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I think you're underestimating just how little we can know. If there is a being that can alter reality itself at will, then literally anything is possible.Looks like we have to go back one step further away then. There is much information on the religions of the world, all practically at your fingertips. Go and seek out the truth.
Use these tools: Set up a grid
Origin, Meaning, Morality, Destiny
check them against these
Logical consistency, Empirical adequacy, Experiential relevance.
If He did there would be no such thing as free will.[/QUOTE]E no such thing as free will.
If you can choose the former you can choose the latter.
QUOTE="cvanwey, post: 73686162, member: 409550"]And I disagree with your assertion that God 'does not impose His will on humans'. f
I think you're underestimating the power of God. I think you should ascribe greatness to the uncreated God and not on one of His creation.I think you're underestimating just how little we can know. If there is a being that can alter reality itself at will, then literally anything is possible.
If God imposed His will on us, we could not freely choose. Also I mentioned in my first post that Satan can't know the good of God therefore could not know or predict the works of God Incarnate. To make good on your assertion you have to prove that the works of Jesus are evil.I'm not sure what (you) are implying here. You only quoted/clipped a couple of very small pieces from my response. According to the tenets of Christianity, it is compulsory, like paying taxes. I also understand free will can mean differing things to differing people.
What point are YOU trying to make?
If God imposed His will on us, we could not freely choose.
Also I mentioned in my first post that Satan can't know the good of God therefore could not know or predict the works of God Incarnate.
To make good on your assertion you have to prove that the works of Jesus are evil.
No, I'm saying that the power of God is unknowable, which is very different than me claiming I know that God's power is less than something. In fact, everything you just said has to be assumed. We can't know any of that. We can't know how powerful any supernatural entities are, we can't know if any of them are uncreated, and we can't know if one created another. These are all assumptions we would need to make because evidence for any of them is impossible.I think you're underestimating the power of God. I think you should ascribe greatness to the uncreated God and not on one of His creation.
We make assumptions every day in normal living. Making useful assumptions are what we do as humans. We might be wrong sometimes but that being the case, do we throw that process out of our lives? I'd say we wouldn't be able to live a normal life without it, we wouldn't be able to progress or develop as a society.No, I'm saying that the power of God is unknowable, which is very different than me claiming I know that God's power is less than something. In fact, everything you just said has to be assumed. We can't know any of that. We can't know how powerful any supernatural entities are, we can't know if any of them are uncreated, and we can't know if one created another. These are all assumptions we would need to make because evidence for any of them is impossible.
Anything in the supernatural realm is beyond our capability to reason about because too much of it is unknowable, and impossible to fathom or comprehend.
For that analogy to be accurate people must choose to believe they have to pay taxes or face punishment.And as I already mentioned, imposing a dichotomy among humans, to 'accept or burn', is no more or less compulsory then imposing law on humans to 'pay taxes or be punished'
If that were true Jesus would have been a messiah well accepted. The fact that so few could grasp Jesus' teaching nor refute it is evidence of a higher good revealed not a deception. Also Divine Revelation has characteristics that deception can't duplicate. Deception relies on known concepts arranged in a way that can be easily understood and desired. Divine Revelation introduces never before known concepts that require new combinations of words and new words altogether. Not knowing such things Satan can only bring up the forgotten past, little metaphysics known by few or material facts yet discovered by science..Uuum, it's called the Old Testament. "Jesus' was a Rabbi, and read it. The best prophecies would be 'self fulfilling prophecies.'
Satan's intent isn't a mystery but you may hit on a few tricks he might pull in the future.I already didSatan's intent is to deceive. What better way to deceive, then to imitate a false Messiah, say things which resemble stuff from the Bible, and get billions to worship you; breaking the first commandment.
I think you're mixing up "assumptions" with "educated guesses". An assumption is something you believe with no evidence being possible to back it up. "I saw a miracle" is not evidence for "The source of that miracle created the universe". There's no connecting the two concepts, so it is an assumption.We make assumptions every day in normal living. Making useful assumptions are what we do as humans. We might be wrong sometimes but that being the case, do we throw that process out of our lives? I'd say we wouldn't be able to live a normal life without it, we wouldn't be able to progress or develop as a society.
Anything. Absolutely anything.What can you assume about the supernatural?
"Does Lucifer have free will?"
This presupposes his existence.
