Does Light Form Darkness?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Your quote in post #18 clearly has you claiming what I bolded in post #19. No one "forced words" onto you or anyone else for that matter in this thread. I simply followed your reasoning to it's logical end.

Well no, you did not follow my reasoning...you used your logic, which was flawed...

 

[Humble Penny]

Well no, you did not follow my reasoning...you used your logic, which was flawed...

Did you know an etymological study of logic leads you to a literal translation to "mind, reason"? This means I used my mind to follow your reason by using reason, or followed your logic by using logic.

Lol this is funny

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Did you know an etymological study of logic leads you to a literal translation to "mind, reason"? This means I used my mind to follow your reason by using reason, or followed your logic by using logic.

Lol this is funny

I am happy you can amuse yourself...children are really good at that.

 

[daq]

.Does light form darkness; or does it contrast it?


According to the Laws of Thermodynamics there are inefficiencies with motion. All energy that isn't being converted to work, is being dissipated as heat. You can simply look at the coals of a fire, from the cold distance, and get an idea of the temperature of the fire. The higher the temperature the higher the frequency of light.

Why mention all of this? Because everything that is in motion therefore must emit light. Time is the relationship between objects in motion. No motion, no time. As the electron interacts in motion with the proton the atom exists. No motion, no matter. Time and matter cannot exist without emitting light. The light that they emit, testifies to their existence. The absence of their light testifies to the absence of their existence, darkness.

What does YHWH say?



(CLV) Isa 45:7
Former יצר of light and Creator ברא of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil, I, Yahweh, make עשה all these things.

Three different words are being used here to describe the order of creation.

I believe that darkness is the absence of light, which would also me the absence of matter, therefore motion, therefore time. Light creates the contrast to an absence of light, or darkness.

Let's go back to the beginning for more clues.

(CLV) Gn 1:1
In a beginning Elohim created ברא the heavens and the earth.

Well there we go! My understanding must be incorrect.

Not so fast.

(CLV) Gn 1:2
As for the earth, it came to be a chaos and vacant, and darkness was over the surface of the abyss. And the spirit of Elohim was vibrating (motion) over the surface of the waters.

Was what was created ברא vibrating?

(CLV) Gn 1:3
And Elohim said: Let light come to be יהי (he-shall-become)! And light came to be ויהי (and·he-is-becoming).

I don't have this all sorted out, but it would appear that this isn't as simple as it could be made out to be in Western understanding, from a translation to English, from an evolving language, derived from Ancient Hebrew.

Joshua 17:15-18 contains two occurrences of bara', (ברא), where it can really only be understood one way because of the context: try plugging that understanding into the passages you have quoted and see what happens.

 

[Trusting in Him]

.Does light form darkness; or does it contrast it?



Why mention all of this? Because everything that is in motion therefore must emit light. Time is the relationship between objects in motion. No motion, no time. As the electron interacts in motion with the proton the atom exists. No motion, no matter. Time and matter cannot exist without emitting light. The light that they emit, testifies to their existence. The absence of their light testifies to the absence of their existence, darkness.

I did not fully understand much of this when I first read it and largely skipped over the bits which mostly went over my head. I'm not disagreeing with this, but some of this I have not heard before and was just wondering where it comes from and if this is actual mainstream scientifically accepted fact.

I have never heard about "no motion, no matter", or that "time and matter cannot exist without emitting light". This comes as quite a revelation to me! Is this from some particular recognised scientific law. I was just wondering how this works and why I am having difficulty getting my head around some of this.

Thanks.

 

[HARK!]

Joshua 17:15-18 contains two occurrences of bara', (ברא), where it can really only be understood one way because of the context: try plugging that understanding into the passages you have quoted and see what happens.

Does man create a mountain in this passage; or could it be that his enemy is being driven off, as we pitch the protection of our tents, with our minds yoked to the headship of YHWH?

