Does Heaven have Levels/Tiers?

[jacks]

But the hardcore fundamentalist take is that to be a true follower of Christ, you have to be fully committed and all in.

If this is the case then not me or anybody I know (or have ever met) would make it into heaven. I pray the gate isn't truly that narrow. We should pray for guidance and aspire to be as Christlike as possible; but those who are truly without sin, don't exist.

There was that passage somewhere about teachers or certain people having higher or more responsibility than others so they would be judged more strictly/harshly.

Perhaps you mean:
“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. Luke 12:47-48

 

[seeker2122]

Why does how others are saved seem to bother you as you consider yourself saved. Right off the bat this applies to your post, the answer is also in the same parable:
M't:20:1-2:
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder,
which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day,
he sent them into his vineyard.
.
.
M't:20:6-7:
And about the eleventh hour he went out,
and found others standing idle,
and saith unto them,
Why stand ye here all the day idle?
They say unto him,
Because no man hath hired us.
He saith unto them,
Go ye also into the vineyard;
and whatsoever is right,
that shall ye receive.
.
.
M't:20:9-15:
And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour,
they received every man a penny.
But when the first came,
they supposed that they should have received more;
and they likewise received every man a penny.
And when they had received it,
they murmured against the goodman of the house,
Saying,
These last have wrought but one hour,
and thou hast made them equal unto us,
which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
But he answered one of them,
and said,
Friend,
I do thee no wrong:
didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Take that thine is,
and go thy way:
I will give unto this last,
even as unto thee.
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?
Is thine eye evil,
because I am good?

If you are promoting that some Gentiles get in via the 'light yoke', but I doubt you would object to all these people being alive for the 1,000 years as they are doing a lot less than your list even?
Eze:36:16-24:
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me,
saying,
Son of man,
when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land,
they defiled it by their own way and by their doings:
their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land,
and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
And I scattered them among the heathen,
and they were dispersed through the countries:
according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
And when they entered unto the heathen,
whither they went,
they profaned my holy name,
when they said to them,
These are the people of the LORD,
and are gone forth out of his land.
But I had pity for mine holy name,
which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen,
whither they went.
Therefore say unto the house of Israel,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
I do not this for your sakes,
O house of Israel,
but for mine holy name's sake,
which ye have profaned among the heathen,
whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name,
which was profaned among the heathen,
which ye have profaned in the midst of them;
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
saith the Lord GOD,
when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen,
and gather you out of all countries,
and will bring you into your own land.


Agree the doubting Thomas story was a real event and be a good Samaritan.
Jews cannot do they, they are like God made them:
M't:5:43-48:
Ye have heard that it hath been said,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you,
Love your enemies,
bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you,
and pray for them which despitefully use you,
and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good,
and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you,
what reward have ye?
do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only,
what do ye more than others?
do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect,
even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


How many real Christians have you chatted up?

1Th:5:1-7:
But of the times and the seasons,
brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say,
Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child;
and they shall not escape.
But ye,
brethren,
are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day:
we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep,
as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
Re:16:15-21:
Behold,
I come as a thief.
Blessed is he that watcheth,
and keepeth his garments,
lest he walk naked,
and they see his shame.
And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;
and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven,
from the throne,
saying,
It is done.
And there were voices,
and thunders,
and lightnings;
and there was a great earthquake,
such as was not since men were upon the earth,
so mighty an earthquake,
and so great.
And the great city was divided into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
And every island fled away,
and the mountains were not found.
And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven,
every stone about the weight of a talent:
and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail;
for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

For what its worth, Christians study the Bible at home during the week and then talk with others about what they learned. (rather than some Rabbi or Priest preaches to a dead silent group and takes no questions at the end)

I love the Parable of the Workers answer.
This seems to indicate that it doesn't matter if someone was a Christian for 40 years and spent their entire life sacrificing themselves to work for Christ in the mission field while the other person spent 40 years enjoying pleasures of this world (money, materialism, hedonism) but at the last year of their life accepted Jesus and they will get equal grace and reward.

This still doesn't sound right even though I understand that rationalizing faith doesn't work for faith is irrational.

So the response to your first question about why it seems like I'm so concerned about other people's salvation is not that why do I ask such question but why those people don't seem to feel burdened with a more serious call to commitment?