I am done.I think you're mixing up "assumptions" with "educated guesses". An assumption is something you believe with no evidence being possible to back it up. "I saw a miracle" is not evidence for "The source of that miracle created the universe". There's no connecting the two concepts, so it is an assumption.
Anything. Absolutely anything.
For that analogy to be accurate people must choose to believe they have to pay taxes or face punishment.
If that were true Jesus would have been a messiah well accepted. The fact that so few could grasp Jesus' teaching nor refute it is evidence of a higher good revealed not a deception.
Also Divine Revelation has characteristics that deception can't duplicate. Deception relies on known concepts arranged in a way that can be easily understood and desired. Divine Revelation introduces never before known concepts that require new combinations of words and new words altogether. Not knowing such things Satan can only bring up the forgotten past, little metaphysics known by few or material facts yet discovered by science..
Satan's intent isn't a mystery but you may hit on a few tricks he might pull in the future.
There are many who reject God even after He reveals Himself to them. They would rather suffer the consequences than pay taxes. They do have that choice.hus, it is not a choice to believe this dichotomy exists. You are either aware of this existing law. Or, you live in a 'cave' somewhere, completely disconnected from reality, or maybe have a severe cognitive handicap.
Good point. awareness is a key issue. I would venture to saY that prison is a bit more concrete a reality in the mind of Christians than hell is.We are aware of the existence of Yahweh
- We are aware of the the compulsory proposition, or consequences invoked upon us, if we choose not to comply
- If we are not, we are either too young, live in a 'cave', maybe possess a cognitive handy cap, other extreme circumstance
That's just not the way it works. If what you are thinking was true Jesus wouldn't have been totally rejected and utterly abandoned.Most were illiterate. Many would believe as soon as they saw him perform magic, while saying he was the messiah. Knowledge of fulfilled prophecy would take time and literacy.
So, should we still be waiting for the messiah like the Jews?Satan was thinking 'long term', so that successive later generations would 'connect the dots.'
The higheswt power of intellect is it's ability to receive Grace and become holy and perfect. A Christian need not fear Satan. Satan can't of his own volition fulfill prophecy. That does require omnipresence and knowledge and power. He relies on the times and seasons just as any other creature.Satan is smarter than all humans.
Maybe the finger of Satan wrote the commands on the stone tablets too.He mimics prophets, messiahs, and all others, to get the majority of the masses to worship false deities; sending themselves to hell without requiring further intervention.
There are many who reject God even after He reveals Himself to them. They would rather suffer the consequences than pay taxes. They do have that choice.
That's just not the way it works. If what you are thinking was true Jesus wouldn't have been totally rejected and utterly abandoned.
So, should we still be waiting for the messiah like the Jews?
The higheswt power of intellect is it's ability to receive Grace and become holy and perfect. A Christian need not fear Satan. Satan can't of his own volition fulfill prophecy. That does require omnipresence and knowledge and power. He relies on the times and seasons just as any other creature.
Maybe the finger of Satan wrote the commands on the stone tablets too.
If someone tells you if you drive your car with no brakes you'll crash and you do it anyway and crash were they imposing their will on you?As stated prior, you have the freedom to choose. But you stated God does not impose His will. Well, the God of the Bible, as with the IRS, are both imposing their will, so-to-speak. These agencies are the rule makers. Yes, you can defy such authority, by choice. However, authority then imposes their willYou go to hell, or are fined/sentenced to prison for noncompliance. Both systems are compulsory.
How do you distinguish the works of God from the works of Satan?That's the OT, not the NT.
If someone tells you if you drive your car with no brakes you'll crash and you do it anyway and crash were they imposing their will on you?
How do you distinguish the works of God from the works of Satan?
"Does Lucifer have free will?"
This presupposes his existence.
So let's assume his existence as a premise for this discussion.
If Lucifer has free will, doesn't that mean that he could repent of his sins and be forgiven? If so, and if he does, what does that mean in terms of Christian theology?
If he does not have free will, then can he really be held responsible for his actions? Wouldn't that mean that ultimately, God is responsible for the evils of the world?
I would want to say no. Repentance, according to Christian doctrine, would require doing so prior to natural death. However, if the ruler maker/imposer is all powerful and all loving, I guess God could do that, if Satan was to repent anyways?
Depends of the 'definition' of free will i guess? But regardless, it would appear God is the creator of the game, and Satan is just the player; and you know how that old saying goes
Dont Hate The Player Hate The Game GIF - DontHateThePlayerHateTheGame - Discover & Share GIFs
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