Does it Apply To God To Transform into a Flesh or Any Image ?

Jesus was God and is God, whether you like it or not, whether what Muhammad conjectured about Him, conversation is over. Your yelling at people won't make your point.

Think about how Mary happened to enter trinity, while Christians never worshipped her in the Trinity. Think about how you people think Christians worship 3 gods when they actually worship ONE God. And then think about how these conjectures ended up in the Quran, supposedly the book of Allah Almighty.

Q Logic said:

YOU CHRISTIANS ! READ WHAT YOU WANNA HEAR ! AND LEAVE THE REST

LIKE IT DOESN'T EXSIST !!!

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I have respect in the Quran, it's people's interpretations that are warped. You are obviously new and fervent, but you need to cool it down a bit. That sword you carry may hurt someone someday, maybe yourself. You need to be a bit more open to different interpretations if you want to be in God's kingdom.

You're not paying attention to the Quran when you hear. You're paying attention to what you hear other Muslims say only. Let the Quran speak to your spirit, not people.

HomeBound said:

If at all 1 contains the only logic in your post. The rest is a sad attempt to deny Jesus as one with God. You couldn't possibly know. Stop prettending to know because of some words written on leaves, bones, and whatever scraps they wrote on. God is without beginning, without end and without limit.

Just, just... stop. You're trying too hard.

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I'm quoting my own post because I want to apologize to q-logic. I didn't mean to be so single-minded when posting. I have always held to the belief that we all follow what we came to earth to follow. The trinity is something I struggle with (because of how the Bible is written) I didn't indicate this struggle in this post because of pride and felt someone was attacking my beliefs. I didn't take into consideration that if I struggled with this belief (which I am still not too certain on) then others might have a problem with it as well, and that's ok.

I am a creation of God, who doesn't have all the answers. The Bible doesn't have all the answers, and neither does the Quran. These books may speak to us on a spiritual level, but my spirit might not be evolved enough to draw all the truths from these texts. There is some of the Bible that I have to admit, doesn't hold too well in my heart because I wasn't born on day 1 along with Adam. The same holds true with the Quran. If these books were 100% flawless in their present form, and how they are presented by God, there wouldn't be so much division within our beliefs. My heart and spirit will not allow me to accept an all loving God that will throw people into eternal torment for not beliving in the testimony of Jesus. My heart and spirit will also not allow me to accept a God that tells us to Kill unbelievers that oppress us.

I believe that Jesus and his testimony is the way to our getting into the Kingdom. Jesus taught us of a Loving God that dwells within us. God saw that there were people that were just not willing to accept someone elses beliefs, knowing that people pervert even his word. and loves us so much that he may have given a revelation to Mohammad. I do believe that some of what people claim Mohammad said, might have been fabricated for political reasons. The same holds true to the Bible.

There is one simple and powerful belief that I hold to be true, and it supercedes all the other man made doctrines. A belief that if believed and strengthened in our world, it will ensure all the joining God in his kingdom.

LOVE... nothing else, just an unconditional love for our fellow man. Love for our enemies as well as friends. It's what Jesus taught us. We so often get away from this love because of the nature of our flesh, and being in this world, but it's why we're here. To strengthen that love. God is LOVE. I mean God is truly unconditional love. Without God, love would not exist. The love we feel for our brother is proof of the existence of God. More and more people will come to realize this simple yet profound truth.

I had decided not to respond further to this thread because of the way the "discussion" was going i.e. Q Logic makes assertions about what Christians believe, then when Christians make reasoned arguments telling him he is mistaken in his understanding of Christian theology he ignores them and unleashes an attack on Christianity (calling it blasphemous). However I feel compelled to do so.

Q Logic - you asked for a straightforward statement from Jesus that He is God. Here are a few

John 8

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

"I am" is one of the names of God

Exodus 3
14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

John 10
30I and the Father are one."

John 12

44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.

John 14
7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

I also agree with HomeBounds penultimate post - you need to calm down a bit - accusing people of blasphemy in such a way will earn you few friends and no converts. Remember you are the sole poster from your faith on this thread and it does Islam no favours to be associated with such tactics.

Chris, are you aware that he is repeating the same story over and over again, despite the fact we explaining it to him, what is this called, if it is not trolling?