I guess what Jesus is saying is that we should not worry or be concerned about someone else who gets equal grace but only spent a fraction of the time and effort of living as Christian like that man who was crucified next to Jesus. He literally accepted Jesus for that few moments before his death and Jesus granted him salvation. So he got to live 99.9% of his life for himself and then at the last moment of death he confesses Jesus as Lord and gets in. So it begs to question why wouldn't anyone want to follow that same path and live ignorantly for the pleasure of the world and their own desires and then when you are old and helpless turn to Jesus and surrender to him and then go to heaven as equal as someone like Billy Graham or martyrs?

Of course, God would know now that I'd be doing this intentionally so it would disqualify my application whereas those who accepted Jesus at the last minute of their lives and got in probably didn't know Jesus or plan to do it that way even though they got to have their fun for 99% of their lives and then just turn to Jesus at the end (when it's easy and convenient) and get in on equal footing as a lifelonger.

I shall continue to wrestle with this.

 

[seeker2122]

Rev.21:12-14 it appears there definitely are tiers in heaven. Not everyone is equal in heaven for their rewards vary. The disciples will have a special place in the kingdom sitting on thrones and judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

and the passage about storing up treasures in heaven rather than storing up treasures here on earth. Any feedback on these observations?

 

[jacks]

So the response to your first question about why it seems like I'm so concerned about other people's salvation is not that why do I ask such question but why those people don't seem to feel burdened with a more serious call to commitment?

I think you're asking a good question. I think a lot of Christians feel they should be doing better, but it is for most of us a change that happens slowly. It's hard to give up the old man and is a struggle we all face. I would like to think there are "tiers" in heaven, that way even though I could do a lot better, at least I may get in.

 

[Sabertooth]

I have no ambitions beyond whatever my station is, but I hope to max that out.

 

[seeker2122]

I was also thinking about Thomas when Jesus said to him, "Jesus then said, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed."

Did Thomas go to heaven? Of course. He was definitely saved. But it appears that due to him believing ONLY after he saw the wounds and touched them, his faith offering is somewhat tainted and lesser than ones who believe WITHOUT seeing as Jesus says blessed are they. What exactly that means we do not know. What does "blessed" in this context mean? More rewards in heaven? More authentic faith that equal a better bang for your buck than the faith Thomas gave at first sight of resurrect Christ?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I have no ambitions beyond whatever my station is, but I hope to max that out.

Not many get to finish the race that ends at 'mile' 120. Satan finds a way to cut people down well before then.
Ge:6:3:
And the LORD said,
My spirit shall not always strive with man,
for that he also is flesh:
yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Ec:12:1-7:
Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth,
while the evil days come not,
nor the years draw nigh,
when thou shalt say,
I have no pleasure in them;
While the sun,
or the light,
or the moon,
or the stars,
be not darkened,
nor the clouds return after the rain:
In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble,
and the strong men shall bow themselves,
and the grinders cease because they are few,
and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
And the doors shall be shut in the streets,
when the sound of the grinding is low,
and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird,
and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high,
and fears shall be in the way,
and the almond tree shall flourish,
and the grasshopper shall be a burden,
and desire shall fail:
because man goeth to his long home,
and the mourners go about the streets:
Or ever the silver cord be loosed,
or the golden bowl be broken,
or the pitcher be broken at the fountain,
or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

That is the age God judges a person, people do it based on an unproven lie most of the time. Being in the grave takes away a person's free will, such as accepting all conditions before you are at judgment time.
M't:23:38-39:
Behold,
your house is left unto you desolate.
For I say unto you,
Ye shall not see me henceforth,
till ye shall say,
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Reality helps when you have to walk around in a world run by psychopaths:
M'r:13:25:
And the stars of heaven shall fall,
and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
3Jo:1:11:
Beloved,
follow not that which is evil,
but that which is good.
He that doeth good is of God:
but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
M't:7:14-21:
Because strait is the gate,
and narrow is the way,
which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it.
Beware of false prophets,
which come to you in sheep's clothing,
but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Do men gather grapes of thorns,
or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit;
but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,
neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me,
Lord,
Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I was also thinking about Thomas when Jesus said to him, "Jesus then said, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed."

Did Thomas go to heaven? Of course. He was definitely saved. But it appears that due to him believing ONLY after he saw the wounds and touched them, his faith offering is somewhat tainted and lesser than ones who believe WITHOUT seeing as Jesus says blessed are they. What exactly that means we do not know. What does "blessed" in this context mean? More rewards in heaven? More authentic faith that equal a better bang for your buck than the faith Thomas gave at first sight of resurrect Christ?