 

[AbbaLove]

I don't have this all sorted out, but it would appear that this isn't as simple as it could be made out to be in Western understanding, from a translation to English, from an evolving language, derived from Ancient Hebrew.

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see
the Light of the Gospel of the Glory of Christ, Who is the Image of God."

“Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children,
you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

"And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light
of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them;"






​

 

[daq]

Does man create a mountain in this passage; or could it be that his enemy is being driven off, as we pitch the protection of our tents, with our minds yoked to the headship of YHWH?

Does the Maker create evil? or does He cut it down?

 

[HARK!]

Does the Maker create evil? or does He cut it down?

I asked first.

We have Beth, Resh, Aleph, BRA.

The definition of the action form of this word is fill. The concrete form is fat.

BRA means to fatten, or fill up.

The action form might give us insight as to how how BRA was mistranslated as create. Light does fill darkness.

The parent root of this word is BR. When man's mind is tenting with itself; we might expect evil.

When man is yoked to, and tenting, with the headship of YHWH, filling ourselves on his word; we might not expect to see evil in that house.

BR is grain. Grain is seed. There is good seed, and bad seed. Apart from YHWH's headship, what kind of seed might we expect?

 

[daq]

I asked first.

Fair enough.

Does man create a mountain in this passage; or could it be that his enemy is being driven off, as we pitch the protection of our tents, with our minds yoked to the headship of YHWH?

It is the land of the Perizzy and the Rephaim, mighty trees, and one of the (seven) mountains, (and the Kanani in the valley have "chariots of iron"). These things cannot be cut down (imo) without the Headship of the Father through His Word.

 

[AbbaLove]

These things cannot be cut down (imo) without the
Headship of the Father through His Word.

AMEIN​

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.​

 

[Humble Penny]

.Does light form darkness; or does it contrast it?


According to the Laws of Thermodynamics there are inefficiencies with motion. All energy that isn't being converted to work, is being dissipated as heat. You can simply look at the coals of a fire, from the cold distance, and get an idea of the temperature of the fire. The higher the temperature the higher the frequency of light.

Why mention all of this? Because everything that is in motion therefore must emit light. Time is the relationship between objects in motion. No motion, no time. As the electron interacts in motion with the proton the atom exists. No motion, no matter. Time and matter cannot exist without emitting light. The light that they emit, testifies to their existence. The absence of their light testifies to the absence of their existence, darkness.

What does YHWH say?



(CLV) Isa 45:7
Former יצר of light and Creator ברא of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil, I, Yahweh, make עשה all these things.

Three different words are being used here to describe the order of creation.

I believe that darkness is the absence of light, which would also me the absence of matter, therefore motion, therefore time. Light creates the contrast to an absence of light, or darkness.

Let's go back to the beginning for more clues.

(CLV) Gn 1:1
In a beginning Elohim created ברא the heavens and the earth.

Well there we go! My understanding must be incorrect.

Not so fast.

(CLV) Gn 1:2
As for the earth, it came to be a chaos and vacant, and darkness was over the surface of the abyss. And the spirit of Elohim was vibrating (motion) over the surface of the waters.

Was what was created ברא vibrating?

(CLV) Gn 1:3
And Elohim said: Let light come to be יהי (he-shall-become)! And light came to be ויהי (and·he-is-becoming).

I don't have this all sorted out, but it would appear that this isn't as simple as it could be made out to be in Western understanding, from a translation to English, from an evolving language, derived from Ancient Hebrew.

I believe brother that Scripture clearly challenges us to rethink how we have commonly believed the mysteries of God's creation to actually work. The Word of God is clear that He created everything including light and darkness, but how He did it precisely is a mystery to us even though we experience on a daily basis: this should be sign enough that God made it work and that our current scientific understanding must be changed.

I believe if you allow yourself to take up this challenge then YHWH just may very well reveal these mysteries to you.

 

[AbbaLove]

I did not fully understand much of this when I first read it and largely skipped over the bits which mostly went over my head. I'm not disagreeing with this, but some of this I have not heard before and was just wondering where it comes from and if this is actual mainstream scientifically accepted fact.