Why don't he just see the paganistic rituals adapted into islam? Someone call the mod and lock this thread, it is not going anywhere.

Kas said:

The logic here does not follow, Q logic, GOD being what He is can become flesh should he so wish! We do not place limmits on GOD and believe that whatever GOD does is becoming of His divinity. GOD is eternal, and His incarnation does not affect upon that.

Tell me though as a Moslem, is Allah one, like one pencil or is it a different kind of one, I mean as a moslem, do you believe that your understanding of one, you imagining of how 'one' should be, is gonna be like GOD actually is!?

Kas.

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Bushmaster said:

Bah! Go read surah Ta'ha... God can be/speak thru a burning bush but can not be/speak thru a man...

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Kas said:

Wicked, I wopuld like to press home the point, tell me Q-Logic, is this what you believe that GOD spoke in a bush! if so, could he not then become a man should he so wish!

Bless you Bushmaster!

Peace,
Kas.

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I think there is a misunderstanding here. when we say God can not transform into another form or can not be a human, it is not because God is incapable of it or limiting God. Because it is illogical.

It is true that we cannot understand God totally but it does not mean that we cannot understand anything about God. God gave us enough intelligence to see the difference between a human and God. Otherwise we would not be responsible of believing in God. When we say God is one then we really mean ONE (not three). If somethin is a human then it is not a God and if something is a God then it is not a human. I can see that difference.
You are talking as if we cannot understand anything about God. And it gives you freedom to speak anything about God since we cannot understand anything. There is a bad logic game here to confuse peoples' minds.

Upto a limit, there is something we can understand about God. And it is by making comparison with ourselves. Well, it is how we learn, by comparing, first by ourselves. God gave us some limited characteristics to be able to understand God some. And we know that, since He is God , He is beyond, superior than these.

A simple example is when someone had some kind of power in this world, he or she can sence how the power 'tastes' (especially when it ended). So one can get some undertanding about the Power of God Who rules all the universe. A perfect example: a mother's or father's love to her or his child. And we know that God loves each of us whatever we do........
This is how we understand God.

It is clear until here I hope but I want to tell something more. When we talk someone about God and that God created us all, of course, that person will ask us How God created us all, whish we can never understand. To explain it some and to show that it is possible we can say that 'It is like you have some children.' But everybody knows that it is not really like that it is a figurative meaning. I think, to explain this concept to people, Jesus(uhbp) said that God is like our father and we are like His children. It has started as FIGURATIVE meaning but later you christians considered it REAL. And considered God as a human also invented a mother. Most probably, you are effected by old Greek culture. Additionally, in Kur'an "God is speaking" or "God's hand" are figurative meaning, only kids consider it real. This a way to explain the subject.

It is true that we cannot understand God totally but it does not mean that we cannot understand anything about God. God gave us enough intelligence to see the difference between a human and God.

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Errorneous conjecture. Nowhere in the Bible states that a man can become a god. This is not what the Bible teaches and Muslims must acknowledge this fact before confusing themselves again. The Bible states clearly that God came to us as a man and as far as the attributes of God is concerned is it impossible for an omnipotent God to do so? If no then Muslims must admit that Allah is impotent and CANNOT come as a man because he does not have the omnipotent ability to do so.

final testament said:

I think there is a misunderstanding here. when we say God can not transform into another form or can not be a human, it is not because God is incapable of it or limiting God. Because it is illogical.

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This statement gives you away so the rest of your message is not really worth responding. Bible points this out in ISAIAH 55:8 Don't seek your own logic in God.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

final testament said:

I think there is a misunderstanding here. when we say God can not transform into another form or can not be a human, it is not because God is incapable of it or limiting God. Because it is illogical.

It is true that we cannot understand God totally but it does not mean that we cannot understand anything about God. God gave us enough intelligence to see the difference between a human and God. Otherwise we would not be responsible of believing in God. When we say God is one then we really mean ONE (not three). If somethin is a human then it is not a God and if something is a God then it is not a human. I can see that difference.
You are talking as if we cannot understand anything about God. And it gives you freedom to speak anything about God since we cannot understand anything. There is a bad logic game here to confuse peoples' minds.

