Does it matter?

[lithium.]

Creation is a fact and never changes.

Lets me change this. If creation is fact where is the facts/evidence. There is none so it can't be fact.

 

[lithium.]

Should any and all scientific "theories" be dismissed and tossed out?

Noway if that ever happened all life on earth would become stupid HEH.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Oh, now this is so sad it's funny...

*RANT MODE ON*

Originally posted by JohnR7
The "authorities" your refering to did not exist 2000 years ago. At that time the Romans were the authorities and they were polytheistic, and that means just about anything goes. The Hebrew authorities only had control over the Hebrews.

My point is that the Christian "authorities" may not have been in place 2000 years ago, but have been ever since. Did you look up Bruno? Do you see what happens when people disagreed with the Church?

And are you equating polytheism with anarchy? That's nonsense. 

There could well be a problem with those who promote creationism, as there is with most all 'ism's. There is going to be a problem with most anything that is taught by man.

Those who are taught by the Creator really have no debate with those who do not beleive. They are only required to give a witness and a testimony to show what they know to be true. The truth of what they say is usually demonstrated with a show of power. In the early church that show of power was in the form of miracles, healing and so forth. Moses had to show he had more power than his competition by things like the parting of the Red Sea. Then there was Elijah who showed the truth over the teaching of the followers of Baal when he was able to call down fire from Heaven.

If you believe that miracles=power=truth, fine, then might makes right. Perfrom a miracle and we'll talk some more.

Even those who follow Evolution be it a ism or not, they must offer proof. Just an observation or a opinion of a observation is not enough.

observation is proof. You were there; you saw it happen. Some other people were there with you; they saw the same thing. It's hard to argue with that.

Tell me about the last miracle you and your friends witnessed and we'll talk some more.

Today we establish what we know to be true through the miracles and the healings. When we go to Africa many are healed of Aids. Science can delay death from aids, maybe for even up to 12 years, but they can not duplicate the results that the followers of creation can, by having a person who once was HIV positive come back with HIV negative results.

1. Present one credible documented case of someone having AIDS and being "cured."

2. Prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was the "followers of creation," as you call them, that were responsible.

3. If the "followers of creation" can cure AIDS, then by all means, they should be able to do it again in a hospital setting.

Meet these three scientific criteria and we'll talk some more.

The proof then is that the rate of infection from Aids was 4 million a year and it is now down to 3.6 million a year in the south part of the African Continent. A change of .4 million.

And you want to give the miraculous healings performed by the "followes of creation" the credit for this? Are you sure that the drop in numbers has nothing to do with AIDS awareness and education, or the availablity of treatment? Your standards for judging "miracles" must be disturbingly low.

If you know that most computer technicians were Christian, would you claim the Internet was an instrument of God?

It is the same with science. When they came up with a way to end the Polio epidimic, it did more then put a few feathers in their cap to gain them acceptance.

Well-deserved feathers, I might add. Polio, Smallpox, Scarlet Fever, Measles, The Black Plague.... What effect did laying of hands and grovelling before God have on these pestilences?

Germs and virii cannot hear prayers. "We can pray over the cholera victim, or we can administer 500 milligrams of tetracycline every 12 hours." --Carl Sagan.

Of course, you can do both and watch the disease go away. But which, the prayer or the medicine, did the job?

Find a reputable doctor who favors prayers over antibiotics, and has a less than 50% mortality rate, and we'll talk some more.

*RANT MODE OFF*

 

[Nathan Poe]

Originally posted by seesaw
Well if creation is a theory than it can't have facts. No theory has facts.

Not to nit-pick, but theories do have facts. For example, if I see a chessboard laying out in the middle of a game with nobody around, I can make theories and hypotheses based on the following observable facts:

FACT: I can see the current position of the chessboard.

FACT: I know the rules of chess.

FACT: I see the white king is in check.

Based on these facts which are not in dispute, and assuming that these players were playing by the rules, I can make a few theories and hypotheses.

THEORY: Since white is in check, I know that it's his move.

Based on the facts, that must be true.

HYPOTHESIS: Since the rules say white must get out of check, I can look at the board and guess what white's next move will be.

When the players return, I can watch the game continue and see if my hypothesis is true. The more I know (facts) the more likely I'll be right.

HYPOTHESIS: Since black's last move put white in check, I can look at the board make a reasonable guess what that move was.

