Does Israel Have A Right To Exist?

[Julie]

Originally posted by cenimo
Just MHO but I don't think you can be a Christian and not support Israel...

I agree Cenimo, good point.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by cenimo
Just MHO but I don't think you can be a Christian and not support Israel...

I would have to disagree in principle though I do support Israel and am a Christian.  It sounds kind of like the assertion by some zionists that not supporting the Israeli government is anti-semitism. 

I think Israel has a right to exist.  At the same token I think Ariel Sharon is a war criminal who has blood of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon on his hands.  He is evil and the Israelis are culpable for electing him (the fact his opponent Ehud Barak was an ineffective leader notwithstanding).  It is a complex situation, not easily given to simplicities.

Even more complex is the matter of rebuilding the Temple.  Because the Dome of the Rock, where Mohammed ascended into Heaven according to Islam, is sacred to Muslims,  Jews and Christians can't move it across the street to rebuild the Temple without offending all the Muslims and precipitating war.

 

 

[cenimo]

Texas Lynn

where Mohammed ascended into Heaven according to Islam,

and that is just their version...consider the "angel" that appeared to Mohammed was actually the devil and thus Islam is nothing but a counterfeit religion...

add to that that Israel simply does whatever it has to do to survive

add to that the logisitics and geography of  the the 1967 war, and no way could one nation fight...and beat...all the surrounding nations...in Six Days...oh yeah, wait a minute, they definitley had some Divine Intervention...

Hosea 4:6

 

[cenimo]

How many people questioning Israels' "right to exist" (that in itself sounds judgemental) know the events leading up to May 14 1948?

Read a little history, get on the net and look up IDF, and learn about the Palmach and the Haganah...

 

[Michael0701]

cenimo,

I certianly wasn't trying to be judgemental when I posted the question. It's just that I have heard that phrase used so many times by the jewish community here in the Philadelphia area that it kinda stuck in my head.

But what are you getting at by your last post, I would like to know. Are you saying that zionism is wrong, because that is how I felt up until recently. My mind wasn't changed by something I read proving their right to a nation, it was something that happened inside of me. I will do a search on the Palmach and Haganah, thanx.

 

[cenimo]

Michael0701


sorry, the comment about the question itself wasn't meant to be a dig at all

my main point is that Israel simply does what it must do to survive...far too many people are critical of it and when you ask how much they know of the history you get dreck.
Just yet another toic where people are super-opinionated and rarely informed.

(Yiddish for a bunch of baloney)

 

 

(gee, that's tough censor - how will I ever post storie about being a dealer in Vegas?")    


Edited for language content.

 

[Michael0701]

Well then I must say I feel the same way. As well as admit that I know very little about their history.

 

[Blindfaith]

Hey Michael and Cenimo, I just wanted to pop in here and thank you two for having such a good discussion without anyone getting upset.  It's nice to see for a change! 

Thanks

 

 

[Michael0701]

Pray4Israel,

thanks for the link!

 

[cenimo]

Michael0701

no problem, like I said the judgemental thing wasn't targeted at you or antyone, just a statement "thrown in the air" .... if an Israeli or anyonr else posted a topic "Does America have a right to exist" we'd probably question it and be upset about it

Pray4Isrel

thanks for that link




Let' take a look at the **** table and see what's going on.... the shooter just got the dice, bets $5 on the pass line, and rolls a 12 ****...loses the bet, but keeps the dice, but he had bet$1 on any **** so actually made $2 althought he rolled a craps...


just kidding Miz Doulos, just kidding

 

[4Peace]

I support Israel's right to exist but find their blantant disregard of the U.N. sanctions and the rights of Palestinians repulsive.  It's also disheartening that the U.S. continues to funnel millions of dollars in cash and weapons to Israel in light of this. 

Yes, Israel was given to the Jews "waaaaaaaay back" in time.  But God never intended Israel to be a nation for exclusively Jews as illustrated by numerous scripture references to proper treatment of resident "aliens".  And, references to punishment of Israel for failure to uphold these conditions of treatment.

Here is another great link to a Israel history timeline (sorry, still a newbie, so cut and paste)

www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm

 

[Blindfaith]

But God never intended Israel to be a nation for exclusively Jews as illustrated by numerous scripture references to proper treatment of resident "aliens".