Upto a limit, there is something we can understand about God. And it is by making comparison with ourselves. Well, it is how we learn, by comparing, first by ourselves. God gave us some limited characteristics to be able to understand God some. And we know that, since He is God , He is beyond, superior than these.

A simple example is when someone had some kind of power in this world, he or she can sence how the power 'tastes' (especially when it ended). So one can get some undertanding about the Power of God Who rules all the universe. A perfect example: a mother's or father's love to her or his child. And we know that God loves each of us whatever we do........
This is how we understand God.

It is clear until here I hope but I want to tell something more. When we talk someone about God and that God created us all, of course, that person will ask us How God created us all, whish we can never understand. To explain it some and to show that it is possible we can say that 'It is like you have some children.' But everybody knows that it is not really like that it is a figurative meaning. I think, to explain this concept to people, Jesus(uhbp) said that God is like our father and we are like His children. It has started as FIGURATIVE meaning but later you christians considered it REAL. And considered God as a human also invented a mother. Most probably, you are effected by old Greek culture. Additionally, in Kur'an "God is speaking" or "God's hand" are figurative meaning, only kids consider it real. This a way to explain the subject.

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WELL NO...this is a logic from within Islamic terms of reference, we Christians do not hold that is illogical that GOD can do a thing, we do find it unbecoming of a created being to say what is logical for GOD to do and what is not. I think Q logic is sadly ignorant of much o Christian teaching, if he was more learned on the subject I believe that he would less of a problem, as many of his objections are based on 'Islamic perceptions of Christianity' not on anything authentically Christian. So does this mean that you agree that GOD could become a human should He so wish? Glory to GOD in the highest!

When we Christian say we believe in one GOD, we really do mean one and no more and no less! Their is nothingmore we can say, you iether believe we arer out to lie to you, or you accept what we say at face value, please, do you believe Christians are lieing when they say they believe in one GOD?

I can see the difference between a human and GOD; and GOD who has become a man! Those difference are quite clear to me.

Upto a limit, there is something we can understand about God. And it is by making comparison with ourselves.

This is beginning to touch on the area of man being created in the image of GOD, without which absolutely no comparison could be made. Though we agree that GOD is much greater than any of His creations. No on the contrary, Christians were at pains to keep clear of those parts of greek culture not compatible with our faith. However, if we would like to go into historical contingencies, I'm sure we could talk of how much pagan arab culture and practice Islam is rooted in!

Peace,
Kas.

Kas said:

WELL NO...this is a logic from within Islamic terms of reference, we Christians do not hold that is illogical that GOD can do a thing, ...................
Kas.

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I consider the logic within the subject itself. I didnt give you any example from Kur'an or hadith. I am using my reasoning*. Your logic is not self-consistent, it contradicts to itself.
Simply like this.If a problem or idea starts with 'a is not equal to b' and then at the end of some calculation or reasoning It gets a result 'a is equal to b'; it means there is something wrong somehere.

If you say God is Ethernal, He cannot die.
If you say God controls everything, He cannot be controled by time.
If you say God knows everything, He doesnt ask anyone for something.
If God is self-existing, He cannot need Mary(uhbp) to be born........
'God can become a human' is a wrong axiom. Something cannot be both human and God. It cannot carry both God greatness and human weaknesses The correct sentence is 'God creates the human'. In that sence, our sprit reaches to God, we are a part of God. so are everything in universe. Without God, we are not even defined. You take this special for Jesus(uhbp), and use it to make him God.

* I see that you say I cannot make reasoning about God. But I make reasoning what He created not God.If God gave us intelligence, it is because He wants us to find Him. If He gave us eyes to see and then created a beautiful universe, it is not to make starwars, it is to see Him through what He created. If we cannot consider what are the Atributes of God,The Creator, The Compassionate, The Merciful, The Holy, The All-knowing.....so why did He give each of us a brain, and sends us His messengers to tell Him. You just escape from what I say by 'we cannot make reasoning about God' and later say 'God can be a human form' as if you totally understood the form God.

Christians do belive in one God. Who says that? You try to cover your own mistake you did hundred years ago. Maybe, some smart christians try to form trinity into a "reasonable" form with some confusing logic games. Since a normal person cannot handle this hard ideas after a level, they accept it as it is without reasoning.