Even if the players don't return, the facts only present a limited number of possible legal moves. I can look at the facts and pick the most logical possibility. Again, the better I know the facts, the more likely I'll be right.

If I'm really on the ball, I can look at the current board and hypothesize even further back. Some chess Grandmasters can look at an endgame and logically reconstruct the entire match all the way back to the first move, based solely on their observations and knowledge of the rules (which are facts).

 

 

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by Nathan Poe
Not to nit-pick, but theories do have facts. For example, if I see a chessboard laying out in the middle of a game with nobody around, I can make theories and hypotheses based on the following observable facts:

FACT: I can see the current position of the chessboard.

FACT: I know the rules of chess.

FACT: I see the white king is in check.

Based on these facts which are not in dispute, and assuming that these players were playing by the rules, I can make a few theories and hypotheses.

THEORY: Since white is in check, I know that it's his move.

Based on the facts, that must be true.

HYPOTHESIS: Since the rules say white must get out of check, I can look at the board and guess what white's next move will be.

When the players return, I can watch the game continue and see if my hypothesis is true. The more I know (facts) the more likely I'll be right.

HYPOTHESIS: Since black's last move put white in check, I can look at the board make a reasonable guess what that move was.

Even if the players don't return, the facts only present a limited number of possible legal moves. I can look at the facts and pick the most logical possibility. Again, the better I know the facts, the more likely I'll be right.

If I'm really on the ball, I can look at the current board and hypothesize even further back. Some chess Grandmasters can look at an endgame and logically reconstruct the entire match all the way back to the first move, based solely on their observations and knowledge of the rules (which are facts).

 

 

Yeah you are right. Facts/evidence and observations is what science is sorry I didn't read what he said good enough.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by Nathan Poe
Oh, now this is so sad it's funny...
*RANT MODE ON*

Glad your having fun

My point is that the Christian "authorities" may not have been in place 2000 years ago, but have been ever since.

Me thinks we have a double standard here. Christians are suppose to know everything there ever was about science in order to have a dialoge, but you guys do not want to apply the same standard when it comes to understanding church history. But quickly, Christians were presecuted, fed to the lions and all of that for the first 300 years or so. Then sometime after 300 ad, Christianity became the "official" religion of the government in charge at that time.

 

Do you see what happens when people disagreed with the Church?

People who disagree with the church usually get ex communicated.

If you believe that miracles=power=truth, fine, then might makes right. Perfrom a miracle and we'll talk some more.

I would be happy for you to come to our Friday night miracle and healing service. But to make things clear, WE do not perform the miracles and the healings, God does. We are only observers. We are allowed the priviledge of being a observer because we choose to live Holy and Sanctified lives before God.

http://www.ernestangley.org/

 

Tell me about the last miracle you and your friends witnessed and we'll talk some more. 

We not only believe in miracles, we depend upon them. It is a way of life for us. But to give you an example. A few weeks ago I was talking to my dad. He is 84 years old. He said he just did not think he was going to live much longer and that he was so very tired. So I prayed and I saw something leave him and he was fine after that. He was back tap, tap,tapping on his typewriter. He mostly writes editorials, but he has articals that have been published in medical journals. In his life time he has a note book around 2 inches thick of things that he has had published and he is still typing away.

1. Present one credible documented case of someone having AIDS and being "cured."

We only go by the letters of testimony that people send to us. Although as I said our camara men are ready to go any time, anywhere in the world to capture the miralces on Video. The most amazing from a visual standpoint is the guy who received his sight. It is just amazing the way the appearance of his eyes change right there on the video. We use to use that one to open our weekly program with. Then also when the kids receive the ability to be able to talk is amazing also. They of course still have to learn how to talk, but you can teach them a few words right off, like "baby" or "Jesus" or something like that.

2. Prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was the "followers of creation," as you call them, that were responsible.

We are not responsible for anything. We are only observers. We report on what we have seen God do.

3. If the "followers of creation" can cure AIDS, then by all means, they should be able to do it again in a hospital setting.

We have two associate pastors who are more than happy to go on visitation at the hospital if you have a person there that you would like for us to visit.  

Meet these three scientific criteria and we'll talk some more.

"scientific criteria" ? That sounds like you want me to do your work for you. If your interested you will check it out, if your not interested, you won't. It could be our weekly program is on in your area, we are on 1/3 of the TV sets in the world. Tune us in. If we are not on right now, we may soon be on in your area.