The difference is being woken up at the start of the 1,000 years or at the end when 'all wrath is past'. The first group become the shepherds to the other group when both are at their appointed stations in the new earth era.

Ge:2:7:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.

Ec:3:20:
All go unto one place;
all are of the dust,
and all turn to dust again.
Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ec:9:10:
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,
do it with thy might;
for there is no work,
nor device,
nor knowledge,
nor wisdom,
in the grave,
whither thou goest.

Job:14:12-15: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Thomas and all others alive (or living) via the Re:20:4 resurrection verse are like Jesus was when He asked Mary M. to not touch him. God then took Him to New Jerusalem, Jesus will take all people that will be alive for the 1,000-year reign to the living water and tree of life in the scene described in Eze:47.
The 'house' is the temple in Zec:14, the water is the same waters mentioned in Eze:47.
The 24 Elders are the OT Saints resurrected the same morning as Jesus, they went straight to the Re:4 temple where they can be alive as 'spiritual beings', they will come with Jesus and be led to the material that will allow a spiritual (immortal) being to interact with the material (mortal) world.
In the new earth, God will change a child at the age of 120, the change will be 'instantly'.

 

[seeker2122]

The difference is being woken up at the start of the 1,000 years or at the end when 'all wrath is past'. The first group become the shepherds to the other group when both are at their appointed stations in the new earth era.

Ge:2:7:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.

Ec:3:20:
All go unto one place;
all are of the dust,
and all turn to dust again.
Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ec:9:10:
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,
do it with thy might;
for there is no work,
nor device,
nor knowledge,
nor wisdom,
in the grave,
whither thou goest.

Job:14:12-15: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Thomas and all others alive (or living) via the Re:20:4 resurrection verse are like Jesus was when He asked Mary M. to not touch him. God then took Him to New Jerusalem, Jesus will take all people that will be alive for the 1,000-year reign to the living water and tree of life in the scene described in Eze:47.
The 'house' is the temple in Zec:14, the water is the same waters mentioned in Eze:47.
The 24 Elders are the OT Saints resurrected the same morning as Jesus, they went straight to the Re:4 temple where they can be alive as 'spiritual beings', they will come with Jesus and be led to the material that will allow a spiritual (immortal) being to interact with the material (mortal) world.
In the new earth, God will change a child at the age of 120, the change will be 'instantly'.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you said but I appreciate it! You give me a lot more things to think about and read in the Bible so thank you haha

 

[Wayne Gabler]

These people are resurrected at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign. When the new earth era begins when New Jerusalem lands on this earth (polished ball of glass due to the fire that sent all fallen angels to the lake) It is the only structure on earth as the area outside the city is a 'courtyard'.
That group stays in the city while the ones who entered via the Great White Throne event exit the city and are taken to all parts of the universe (new earth).
The people in the city are not given in marriage, they never have children, their population never increases. The people Re:20:5 enter the city when it is still in Mount Sion (new heaven promised to sinless angels)
When it lands on this earth, they all exit and begin a life that Adam and Eve would have had in a sinless version of this earth.
The ones in the city are called the shepherds because the '1 day' they were with God would make them 'wiser' than the people who were still in the grave.
The people who are scattered across the universe are referred to as infants until they are 20 years old. At that time they are given in marriage, 100 years later they have 100 children behind them as they lived as 'eternal beings' that need to eat to remain alive, as do all the flesh they have dominion over. At the afe of 120 years they are made immortal by God and they no longer have any children as they enter the 'grandparent' stage, one that never ends

The two swords are the same sword, the 'servants' are the 12 tribes and the Gentile Church that are the only living things on earth during that time. They are basically going to be taught what the 24 Elders have been learning since 30AD.

Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Isa:65:12-13:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
.
.
Isa:65:17:
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
.
.
Isa:65:20-21:
There shall be no more thence an infant of days,
nor an old man that hath not filled his days:
for the child shall die an hundred years old;
but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
And they shall build houses,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and eat the fruit of them.
.
.
Isa:65:24-25:
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock:
and dust shall be the serpent's meat.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain,
saith the LORD.