Good evening newbie.  I'm wondering if you could provide the chapter:verse for me for the above statement.  Thanks!

 

[4Peace]

Here's a few verses:

On care and protection of "aliens" Deut 10:18, Ps 146:9, and Ex 22:21 "You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt".

Israel was condemned for oppressing aliens in Ps 94:6, and Ezek. 22:7,29

Number 15:15-16 "As for the assembly, there shall be for both you and the resident alien a single statue, a perpetual statue throughout your generations; you and the alien shall be alike before the LORD.  You and the alien who resides with you shall have the same law and the same ordinance".

Jeremiah 7:6-7 "if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, and the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place...then I will dwell with you"

In Solomon's time 153,000 aliens dwelt in the land (2 Ch. 2:17).

 

 

[Clay]

Originally posted by 4Peace
  But God never intended Israel to be a nation for exclusively Jews

actually, He did.  when the Israelites were marching into Caanan with Joshua as their leader, they were commanded to wipe everyone out of Caanan.  not to leave one survivor.  and what happened?  the Israelites disobeyed God and made treaties with some of the nations and assimilated them into their culture.  because of their sin, we have the mess we see today.  to think that if the Israelites had wiped out the Amaelkites, Moabites, Hittites, Philistines, etc... then we very well may have never had a fanatical muslim nation bent on our destruction, or the 9/11 attacks, or these murderous Palestinian bombings.  a little disobedience to God goes a long way.

 

[4Peace]

The biblical understanding of wiping out "enemies" in the Caananite conquest should not be understood to mean kill and destory all humans who are not Jews.  I think the fact that God goes on to make strict rules governing the treatment of resident aliens is clear.  The term "resident alien" is confusing but further bible studies illustrate this refers to a non-Jew.  The idea that the Israeli arabs had a choice to leave is one of the misused myths found in some Zionist movements.  Another myth, is that all Palestinians want total control of Israel - many, many Palestinians would be happy with their own state and would themselves be happy with the freedom to walk their streets without being under the gun and tank.

Even from a human understanding.  Israel was never meant to be solely for Jews and this is illustrated by the Balfour Declaration in 1917 promising the Jews a "national home":


<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 3px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 3px" align=justify>Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.
His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Arthur James Balfour

 

[4Peace]

Hehe, well at least we agree on Arafat.&nbsp; The Palestinians have definitely suffered under his poor leadership.&nbsp;(I wouldn't say brainwashing though - much of their hatred stems from true hardship, injustices, and the seemingly never ending cycle of violence.)

Regarding exclusivity - I'm familiar with the Numbers passage - but how are we to account for God's commandments concerning "aliens".&nbsp; First of all, if God did suggest an exclusive Jewish land please point to scripture stating that (the gift of land PLUS the land to be only for Jews).&nbsp;Secondly, how are we to understand further scripture regarding treatment of "aliens".&nbsp; Did God change his mind?&nbsp; Did he "cave-in" to Jewish desires to co-exist with other nationalities?&nbsp; And, then how are we to understand God's condemnation of Israel in Ps 94:6 and Eze 22:7,29 for not upholding God's request for proper treatment of the "aliens".&nbsp;

 

[Omaha-gal]

Jeremiah chapters 30, 31.

 

[mala]

Originally posted by Clay
actually, He did.&nbsp; when the Israelites were marching into Caanan with Joshua as their leader, they were commanded to wipe everyone out of Caanan.&nbsp; not to leave one survivor.&nbsp; and what happened?&nbsp; the Israelites disobeyed God and made treaties with some of the nations and assimilated them into their culture.&nbsp; because of their sin, we have the mess we see today.&nbsp; to think that if the Israelites had wiped out the Amaelkites, Moabites, Hittites, Philistines, etc... then we very well may have never had a fanatical muslim nation bent on our destruction, or the 9/11 attacks, or these murderous Palestinian bombings.&nbsp; a little disobedience to God goes a long way.

nothing like a little genocide to set things right hmmmmmmm

 

[Hector Medina]

I agree w/ Michael0701.

I always support the Israelies!

I heard that Satan is trying to destroy them because in his mind the gateway to Jesus Christ/heaven will be closed if they are.
Even know hes not correct and will never,ever win.

In Christ,

Hector