There actually is a "criteria" that if people meet that "criteria" God will heal them. But that is a little bit complicated to get into right now.

And you want to give the miraculous healings performed by the "followes of creation" the credit for this? 

Absolutely not, we get credit for nothing. We are observers and we report on what we observe. But I can build a case that the miracles do substantiate the teaching.

Are you sure that the drop in numbers has nothing to do with AIDS awareness and education, or the availablity of treatment?

Everyone should share in the credit. We are all working to try and bring the Aids problem to a end. I am happy there is progress. But there is no availability of treatment, they simply can not afford that in Africa. That is a American luxery.  

If you know that most computer technicians were Christian, would you claim the Internet was an instrument of God?

Wow, lots of questions, this is fun. We believe that the rapid increase in communication technology was designed by God to get the good news out to the whole world fast. There are people who use the technology for good and for what it was intended to be used for, and there are those who of course corrupt what God intended for good.

Well-deserved feathers, I might add. Polio, Smallpox, Scarlet Fever, Measles, The Black Plague.... What effect did laying of hands and grovelling before God have on these pestilences?

"Grovelling"? I do not know what effect prayer had on that. My dad was a physician for 50 years so he gave lots of shots to lots of children.

Find a reputable doctor who favors prayers over antibiotics, and has a less than 50% mortality rate, and we'll talk some more.

Prayer requires faith and most people do not have that sort of faith. God in His ultimate mercy has given us good doctors and good medicine to help people who are weak or immature in their faith. But sooner or later He expects people to grow up and mature and so as people get older there seems to be less and less doctors are able to do to help them.

If you depend upon man you may buy some time, but your going to die. If you depend on God you will live.

*RANT MODE OFF*

What frequancy are you on? Thanks, JohnR7

 

[Nathan Poe]

Originally posted by seesaw
Yeah you are right. Facts/evidence and observations is what science is sorry I didn't read what he said good enough.

Hey no prob. Science is always correcting itself. Sorry if I went overboard with the chess analogy, but it just popped into my head while playing Chessmaster in another window. I needed to write it all down before I lost the idea.

 

[lithium.]

LOL its cool the chess analogy was ok.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by seesaw
Lets me change this. If creation is fact where is the facts/evidence. There is none so it can't be fact.

Where is the evidence of creation? LOL you guys are really funny. Do you live in a big city or something? If so I would invite you to visit your nearest park system so you can witness for yourself the evidence of creation. Just remember the only reason you can use your eyes to witness creation is that your eyes were created in a way that they could observe the created world. The world is the way the world is, only because your eyes see it that way. For example we do not actually view a item directly, we only view the light that reflects from that item. Turn off the lights and tell me what you can see.

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by JohnR7
Where is the evidence of creation? LOL you guys are really funny. Do you live in a big city or something? If so I would invite you to visit your nearest park system so you can witness for yourself the evidence of creation. Just remember the only reason you can use your eyes to witness creation is that your eyes were created in a way that they could observe the created world. The world is the way the world is, only because your eyes see it that way. For example we do not actually view a item directly, we only view the light that reflects from that item. Turn off the lights and tell me what you can see.

No what I find funny is how people say god made everything. Tree's and forests, and parks have nothing to do with god or gods. There is no evidence of god, or creation, or if there was it would have been accepted by the science community. You can believe that god created everything but it doens't change the fact that there is no evidence for creation at all. Even grass did you know that grass is some what new alot of people think that grass has been on this planet before the dinosaurs I believe it came after the dinosaurs.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by OneLargeToe
Creationism is in the same boat.  It makes no predictions, is not testable

You guys have so much to learn. The universe is not a wind up toy where God lets it go and then judges everyone at the end to see how they did.

Before Adam fell, God use to come down in the cool of the day and they would talk. It is that kind of a relationship that our creator wants to have with us.

Bette Midler may talk about how God is off in a distance watching her. But Christians have a much more personal intimate relationship with God than that. Perhaps Einstein did not believe in a personal God, but he did believe in a God that we could searchout and know a little bit about.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by seesaw
Tree's and forests, and parks have nothing to do with god or gods. 

If God did not create the trees and the forest, then where did they come from? While your at it, tell me where your house, car and shoes came from, if someone did not build or create them.