If you like reading new material you might want to look at some of my 'study note', in particular 'the Day of the Lord' (40 pages0 and the Brass and Iron documents that are a bit more than 5 pages each.
Scriptures - Google Drive

 

[seeker2122]

These people are resurrected at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign. When the new earth era begins when New Jerusalem lands on this earth (polished ball of glass due to the fire that sent all fallen angels to the lake) It is the only structure on earth as the area outside the city is a 'courtyard'.
That group stays in the city while the ones who entered via the Great White Throne event exit the city and are taken to all parts of the universe (new earth).
The people in the city are not given in marriage, they never have children, their population never increases. The people Re:20:5 enter the city when it is still in Mount Sion (new heaven promised to sinless angels)
When it lands on this earth, they all exit and begin a life that Adam and Eve would have had in a sinless version of this earth.
The ones in the city are called the shepherds because the '1 day' they were with God would make them 'wiser' than the people who were still in the grave.
The people who are scattered across the universe are referred to as infants until they are 20 years old. At that time they are given in marriage, 100 years later they have 100 children behind them as they lived as 'eternal beings' that need to eat to remain alive, as do all the flesh they have dominion over. At the afe of 120 years they are made immortal by God and they no longer have any children as they enter the 'grandparent' stage, one that never ends

The two swords are the same sword, the 'servants' are the 12 tribes and the Gentile Church that are the only living things on earth during that time. They are basically going to be taught what the 24 Elders have been learning since 30AD.

Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Isa:65:12-13:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
.
.
Isa:65:17:
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
.
.
Isa:65:20-21:
There shall be no more thence an infant of days,
nor an old man that hath not filled his days:
for the child shall die an hundred years old;
but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
And they shall build houses,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and eat the fruit of them.
.
.
Isa:65:24-25:
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock:
and dust shall be the serpent's meat.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain,
saith the LORD.

If you like reading new material you might want to look at some of my 'study note', in particular 'the Day of the Lord' (40 pages0 and the Brass and Iron documents that are a bit more than 5 pages each.
Scriptures - Google Drive

Thank you I have downloaded them.
I also wonder how much of these descriptions in Isaiah or other prophet's visions are metaphorical and how much of it is exact or literal as they describe it.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Thank you I have downloaded them.
I also wonder how much of these descriptions in Isaiah or other prophet's visions are metaphorical and how much of it is exact or literal as they describe it.

The ones about 'visions' and 'seals/trumps' cover part of that. After reading them when you read Isaiah most of the terms used sort of fall into place because they fit in with other prophecies so clarity is added to both visions.
The label for this version is 'futurist/literalist', no websites as the clarity comes from reading it like you are researching it. (e-bible and word/phrase orientated. 'Grace' is a term with a liminited number of references, after you real the passages they come from you know enough about grave to see how it 'works' and why is 'hype'.

Would you buy a book where the climax has all flesh conceived on this sinful world being alive to start a life in a sinless version of this earth?
Part of the 'large amount of reading' is so when looking at YouTube vids or whatever you can spot the good parts and the bad as well.
If you have any thoughts you think deserve a thread, send me a link so I can add any updates, if there are any. My e-mail is a gmail account if that works for you.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jesus wants us to change what we think about when we speak of "treasure". If we treasure mansions, crowns, and things like this then we are failing to understand what He is talking about.

The Church, historically, speaks of those who received their "martyr's crown", i.e. they suffered as martyrs and died for it. It is not that they have literal crowns in heaven, but rather their martyrdom is their crown.

When Jesus says, "In My Father's house are many rooms" (translated in older translations as "mansions" when the more archaic meaning of "mansion" was simply referring to a place where a person stays), He is not saying we get elaborate palatial estates; He is saying we have a place that is with Him, "That where I am you shall be also" in the Father's oikia, dwelling, household, the place where the Father is we have a place to live for there are many monai, rooms. We have a place with Jesus, who is with the Father.

But also, let us remember that "heaven" is only the intermediate state. We aren't destined to live as disembodied "souls" up in some place called "heaven" for all eternity. Our forever home is here on earth, when God makes all things new, when God renews and restores all of creation; new heavens and new earth; as we look forward to the resurrection of the body and the life of the Age to Come.

I anticipate that the greatest treasures of that future world will be the treasure of serving one another and enjoying God, and caring for God's good creation. So we should be living in the truth of those things now.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Jesus wants us to change what we think about when we speak of "treasure". If we treasure mansions, crowns, and things like this then we are failing to understand what He is talking about.