Whatever we say whether Islam or Christians are effected by other culture cannot be discussed here, because it requires an expert on history and lots of books to read. All I see the similarity between modern culture and old Greek culture. That's all.
As long as, it is written in Kur'an
"5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).",
1.5 the Opening. translated by Hilali and Khan http://www.kuran.gen.tr
It is stupid to say that Islam effected by arab pagans, while you still pray to pictures

peace..

Q Logic said:

I said a Striaght Forward statement made By The Lips of Jesus That He Said

he Was God .! You Failed To Answer .

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I see, unless Jesus has used a form of words approved by you you won't accept it! I could apply the same principle to the Koran!

Q Logic said:

For Example Jesus Spoke , Hebrew and Aramaic , if He was God

Then He Would know All Languages , but he was Limited to Two Languages.

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Interesting - how do you know this? Jesus certainly spoke Aramaic but where in the Bible does it say He only spoke Hebrew and Aramaic?

Hi all!

Please allow me to present a[n orthodox] Jewish view.

We categorically reject the notion of a triune God as ill-disguised tritheism. Our great 9th century CE sage, Saadya Gaon (who lived in what is now Iraq, see http://tinyurl.com/3yjtd) said that to believe that God is triune is to define & limit Him by the physical concepts of quantity and number. To believe in a truly transcendant God (that is who transcends all physical constructs/concepts, including those of quantity & number), who is Wholly Other, one must believe that He is One. Since He created all things corporeal, He Himself cannot be, or have been at one time, corporeal; to believe otherwise, Saadya Gaon taught, is to define Him by, & limit Him to, the corporeal form that he presumably chose. I have heard many Christians use the analogy that the three "persons" of the trinity are all one the same way that I, ferinstance, am a father to my boys, a husband to my wife, a son to my parents & a brother to my brother. I would reply that this is a human analogy & as such, it cannot be applied to a transcendant, wholly other, God. The same goes for the ice-water-steam analogy. H20 is a created, physical, corporeal thing & as such, cannot be applied to a transcendant, wholly other, God. The uniqueness of One is that it presumes no self-division. Like the smallest whole number that it, in fact, is, it cannot be broken down into constituent parts. Whereas 3 = 1 + 1+ 1, 1 (simply) = 1; it is in this sense that 1 is transcendant in a way that 3 is not. We believe that the Oneness of God is unbounded both internally & externally.

Thus, vis-a-vis the substance of this thread, our views are far more akin to those of our Islamic cousins than to those of our Christian ones.

My personal view is that the early Christians (who were Jews) found the (originally) Jewish concept of a transcendant, wholly other God too difficult to grasp and recast Him in our image, i.e. so they made Him flesh & gave Him our form and made Him much easier to relate to. It seems to me that this is paganism with a non-pagan veneer. (I mean no offense to anyone, God forbid!)

Be well!

ssv

Howzat?

final testament said:

If you say God is Ethernal, He cannot die.
If you say God controls everything, He cannot be controled by time.
If you say God knows everything, He doesnt ask anyone for something.
If God is self-existing, He cannot need Mary(uhbp) to be born........
'God can become a human' is a wrong axiom. Something cannot be both human and God. It cannot carry both God greatness and human weaknesses The correct sentence is 'God creates the human'. In that sence, our sprit reaches to God, we are a part of God. so are everything in universe. Without God, we are not even defined. You take this special for Jesus(uhbp), and use it to make him God.

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So says islamic tavhid... Non-sense. You can not understand God (Trinity) using islamic tavhid. You can not interpret Christian data according to the rules of islam ... Here is your logic, "If Jesus is God, God is Jesus" and the rest comes about eating sleeping all that. However, Jesus (during his life on Earth) is from God and Divine therefore He is "God". If you get it all backwards and conclude "God is Jesus", to be more specific "all that there is to God is Jesus" you are wrong, in that case there wouldn't be a Blessed Trinity, there wouldn't be no God tThe Father, or Holy Spirit. If that was the case, it wouldn't be necessary to mention God The Father or The Spirit. Read John 1:1-5 again. You can NOT interpret the data you derive from Trinity using islamic tavhid. The creator is the FATHER, JESUS is the WORD and ACTION. JESUS had the SPIRIT from the FATHER during His life on Earth. So in short, God can and will do all you listed above. He is not limited for what you think of Him.