You would have a easier time to prove that you do not exist, then to try and prove God does not exist. Because if you exist, then there had to have been someone create you. If you do not exist, then perhaps there was no creator. After all, you do not need a creator for something that does not exist.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Originally posted by JohnR7
Glad your having fun

I always have fun. You've been providing me with much amusement.

Me thinks we have a double standard here. Christians are suppose to know everything there ever was about science in order to have a dialoge, but you guys do not want to apply the same standard when it comes to understanding church history. But quickly, Christians were presecuted, fed to the lions and all of that for the first 300 years or so. Then sometime after 300 ad, Christianity became the "official" religion of the government in charge at that time.

I'm not the one setting a double standard. Some Christians (not all, I'll admit) claim to know everything, or at least everything worth knowing, because they have the inspired Word of God to tell them. After all, they know "ABSOLUTE TRUTH," and the rest of us poor slobs don't.

And I am quite aware of early church history. Yes, they were persecuted. Then they came to power. And like all who come to power, they abused it. It wasn't long before they were doing the persecuting themselves.

People who disagree with the church usually get ex communicated.

Are you familiar with William Tyndale? He was one of the first men to translate the Bible into English. His translation was the basis for the 1611 King James Bible. He was hunted, persecuted, tortured, and executed. By whom, you ask? The church. They were afraid that a Bible in the language of the common people would cause dissenting opinions. So Christians killed other Christians in the name of Christianity to keep Christians from knowing the words of Christ.

And Tyndale was one of their own. What has the church done to those who they clearly considered enemies?

But I digress...

I would be happy for you to come to our Friday night miracle and healing service. But to make things clear, WE do not perform the miracles and the healings, God does. We are only observers. We are allowed the priviledge of being a observer because we choose to live Holy and Sanctified lives before God.

http://www.ernestangley.org/

"Goddidit." I hope you've been on this board long enough to realize that this explanation won't cut it here.

I checked the website; wasn't impressed.

We not only believe in miracles, we depend upon them. It is a way of life for us. But to give you an example. A few weeks ago I was talking to my dad. He is 84 years old. He said he just did not think he was going to live much longer and that he was so very tired. So I prayed and I saw something leave him and he was fine after that. He was back tap, tap,tapping on his typewriter. He mostly writes editorials, but he has articals that have been published in medical journals. In his life time he has a note book around 2 inches thick of things that he has had published and he is still typing away.

I am happy to hear that your father is feeling better, but all you've proven is that He was not feeling well, then you prayed, then he got better. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Would he have gotten better had you not prayed?

as for depending on miracles, I hope your not referring to the realvideo from that website. Faith Healing has been done to death, and these examples are only slightly more credible than selling the Brooklyn Bridge.

We only go by the letters of testimony that people send to us. Although as I said our camara men are ready to go any time, anywhere in the world to capture the miralces on Video. The most amazing from a visual standpoint is the guy who received his sight. It is just amazing the way the appearance of his eyes change right there on the video. We use to use that one to open our weekly program with. Then also when the kids receive the ability to be able to talk is amazing also. They of course still have to learn how to talk, but you can teach them a few words right off, like "baby" or "Jesus" or something like that.

Letters of testimony are proof? Then let me take this oppertunity to testify that I have a half-dozen invisible gremlins living in my bathtub. Care to send a cameraman?

We are not responsible for anything. We are only observers. We report on what we have seen God do.

"Goddidit" again.

We have two associate pastors who are more than happy to go on visitation at the hospital if you have a person there that you would like for us to visit. 

Not me personally, but why haven't you gone public with your miracle AIDS cure? 

"scientific criteria" ? That sounds like you want me to do your work for you. If your interested you will check it out, if your not interested, you won't. It could be our weekly program is on in your area, we are on 1/3 of the TV sets in the world. Tune us in. If we are not on right now, we may soon be on in your area.

No, I want you to do your work for you. You're the one making the extraordinary claims. I'm just asking for evidence. What you've offered so far on this thread are a few anecdotes and a horde of strawmen.

There actually is a "criteria" that if people meet that "criteria" God will heal them. But that is a little bit complicated to get into right now.

Special Pleading fallacy. If you can't/won't explain it, don't bother bringing it up. 

Absolutely not, we get credit for nothing. We are observers and we report on what we observe. But I can build a case that the miracles do substantiate the teaching.

