Does John's 1st epistle make more sense with OSAS or with Conditional Salvation?

[Bible Highlighter]

The Context of 1st John
(From Within the Epistle Itself):

What does John mean by “death?”

It is unlikely John means the physical death common to all humankind, whether righteous or unrighteous. With the exception of the final generation when Jesus returns, all humans will inevitably die. In the only other occurrence of "death" in the epistle (1 John 3:14) John claims true believers have already "passed over out of (ek) death into (eis) life." Those who do not love the brethren are already "abiding in death" (note the Greek present tense – an ongoing state of abiding “in death”). In the Greek clause both “life” and “death” have the definite article; that is, “the life” and “the death.” John is referring to two different spheres or realms: one of life and one of death.

Elsewhere in 1 John we read that those who love the saints “abide in the light” (1 John 2:10), are “born of God (1 John 4:7) and God abides in them (1 John 4:12). In comparison those who hate their brothers and sisters “are in darkness until now” (1 John 2:9), “walk in the darkness” (1 John 2:11) and “do not know God” (1 John 4:8). John is contrasting two different spheres, one characterized by light and life, the other by darkness and death. What determines in which realm one lives is one’s relationship to God and the community of faith. 1 John 3:14 is parallel to John 5:24 ("he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed over out of the death into the life”) where the exact same terminology is found.

John uses terms like “life,” “death,” “light” and “darkness” metaphorically to contrast two different manners of living; two different kinds of character. Those who love God and His children already live in light and life. Those who do not even now dwell in the realms of darkness and death. Nothing is said of whether one can change the “realm” in which one lives.

What does John mean by “ask for life” in 1 John 5:16?

In 1 John “everlasting life” is what God has promised to true believers (1 John 2:25). Who are these true believers? Those who love God and the brethren have already passed over from the realm of death to that of life (1 John 3:14). God has given those who love Him life that is found only in His Son (1 John 5:11) and those who believe in the name of the Son already have “everlasting life” (1 John 5:13). Indeed, God sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might have life even now (1 John 4:9). When John speaks of life he does not mean the mortal existence all humans have between birth and death, but the “everlasting life” from God that is found only in the Son, a life we can possess and experience in some sense now, though its fullness awaits the Age to Come.

In comparison the one who hates his brother does not have eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15) and the one who does not have the Son already lacks life (1 John 5:12). Though one continues to exist, one does not in any sense possess the everlasting life of the Age to Come. Those who have the Son and love the brethren already have “life” (1 John 2:25)(1 John 3:14) (1 John 5:11-13).

John’s epistle begins with the thematic statement about the “Word of life” (1 John 1:1-3), the life of the Father manifested in the historical person of Jesus Christ and now proclaimed as the message of “everlasting life.” In this epistle the term “life” is a way to sum up what God has done for believers including “being in the light” (1 John 1:5), the forgiveness of sins (1 John 1:9-2:2) (1 John 4:10), the granting of everlasting life (1 John 1:2) (1 John 2:25) (1 John 3:14) (1 John 5:11-13) (1 John 5:20), fellowship with one another (1 John 1:7), an anointing (1 John 2:20), love from the Father (1 John 3:1), the status of “children of God” (1 John 3:1-2) (1 John 3:10) (1 John 5:2), the hope of becoming like Him (1 John 3:2-3), the gift of the Spirit (1 John 3:24) (1 John 4:13), being “born of God” (1 John 5:1), and our victory over the world (1 John 5:4-5). John summarizes his message with the statement, “and this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”. Compare 1 John 5:11 with 1 John 5:20.

Historical & Literary Context:

John was writing to a congregation (or possibly several small ones) experiencing turmoil caused by doctrinal disputes with former members (hereafter referred to as ‘secessionists’), individuals who had left the church and were teaching heretical doctrines (1 John 2:18-28) (1 John 4:1-6) (1 John 5:6-7). This problem went beyond discouraged or disgruntled individuals who had simply left the church. Some of them were attempting to propagate their false teachings to those still in the assembly (1 John 2:26) (1 John 4:1-3) (2 John 1:7), raising the possibility that some members of John’s congregations would be deceived and also leave the assembly.

In his opening section John lays out the main claims of the secessionists. They claimed to have “fellowship with Jesus” and to walk with Him (1 John 1:6), “to have no sin” (1 John 1:8), and that they “have not sinned” (1 John 1:10). In the same passage John provides some of the details of the controversies in play. To their claim of “fellowship with Jesus” John responds that those walking with Him “love one another” and Jesus' blood “is cleansing us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). By implication the secessionists were failing to love the brethren. As to having no sin, John points out the necessity of confessing sin and thereby receiving forgiveness (1 John 1:9). And as to the assertion they “have not sinned,” John cites this as evidence that His word is not in them (1 John 1:10).