Such darkness theory (like evolution theory) neglects the Supernatural Nature of His Light. The idea that Light comes from darkness is what the enemy would like some to imagine. Such nonsene is just another example of man's fallen nature. The OP's intentions may have been to see if any would be taken in by such absurdity. Always put your Trust in Him ... Proverbs 3:5-7 ... His Word equates darkness with evil.

"And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light
of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will Illumine them;"​

 

[HARK!]

יצר

ברא

עשה

I believe brother that Scripture clearly challenges us to rethink how we have commonly believed the mysteries of God's creation to actually work. The Word of God is clear that He created everything including light and darkness, but how He did it precisely is a mystery to us even though we experience on a daily basis: this should be sign enough that God made it work and that our current scientific understanding must be changed.

I believe if you allow yourself to take up this challenge then YHWH just may very well reveal these mysteries to you.

You haven't established any reason that I should rethink the question that I have presented.

I pointed out that YHWH uses three different words in the verse.

I provided my thoughts on what a deeper understanding of the word, according to the letter, might be for the word associated with darkness. In my experience physics has served to affirm YHWH's word.

Science Proves Creation

If you had understood the mystery presented in the OP; why didn't you reveal it?

 

[HARK!]

Such darkness theory (like evolution theory) neglects the Supernatural Nature of His Light. The idea that Light comes from darkness is what the enemy would like some to imagine. Such nonsene is just another example of man's fallen nature. The OP's intentions may have been to see if any would be taken in by such absurdity. Always put your Trust in Him ... Proverbs 3:5--7

"And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light
of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them;"​

Are you intentionally presenting a strawman argument; or do you simply not understand the question?

You won't be able to correctly answer the question; unless you understand the question.

I believe that YHWH transcends his physical creation. If YHWH is light; and YHWH preexisted his creation; and YHWH spoke light into existence within his creation; then obviously were talking about two different kinds of light. Those who worship the sun god might consider these words to be heresy. All who are not blind have seen light; but no one has seen the father. The Creator transcends the creation.

 

[Humble Penny]

You haven't established any reason that I should rethink the question that I have presented.

I pointed out that YHWH uses three different words in the verse.

I provided my thoughts on what a deeper understanding of the word, according to the letter, might be for the word associated with darkness. In my experience physics has served to affirm YHWH's word.

Science Proves Creation

If you had understood the mystery presented in the OP; why didn't you reveal it?

Don't get me wrong brother HARK! I believe that Scripture and Science are in harmony. I only made the point that sometimes we are looking at the subject from the wrong vantage point.

To answer you plainly you actually helped me recall a debate I had with another gentlemen outside of here. In that debate he asserted the fact that God did not create everything in a span of 6 Days but, instead at the same time on Day 1.

His reasoning was that because we read of bara "create" in Genesis 1:1 while on Day 4 we see the Hebrew asah "fashion, made". Therefore he concluded that bara and asah are not meant to be used interchangeably or mean the same thing.

I refuted his erroneous ideas by pointing out the following formulas used in the creation week:

Day 1 (Genesis 1:1-5) "Let there be"
Day 2 (Genesis 1:6-8) "Let there be"
Day 3 (Genesis 1:9-13) "Let the earth sprout"
Day 4 (Genesis 1:14-19) "Let there be lights"
Day 5 (Genesis 1:20-23) "Let there the waters teem"
Day 6 (Genesis 1:24-31) "Let the earth bring forth"

It is clear that these formula tell the reader that these things God called into existence were at one time non-existent. And when we look at the close of the creation week we find the following...

"Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made."
Genesis 2:1‭-‬3 NASB1995 (emphasis added mine)

Here we find that the Hebrew bara and asah appear next to one another. This clearly shows Moses used these words to mean that God created all thing in a span of 6 Days. If we look at the 6th Day we find this to be true again...

"Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."
Genesis 1:26‭-‬27 NASB1995 (emphasis added mine)

And to be sure God indeed created Adam on the 6th Day let's consult Moses further...

"This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. Out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
Genesis 2:4‭-‬9 NASB1995 (emphasis added mine)

It is clear from the gentleman's view, whom I debated, that he is proven to be wrong on two points:

1. If God created everything on Day 1 then the garden of Eden should have also been completed then in addition to Adam. However this is contradicted by Day 3 where God commands the earth to bring forth all types of plant life.
2. Seeing that God formed Adam from the dust of the ground just like the animals of the earth: God created Adam on Day 6 after the animals as we plainly read and not on Day 1. And since Adam did not exist until God formed him from the dust of the ground shows yet again in context that the Hebrew bara and asah are meant to be understood to describing the same act of God "creating" or "bringing things into existence".

This then will help us understand what YHWH is communicating in Isaiah 45:17 and why He uses three different Hebrew words:

1. yatsar "form, fashion"
2. bara "to shape, create"
3. asah "do, make"

It's clear that these are all acts of doing something or types of actions. Yet it is clear from the context that YHWH is telling us through the prophet Isaiah that He is the one who accomplishes and brings these things to pass. Or simply put:

I YHWH do all these things.

A final point I would like to highlight is that prior to Genesis 1:1 nothing existed: therfore God had to create or "bring everything into existence" in order to make or "form and fashion them".

 

[Humble Penny]

Are you intentionally presenting a strawman argument; or do you simply not understand the question?

You won't be able to correctly answer the question; unless you understand the question.

I believe that YHWH transcends his physical creation. If YHWH is light; and YHWH preexisted his creation; and YHWH spoke light into existence within his creation; then obviously were talking about two different kinds of light. Those who worship the sun god might consider these words to be heresy. All who are not blind have seen light; but no one has seen the father. The Creator transcends the creation.

Sadly brother many people cannot see this because their understanding is obscured by our modern understanding of the world which YHWH has created. And some just don't have strong reading and comprehension skills.

I agree with you 100% Percent YHWH transcends all His creations just lile the Potter is greater than the clay. Yes the Light of God from which all other lights receive their light are not to be confused as being the same.

The farthest I ever got along in my musings on this topic as to how YHWH could have brought matter into the world is that He had to create and form it using His light. And from here our sense of hot, dry, wet, cold, heavy, light, etc. were all defined and brought about by the power of the Word: for all words come from the Word. And this would harmonize with what we read in creation.

So though I am unable to explain it much beyond that as my mind hasn't been moved to comprehend these kinds of scientific matters, that is what I could reason out.

 

[AbbaLove]

It's very possible the enemy has confused you to the point of starting such an absurd thread. It may tickle a few ears (i doubt it). However, it does zero, zilch, nada to further the advancement of His Word on earth. If anything this thread you started detracts from His Word.

Darkness is equated with evil in both the TaNaKh and the Brit Chadashah.

"And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light
of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will Illumine them;"
​

You (as well as HP) fail to grasp Spiritual significance of Genesis 1:4 ... "He separated the Light from the darkness"

And God said, “Let there be Light,” and there was Light.
God saw that the Light was good, and He separated the Light from the darkness.


​

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Are you intentionally presenting a strawman argument; or do you simply not understand the question?

You won't be able to correctly answer the question; unless you understand the question.

I believe that YHWH transcends his physical creation. If YHWH is light; and YHWH preexisted his creation; and YHWH spoke light into existence within his creation; then obviously were talking about two different kinds of light. Those who worship the sun god might consider these words to be heresy. All who are not blind have seen light; but no one has seen the father. The Creator transcends the creation.

Created (physical light...sun) and Un-created Immortal light (Divine Light)....He alone who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I provided my thoughts on what a deeper understanding of the word, according to the letter, might be for the word associated with darkness. In my experience physics has served to affirm YHWH's word.

Hoshek?