The first two stories that come to mind is the, 'good master' story as that was probably a money-changer.
Christians have 7 letters that define 14 possible relationships people can have with God that will define if they live through the 7 vials or not. The 1/3 that survive are 'repented Gentiles', their reward is to be alive for the 1,000 years, along with the whole House of Israel as the Re:20:4 resurrections are completed when the war against the Nations is completed:
Zec:13:8-9:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.

During the 1,000 years they gain enough wisdom that God sees them as sinless when He is sending 'other immortals' to the fiery lake. Fast-forward to the end of Re:22 as that is where the 'new earth' verses and the people alive for the 1,000 years are living in New Jerusalem and 'the rest' have been taken to different worlds where each married couple starts off like Adam and Eve at the end of Ge:2.
The people in the city will act like thge voice of God in Ge: as they pass along the wisdom they already have about the Kingdom of God. The rest of the new earth era follows that same pattern. At one point the people in the city are as wise as the Angels in their New Heaven (Mount Sion, Hebrews:12). They ascend there as the wisest people living outside the city move into the city. That progression continues forever.
There is 'already gathered' and 'not yet gathered'. If 2/3 are destined to died it is because they are needed as part of the flock as they are a much larger group than the ones alive for the 1,000 years. That alone should show that group, they are not as important to the whole story as they think they are.

The Church, historically, speaks of those who received their "martyr's crown", i.e. they suffered as martyrs and died for it. It is not that they have literal crowns in heaven, but rather their martyrdom is their crown.

Being persecuted can only happen when you encounter false Christians or Jews who have been blinded by God. He has a special mission for them as the 6-fingerd giants are all in the grave:
Eze:36:16-28:
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me,
saying,
Son of man,
when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land,
they defiled it by their own way and by their doings:
their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land,
and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
And I scattered them among the heathen,
and they were dispersed through the countries:
according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
And when they entered unto the heathen,
whither they went,
they profaned my holy name,
when they said to them,
These are the people of the LORD,
and are gone forth out of his land.
But I had pity for mine holy name,
which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen,
whither they went.
Therefore say unto the house of Israel,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
I do not this for your sakes,
O house of Israel,
but for mine holy name's sake,
which ye have profaned among the heathen,
whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name,
which was profaned among the heathen,
which ye have profaned in the midst of them;
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
saith the Lord GOD,
when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen,
and gather you out of all countries,
and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you,
and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness,
and from all your idols,
will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you,
and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,
and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you,
and cause you to walk in my statutes,
and ye shall keep my judgments,
and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers;
and ye shall be my people,
and I will be your God.

When Jesus says, "In My Father's house are many rooms" (translated in older translations as "mansions" when the more archaic meaning of "mansion" was simply referring to a place where a person stays), He is not saying we get elaborate palatial estates; He is saying we have a place that is with Him, "That where I am you shall be also" in the Father's oikia, dwelling, household, the place where the Father is we have a place to live for there are many monai, rooms. We have a place with Jesus, who is with the Father.

The 'servants' in Isaiah:65 are the people alive in Zec:14 as that is the 1.000 years. They live in New Jerusalem from the momemnt they enter that city until they ascent back to this same place, as Angels rather than 'perfected men':
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Heb:12:22-24:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

But also, let us remember that "heaven" is only the intermediate state. We aren't destined to live as disembodied "souls" up in some place called "heaven" for all eternity. Our forever home is here on earth, when God makes all things new, when God renews and restores all of creation; new heavens and new earth; as we look forward to the resurrection of the body and the life of the Age to Come.

Only until people are as perfect as the angels in the verse above, then the people that are not given in marriage will ascend there where they can be given in marriage and have a child that is born perfected. The living and tree of life is how a spiritual being changes, so they can interact with the material world.
Jesus was a spiritual being the morning of His resurrection, by the coming evening God and taken Him to New Jerusalem and returned Him to this earth. People are spiritual at the end of the same day the two witnesses are resurrected. Within 2 months Jesus will have led the whole House of Israel and the Gentile Church to the living water and tree of life in the Eze:47 passage. The water is the same as the water in Zec:14, it will flow from the throne in the Re:4 Temple as it will be on earth for the 1,000 year reign.
When New Jerusalem lands at the end of Re:22 it is the only structure on this earth. The people from the GWT event exit the city, God gives each married couple a barren world to turn into an Eden. The flock is to do that to the whole universe. The people in the city never leave:

I anticipate that the greatest treasures of that future world will be the treasure of serving one another and enjoying God, and caring for God's good creation. So we should be living in the truth of those things now.