But you haven't observed a genuine, uncontested miracle yet. And you haven't yet witnessed one performed under controlled (laboratory/hospital) conditions. 

Everyone should share in the credit. We are all working to try and bring the Aids problem to a end. I am happy there is progress. But there is no availability of treatment, they simply can not afford that in Africa. That is a American luxery.

And America gives billions in foreign aid to Africa to help them. Surely there have been some results. Or "Goddidit" yet again?  

Wow, lots of questions, this is fun. We believe that the rapid increase in communication technology was designed by God to get the good news out to the whole world fast. There are people who use the technology for good and for what it was intended to be used for, and there are those who of course corrupt what God intended for good.

So God does run the Internet. Well, better Him than Bill Gates, I suppose. 

"Grovelling"? I do not know what effect prayer had on that. My dad was a physician for 50 years so he gave lots of shots to lots of children.

And did he ever decide that this child didn't need a shot because faith would keep him/her healthy instead?

Prayer requires faith and most people do not have that sort of faith. God in His ultimate mercy has given us good doctors and good medicine to help people who are weak or immature in their faith. But sooner or later He expects people to grow up and mature and so as people get older there seems to be less and less doctors are able to do to help them.

If you depend upon man you may buy some time, but your going to die. If you depend on God you will live.

Sounds to me like you don't believe in the germ theory of disease. "Doctors are for people who don't have good faith"? Don't Christians get sick too?

By the way, I checked out some of your earlier posts. You claim that Darwin was full of nonsense, and back it up with posts like this one?

Originally posted by JohnR7

Evolution is a debate against Creationism. If there was no debate, then you would no longer have the "theory" of evolution. Darwin took the theory of natural selection and mixed a lot of nonsense in with it, then he half heartedly tried to use it as a weapon or a debate against Creationism.

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" --Matthew 7:3

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by JohnR7
If God did not create the trees and the forest, then where did they come from? While your at it, tell me where your house, car and shoes came from, if someone did not build or create them.

You would have a easier time to prove that you do not exist, then to try and prove God does not exist. Because if you exist, then there had to have been someone create you. If you do not exist, then perhaps there was no creator. After all, you do not need a creator for something that does not exist.

I might be wrong but if I am someone else that knows evolution of plants, and trees let me know.

But bacteria is what started the evolution of all plants on earth. I found a link about plant and tree evolution I don't know much about plant evolution But this link tells you what you need to know.


http://veghome.ucdavis.edu/classes/plb12/evolutn.htm

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by seesaw
But bacteria is what started the evolution of all plants on earth. 

What does bacteria have to do with plants and trees? Bacteria helps dead matter to decay, so they can be used as fertilizer, is that what you mean?

Originally posted by seesaw
I found a link about plant and tree evolution I don't know much about plant evolution 

According to you link bacteria: "Probably developed into chloroplasts of eucaryotes through symbiosis" Where is the evidence for this? Can you take bacteria and do something to cause it to evolve into a tree in the lab? If so are the synthetic trees you create undistinguishable from natural trees?

Bacteria pre existed before grass and trees, simply because bacteria requires less light. The days were shorter because the earth had not reached a spin down where where there was enough light to produce grass and trees yet.

Then animals came later, because you need plant life to create oxygen for the animals to breath. Before deforestation there was a fairly equal amount of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Because the animals turn the oxygen back into carbon dioxide for the plants.

There is bacteria in the tummys of animals to help their food break down so it can be used as energy. Everything I know about bacteria shows it does the opposite of what your saying it does. Have you heard about the flesh eating bacteria that can even cause living tissue to break down at an amazingly fast rate?

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by Nathan Poe
I'm not the one setting a double standard. Some Christians (not all, I'll admit) claim to know everything, or at least everything worth knowing,

Theophilus said if ten thousand tongues told the story for 10,000 years, they could not tell all there was about creation. John the Beloved tells us that all the books in the world could not tell us all there was to know about the creator. Paul tells us that the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God.

And I am quite aware of early church history. 

Are you aware of Martin Luthers teaching on the visable world church as compared to the true church of Christ? 

I am happy to hear that your father is feeling better, but all you've proven is that He was not feeling well, then you prayed, then he got better. Would he have gotten better had you not prayed? 