The secessionists boasted that they have come “to know Him” (1 John 2:4). John refutes this with the charge they are “not keeping His commandments,” the logic being that if you know Him you will keep his commandments. They boasted that they are “abiding in him (1 John 2:6). If so, John retorts, they should be “walking in the same manner” as did Jesus. The secessionists emphasized that they are “in the light” yet, as John points out, they hate their brothers and sisters (1 John 2:9). When John speaks of “commandments” he is not thinking of the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Law, but of God’s commands to love Him, believe in His Son and to love one another. In other words, the community of faith (1 John 3:23) (1 John 4:21) (1 John 5:2-3). Likewise “walking in the manner Jesus walked” refers above all to following his example of self-sacrificial love for one’s brothers and sisters (1 John 3:16).

Source:
Gospeltoallnations.org
(Please take note that this link is no longer active; But it was active at one time).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, you asserted that 1 John 2:26 clarified what John wrote in 1 John 1:8. You said that those in verse 26 who were trying to "deceive" or "seduce" were gnostics urging the recipients of John's letter to deny sin's existence. But this isn't correct. Only three verses earlier, John says exactly what the "seducers" were urging John's readers to accept:

1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

See? No mention here of gnostics pressing John's readers to deny the existence of sin. So why, then, are you asserting that the "seducers" in verse 26 were doing so? Nothing in the text of 1 John 1 or 2, in fact, gives you any ground for this assertion.

Again, 1 John 1:8 is a part of 1 John 2:26. John is informing them of the problems in 1 John 1:8 and then says he writes these things to them that are trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). There is no indication that John was writing about a problem that they had excusively all on their own earlier. It is all one letter and there are no chapter breaks.

None of what you wrote here is evident in the text of 1 John 1. John says not one thing about a "sin and still be saved type of belief." He simply says, "if you say you have no sin, you lie." I know plenty of believers who not only deny they are sinful people but who don't recognize their own sin for the sin that it is! Why couldn't John be speaking to such people? I don't have to read anything into his words or twist them in any way to apply his words in verse 8 to such people. But you do. You have to posit gnostics, and John's unexpressed intentions in writing, and then add copiously to the meaning of his words. This is a sure way NOT to get at what he actually means.

1 John 1:8 is written to YOU or ALL people. It is not just for a certain people who died out long ago. It's application is also for the believer today. So whether you think 1 John 1:8 was a part of the false gnostic belief or not is not relevant to the heart of understanding 1 John 1:8. What is relevant to understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves it into a past declaration. There are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

I already answered this. Are you actually reading what I'm writing? Doesn't seem like it...When John wrote "sin not," did he mean "you must never sin"? Of course not! That would be a silly thing to think in light of
1 John 1:8:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

No. John did mean to "sin not." His words did mean what they say at face value in 1 John 2:1. Again, I would not tell you to "cough not" if I knew you could not help but to do so because your cold is severe. The New English Version on 1 John 1:8 says,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment.

Does John go on after writing this to warn believers that they will lose their salvation if they sin? No, instead he writes,

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

This sounds very much like what I've been saying about Christ being a complete and perfect atonement for our sin! No warning by John of lost salvation when we sin, but a only reminder that the sinning believer has an Advocate with the Father in Christ and that he has paid the penalty for all their sin. This fits with OSAS very well.

Uh, no it doesn't. First, John says IF.... IF.... we confess our sins... he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins in 1 John 1:9. John also says.... IF.... IF we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. John also says in 1 John 3:8 that he that commits sin is of the devil. John then distinguishes between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:10. He says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10). It's why John says,
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15). So a believer just hating their brother is enough for them in not having eternal life to abide within them.

1 John 4:17-19
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

I am very keenly aware of how vital righteous living is to walking well with God. But I ought to live rightly, not because I'm afraid of losing my salvation and going to hell, but because I love God with all my heart and can't stand being out of fellowship with Him. Fear, has no place in my fellowship with God, only love (see also 1 Cor. 13:1-3; Matt. 22:3-38)

Perfect love casts out fear. What is that according to Scripture?

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6).

It says whoever keeps His Word verily is the love of God perfected.
It's why Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments.
Just what Bible have you been reading?

I don't hold to the notion that a believer can just live as they like. Neither do any of those I know who hold to OSAS as I do. As before, you are arguing against Strawmen. It is the love of God that constrains us, not His wrath; it is His Spirit that transforms us, not the terrifying goad of lost salvation; it is love that correctly motivates us as believers, not the craven fear of a slave of a cruel and capricious master. I don't fear God's grace as you seem to do. I don't require legalism to prompt me to right living. I obey God because I love Him. As far as God is concerned, no other motive for my obedience is acceptable to Him.

Selah.

You believe in a contradiction.
On the one hand you will say that you do not believe a saint can live however they like. Then on the other hand, you will say a believer is forever saved (regardless of what sin they commit). Okay, how exactly are they supposed to live then? Are there sins that determine if a saint is saved or not?

Is it not the following that is written in Scripture true?

"...by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." (Proverbs 16:6).


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