Isa:65:15-19:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create:
for,
behold,
I create Jerusalem a rejoicing,
and her people a joy.
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and joy in my people:
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,
nor the voice of crying.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The first two stories that come to mind is the, 'good master' story as that was probably a money-changer.
Christians have 7 letters that define 14 possible relationships people can have with God that will define if they live through the 7 vials or not. The 1/3 that survive are 'repented Gentiles', their reward is to be alive for the 1,000 years, along with the whole House of Israel as the Re:20:4 resurrections are completed when the war against the Nations is completed:
Zec:13:8-9:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.

During the 1,000 years they gain enough wisdom that God sees them as sinless when He is sending 'other immortals' to the fiery lake. Fast-forward to the end of Re:22 as that is where the 'new earth' verses and the people alive for the 1,000 years are living in New Jerusalem and 'the rest' have been taken to different worlds where each married couple starts off like Adam and Eve at the end of Ge:2.
The people in the city will act like thge voice of God in Ge: as they pass along the wisdom they already have about the Kingdom of God. The rest of the new earth era follows that same pattern. At one point the people in the city are as wise as the Angels in their New Heaven (Mount Sion, Hebrews:12). They ascend there as the wisest people living outside the city move into the city. That progression continues forever.
There is 'already gathered' and 'not yet gathered'. If 2/3 are destined to died it is because they are needed as part of the flock as they are a much larger group than the ones alive for the 1,000 years. That alone should show that group, they are not as important to the whole story as they think they are.


Being persecuted can only happen when you encounter false Christians or Jews who have been blinded by God. He has a special mission for them as the 6-fingerd giants are all in the grave:
Eze:36:16-28:
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me,
saying,
Son of man,
when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land,
they defiled it by their own way and by their doings:
their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land,
and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
And I scattered them among the heathen,
and they were dispersed through the countries:
according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
And when they entered unto the heathen,
whither they went,
they profaned my holy name,
when they said to them,
These are the people of the LORD,
and are gone forth out of his land.
But I had pity for mine holy name,
which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen,
whither they went.
Therefore say unto the house of Israel,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
I do not this for your sakes,
O house of Israel,
but for mine holy name's sake,
which ye have profaned among the heathen,
whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name,
which was profaned among the heathen,
which ye have profaned in the midst of them;
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
saith the Lord GOD,
when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen,
and gather you out of all countries,
and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you,
and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness,
and from all your idols,
will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you,
and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,
and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you,
and cause you to walk in my statutes,
and ye shall keep my judgments,
and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers;
and ye shall be my people,
and I will be your God.


The 'servants' in Isaiah:65 are the people alive in Zec:14 as that is the 1.000 years. They live in New Jerusalem from the momemnt they enter that city until they ascent back to this same place, as Angels rather than 'perfected men':
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Heb:12:22-24:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.




Only until people are as perfect as the angels in the verse above, then the people that are not given in marriage will ascend there where they can be given in marriage and have a child that is born perfected. The living and tree of life is how a spiritual being changes, so they can interact with the material world.
Jesus was a spiritual being the morning of His resurrection, by the coming evening God and taken Him to New Jerusalem and returned Him to this earth. People are spiritual at the end of the same day the two witnesses are resurrected. Within 2 months Jesus will have led the whole House of Israel and the Gentile Church to the living water and tree of life in the Eze:47 passage. The water is the same as the water in Zec:14, it will flow from the throne in the Re:4 Temple as it will be on earth for the 1,000 year reign.
When New Jerusalem lands at the end of Re:22 it is the only structure on this earth. The people from the GWT event exit the city, God gives each married couple a barren world to turn into an Eden. The flock is to do that to the whole universe. The people in the city never leave:


Isa:65:15-19:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create:
for,
behold,
I create Jerusalem a rejoicing,
and her people a joy.
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and joy in my people:
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,
nor the voice of crying.

Can I ask a question? What kind of church do you attend?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Can I ask a question? What kind of church do you attend?

-CryptoLutheran

The people in my neighbourhood are addicts, minority groups, etc. My parents were Anglican, the quality of the Priests varied.
Pretty much all the last 30 years was spent being a single parent to my step-grandson.