed. It is not the last day; the last trumpet has not sounded. The first trumpet has not even sounded. It cannot happen today because the great tribulation has not happened yet. Every single scripture you use says the exact opposite of what you are suggesting. It will happen on the LAST day AFTER the great tribulation of those days. I know, I used to believe these things (45 years ago) until I actually read the verses in context.
 
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Douggg

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That s not clear. Make a timeline chart. show what day on the timeline that the timeframes begin and end..



 
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Fisherking

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That s not clear. Make a timeline chart. show what day on the timeline that the timeframes begin and end..
Its clear enough.....I do not do charts, its a waste of time, these things are not hard to comprehend.
 
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Douggg

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I am not sure how you can get "anytime before" when the text clearly says, (and tells us not to be deceived about it) that it will not happen before. It is NOT at hand.
In 2Thesslaonians2:1-2, Paul was dispelling rumors that the day of the Lord had already begun

Paul then iterated that the beginning of the day of Christ (the day of the Lord) would not begin until there is (1) a falling away and (2) the man of sin revealed by committing the act of 2Thessalonians2:4.

In 1Thessalonians5:9-11, it indicates the resurrection/rapture (the gathering unto the Lord) will happen before the day of the Lord begins, which God wrath would be poured out when the day of the Lord begins.
 
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Douggg

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Its clear enough.....I do not do charts, its a waste of time, these things are not hard to comprehend.
Are you saying that you don't possess the ability to make timeline charts ?
 
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Fisherking

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You like most are being deceived by the Church of England translators who were trying to smear the RCC. Two evil churches trying to smear one another, so much so that one changes a KNOWN TRANSLATION of Departing to "Falling Away" when NOWHERE in the whole passage is Faith being spoken about, but a Gathering Together unto Christ Jesus is in the very first verse (Rapture).

My blog of 10 years ago, where I take my que from Pastor Tommy Ice

Is the Falling Away a mistranslation by the Church of England translators?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great "Falling Away" also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end(as in now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. But I do not think the true church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the (1)apostasy comes first, and the (2)man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage. And by the way, this all about when God's wrath falls, not when the AC comes onto the scene, he is one of TWO THINGS that Paul says must happen before the DOTL comes.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)


Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church
. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away from the Faith. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth who also goes forth before God's Wrath falls onto mankind. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 some odd years via their 1611 rendition, all to take a swipe at their RCC rivals.


The real problem is people just trust translations, instead of looking towards God's true scriptures in full, not taking a bad translation for granted.
 
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keras

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The Christian person, absent from the body, will not be conscious of being in heaven ?
How can we go to heaven before any Judgment?
The dead 'sleep' and await the Judgment, to come after the Millennium.
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Faithful Christians will live with Jesus, the living people during the Millennium and the dead after the Judgment for Eternity.
 
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Douggg

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I do not want to, nor need to, I am 60 and find explaining simple numbers pretty easy.
You do a terrible job about explaining simple numbers.

Because you don't assign what the numbers pertain to, i.e. do you mean 1260 days ? 1260 months ? 1260 years ? 1260th day on a timeline ?

No-one else refers to the 1260th day, or day 1260, as "the 1260".
 
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Douggg

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How can we go to heaven before any Judgment?
Christians are born again, passing from judgement, condemnation, unto eternal life. Jesus died on the cross to atone for our sins. His shed blood washes away our sins

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. kjv
 
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Fisherking

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Dougggg you have used the same excuses for 10 years to dodge truths. I am not going to waste time explaining what any 10 year old could grasp its not Rocket Science, its simple numbers that go no higher than 2520......
 
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Douggg

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Dougggg you have used the same excuses for 10 years to dodge truths. I am not going to waste time explaining what any 10 year old could grasp its not Rocket Science, its simple numbers that go no higher than 2520......
A 10 year old would say 1260 days, not "the 1260". You are the only poster who says "the 1260" and not 1260 days.
 
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keras

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Christians are born again, passing from judgement, condemnation, unto eternal life. Jesus died on the cross to atone for our sins. His shed blood washes away our sins
Fine; we do have the Promise of Eternal life.
But Revelation 20:11-15 is plain; ALL people must stand before God in Judgment, to answer for what we have done in this life.
By the time this Judgment comes, Adam and Eve will have waited, 'sleeping ' in death: for nearly 7000 years.
 
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Douggg

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But Revelation 20:11-15 is plain; ALL people must stand before God in Judgment, to answer for what we have done in this life.
No, Christians who will have taken part in the resurrection/rapture event and the resurrection of the great tribulation saints don't have to appear before the Great White Throne judgment because they will have already been resurrected/raptured into their eternal life incorruptible bodies.
 
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keras

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There is no such thing as a 'resurrection/rapture event'.
The GT martyrs are only brought back to life. That is; mortal life , as Revelation 20:4-6 makes clear, but they do have the Promise of eternal life, as their names are Written in the Book of life.

Your beliefs simply do not conform with what is Prophesied to happen.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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This is pure, utter nonsense. Paul saying there would be a mass falling away from the faith and a loosing of the restraint on wickedness before Jesus returns lines up with what Jesus Himself said would happen before the end of the age when He returns.

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Are you going to try to twist what Jesus said, too? Are you going to deny that there will be a time before Christ comes again when many turn away from the faith and time when the love of most will grow cold because of the increase of wickedness?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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How can we go to heaven before any Judgment?
The dead 'sleep' and await the Judgment, to come after the Millennium.
Have you never read these scriptures...

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Paul made it very clear that while we are at home in the body (bodily alive) we are away from the Lord. And he indicated that it's far better to depart from the body (physically die) so that we can be "at home with the Lord" and "be with Christ". That shows that our souls and spirits depart from the body when we die and go to be with the Lord who is in paradise (the third heaven). Obviously, being with the Lord and not having to suffer any longer is far better than remaining in the body. But Paul was torn between wanting to die and go be with the Lord or remain alive so that he could help people who needed him.
 
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