Christians do belive in one God. Who says that?

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The Bible!

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Enough?

You try to cover your own mistake you did hundred years ago. Maybe, some smart christians try to form trinity into a "reasonable" form with some confusing logic games. Since a normal person cannot handle this hard ideas after a level, they accept it as it is without reasoning.

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What mistake 100 years ago? Do Christians worship three Gods? The answer is no! Christians do not worship three Gods! Christians believe in three distinct personages being the one eternal God, but some do not understand this and have their own way of interpretation. To say Christians worship three Gods one must be able to prove that Christians believe in three Gods. Biblically speaking Christians believe the Bible teaches there is one eternal God in nature who has been revealed through the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is identified as being God. (1 Peter 1:2) Most have no problems with the Bible teaching that the Father is identified as God, but when it comes to Jesus and the Holy Spirit there is contention. The Son (Jesus) is identified as being God. (John 1:1-3&14-18, John 20:28-29, 1 John 1:1-4&5:20, Philippians 2:5-8, Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:12-20) The confusion of Jesus being identified as God is because some believe that means Jesus is the Father, but that is not accurate. Jesus and the Father are distinct from one another as these Scriptures reveal, but Jesus and the Father are by nature and essence God. The Holy Spirit is identified as being God. (John 14:16-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-15, Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:15-18) Many oppose the nature of the Holy Spirit and teach Him being an it, an active force, or some power of God. But as these Scriptures reveal the Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Father & Jesus, and is identified as being God. Do Christians believe in three Gods? As stated before many have a wrong understanding of the Bible teaching there is one God and being revealed through three distinct persons. Christians do not believe in three Gods because that would be polytheism and the Bible clearly rejects that. Christians are monotheists not polytheists, and the Bible teaches that there is only one God which we are to follow and believe in. The Bible teaches there is only one God which we are to follow and believe in. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22) The Bible teaches that God is one in nature not one in person. (Genesis 1:26, Genesis 11:7, Genesis 19:24, Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 48:12-18, Amos 4:10-12) The Bible teaches God is one in unity. (Deuteronomy 6:4) The Hebrew word here for one is "echad" which means a compound unity. Places which show this in context for the word "echad" are in Genesis 2:24, Ezra 2:64, Ezekiel 37:17 and other references. The Bible does not teach God is one in person. If the Bible taught God was one in person than the Hebrew word "yachid" would be used. The Hebrew word "yachid" means one in number and has a specific meaning. This word would of been used instead of "echad" in the Scriptures in reference to God's nature if God was only one in person. In conclusion, this information shows Christians do not worship or believe in three Gods, but that Christians believe in one God who has been revealed through three distinct persons. The Bible teaches God is one in unity and nature, not one in number, and this is clearly seen. The Bible also teaches that there is one Church but many members, and in the same way there is one God existing through three distinct personages. (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)

It is stupid to say that Islam effected by arab pagans, while you still pray to pictures

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Sorry Christianity was not founded as socio-political religion by a Jew or Greek or Hebrew patriot. On the hand Muhammad clearly adapted most pre-islamic traditions into islam, since he was a traveler and a merchant he knew all about 'em. Furthermore, Statues and images are neither worshipped or venerated in churches. They are placed in churches for a) Teaching purposes, and b) as reminders of the members of God's kingdom. People may pray before these images, just as people pray before a cross or a pulpit, or a muslim preaching platform, this does not mean they are worshipping the statue, cross, pulpit, or preaching platform. Similarly along with images of Jesus and Mary, Catholic and Orthodox churches contain images of other Christian Saints, like St Francis, St john the Baptist, St Anne, and St Joseph. None of these form part of the God (Trinity).

stillsmallvoice said:

Hi all!

Please allow me to present a[n orthodox] Jewish view.

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Stillsmallvoice

Thank you for an interesting and well-considered post.

Can you tell me how Jews reconcile this non-trinitarian view with Genesis 1:26

Genesis 1
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." emphasis mine