There have been enough double blind studies done by now to show that prayer is benificial in the healing process. Even when the patient does not know they are being prayed for and the people who pray do not know the person that they are praying for. Also, what makes it a double blind study is the doctors do not know who or in some cases even if someone is getting prayer.

I hope your not referring to the realvideo from that website.

There is no realvideo on the web site. Only the audio is on file. I offered to put the video on the internet for the ministry but was told that we want to preach the gospel to the poor not to the rich. Right now broad band connection to the internet is only for the rich. Right now research is being done toward putting the material on Disks.

Letters of testimony are proof?

Your more then welcome to go to Africa or come to our Friday night healing service. You will see lots of miracles. God is ready, willing and able to show Himself to those who are seeking to know him. For those who want to remain blind and in darkness, He will allow them to do that also. As the Bible says: seek and you shall find. If you do not seek after God, then your not going to find Him.  

 If you can't/won't explain it, don't bother bringing it up. 

If your going to stand there with your eyes closed and your ears covered up so you can not hear. Don't blame me that your deaf, dumb, blind and lamb.

But you haven't observed a genuine, uncontested miracle yet. And you haven't yet witnessed one performed under controlled (laboratory/hospital) conditions. 

What are you talking about? I see miracles all the time. And so do most honest medical doctors see miracles. The honest ones can not explain them, the dishonest ones try to explain them away. Some try to take credit for them.

If you deny the miracles that is blasphemy and that is the unforgiveable sin. Or at least your well on the road to blasphemy. But it is not to late for you to get off of the way that leads to destruction. Jesus is the new and the living way, He is life, health and healing. You seem to think this is about winning an arguement. What if you think you win the arguement and end up losing your soul to destruction?  [/QUOTE]

 

[LiveFreeOrDie]

JohnR7 wrote:
I would be happy for you to come to our Friday night miracle and healing service. But to make things clear, WE do not perform the miracles and the healings, God does. We are only observers. We are allowed the priviledge of being a observer because we choose to live Holy and Sanctified lives before God.

There's a million bucks in it for your church if you can really demonstrate this.

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by JohnR7
What does bacteria have to do with plants and trees? Bacteria helps dead matter to decay, so they can be used as fertilizer, is that what you mean?



According to you link bacteria: "Probably developed into chloroplasts of eucaryotes through symbiosis" Where is the evidence for this? Can you take bacteria and do something to cause it to evolve into a tree in the lab? If so are the synthetic trees you create undistinguishable from natural trees?

Bacteria pre existed before grass and trees, simply because bacteria requires less light. The days were shorter because the earth had not reached a spin down where where there was enough light to produce grass and trees yet.

Then animals came later, because you need plant life to create oxygen for the animals to breath. Before deforestation there was a fairly equal amount of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Because the animals turn the oxygen back into carbon dioxide for the plants.

There is bacteria in the tummys of animals to help their food break down so it can be used as energy. Everything I know about bacteria shows it does the opposite of what your saying it does. Have you heard about the flesh eating bacteria that can even cause living tissue to break down at an amazingly fast rate?

Like I said I don't know alot about plant evolution. But Bacteria helped start the evolution of all plants and trees I believe.


No wait I know what happened GOD DID IT.

 

[DNAunion]

JohnR7: According to you link bacteria: "Probably developed into chloroplasts of eucaryotes through symbiosis" Where is the evidence for this?

DNAunion: Four pieces of evidence I can think of are as follows:

(1) chloroplasts have their own genome (i.e., their own DNA, which is separated spatially from the DNA in the nucleus of the cell)

(2) chloroplasts can replicate independently of the "host" cell

(3) chloroplasts are about the same size as some bacteria

(4) chloroplasts carry out photosynthesis much like cyanobacteria.

These four facts together suggest that chloroplasts were once free living cyanobacteria that were then engulfed (phagocytized) by other free living cells, but instead of their being "digested", they formed a symbiotic relationship with their host cell. Apparently, the chloroplasts helped the host cell by providing another means of energy production, and the host cells - if nothing else - provided protection for the endosymbionts (I can't remember the real benefit they provided, but since they were capable of consuming the proto-chloroplasts, the host cells must have been the larger and "stronger" of the two). Over time, the two became more and more dependent upon each other as redundant features and information were stripped away. For example, chloroplasts cannot survive on their own anymore because some of their genes migrated to the nucleus.