Does God withdraw his presence from believers?

[ToBeLoved]

On what basis will He leave me?
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
1 Corinthians 13:5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged.
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Hebrews 13:5 He will never leave us or forsake us.

Thank you brother! Finally, some scripture.

Amen!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

On what basis will He leave me?
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
1 Corinthians 13:5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged.
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Hebrews 13:5 He will never leave us or forsake us.

You ask on what basis would He leave you.
Disobedience for one.
Ignoring Him for another
Doing your own thing is yet another.

I thank you for taking the time to post some scriptures. Let's look at a few others as well.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Clearly here these folks once were Spirit filled believers walking in the anointing of God.
They refused to listen or keep to God's Ways and eventually the Holy Spirit left and the evil in this world filled them where the Holy Spirit once swelled.
That is why it is written, it is impossible to bring them to repentance, because at this point they do Not want anything of God.

It starts with a little deception, such as osas and the belief that Jesus died for all our sins such as past, present and future. Although this is true, it's not a free pass to live as one wishes and it's all goid because God already forgave me of all my sins.

There is a heavy price to pay for disobedience.

You quoted He will never leave or forsake us and this is true BUT in order to make this true we MUST be walking in His Ways.

Blessings to you

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

So, I'm not sure why that is even an issue on the table in this conversation.

What I said, and I will try to be very clear.

Because you keep insisting that works are not required to walk out our salvation.
You seem to jump around a lot and change what you are referring to.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Funny. You just added your own wording to the meaning of that scripture. The scripture doesn’t say what you said it says.

Hmmm, then what do you think happens when one continues to grieve the Holy Spirit?
You keep saying I don't provide scripture but when I do you ignore them or dismiss them.
How about #56?

 

[Doug Melven]

Disobedience for one.
Ignoring Him for another
Doing your own thing is yet another.

Did you read the Scriptures I showed?
The main clause of the New Covenant is
I will be merciful to there unrighteousness, and there sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:12, 10:16-17

All three of those things you list are bad. But, if we believe the Scripture, God says He will not hold them against us.
I know what you are going to say next.
If that is true, why don't we just live in sin?
Paul answered this in Romans 5:20-6:2
Where sin abounds, grace abounds much more.
What then shall we continue in sin that grace may abound.
God forbid, how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein.

What you believe is in direct contradiction to this Scripture.
You say when we sin, we receive judgment. Paul says we receive grace.
That phrase, "God forbid" is the equivalent of "That's stupid".
It is stupid to keep sinning, not because God will leave us, He promised He wouldn't, but because sinning opens the door for Satan to do all kinds of bad things in our life.

I am a perfect example of that.
I got saved back in 81, left God to do my own thing after about 3 or 4 years of being a faithful Christian.
I left for about 22 years until I ended up in jail looking at 4 1/2 to 20 years in prison. Of which I did 58 months.
Doing things my way caused me a great deal of pain. god never left me though I grieved Him considerably.
While sitting in jail God told me it was time to get back up and start serving Him again.
I told Him that I couldn't do it because I knew I would just fall again.
He told me about Philippians 4:13, I can do all things through Christ.
I told God I would, but He was going to have to keep me from falling again. And He has done just for over 10 years.

If there had been a person that God would have left, I would have been that person.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hmmm, then what do you think happens when one continues to grieve the Holy Spirit?
You keep saying I don't provide scripture but when I do you ignore them or dismiss them.
How about #56?

Simple. That the Holy Spirit is grieved.

You add more to it than what it clearly says. Asking me what I think happens. Why not reference scripture instead of adding your opinion to God’s Word?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Because you keep insisting that works are not required to walk out our salvation.
You seem to jump around a lot and change what you are referring to.

I see that you consider forgiveness to be a work. I don’t consider forgiveness to be a work. Nor do I consider love to be a work.

The works inside of us are done by Christ for His glory and through us.

I don’t take personal credit for these things.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

While sitting in jail God told me it was time to get back up and start serving Him again.
I told Him that I couldn't do it because I knew I would just fall again.
He told me about Philippians 4:13, I can do all things through Christ.
I told God I would, but He was going to have to keep me from falling again. And He has done just for over 10 years.

Exactly! You still had enough light in you that you turned back. If you would have continued to resist past that point things would have been different.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Simple. That the Holy Spirit is grieved.

You add more to it than what it clearly says. Asking me what I think happens. Why not reference scripture instead of adding your opinion to God’s Word?

I dont and I asked you this for a point and your answer proves the point. You have no idea. You blow it off as we just grieve the Holy Spirit as if there is no consequences.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I see that you consider forgiveness to be a work. I don’t consider forgiveness to be a work. Nor do I consider love to be a work.

The works inside of us are done by Christ for His glory and through us.

I don’t take personal credit for these things.

Then that's something you need to gain understanding in.
Biblical Works are things we MUST do in order to release God's promises and Word into our lives.

Forgiveness is something we choose to obey or not. There is no if we can. We either obey and forgive or we disobey and refuse to forgive. There is no gray area here.

Faith without works is useless dead faith.
Standing on God's Word when everything says different is a must and this is also seen as works.
Denying the flesh is works because it's our choice.

The work God does in us has nothing to do with this. Please don't change to topic in order to make your statement .
Thank you
Blessings to you

 

[Doug Melven]

Exactly! You still had enough light in you that you turned back. If you would have continued to resist past that point things would have been different.

You can't even imagine the things I did to grieve the Holy Spirit. All of the things listed in Galatians 5:19-21 I did over the course of those 22 years.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

I didn't actually murder or commit witchcraft but I did hate people and I did drugs.

So for someone to tell me that those who do such things as a believer have lost there salvation, I know better.
Because I was there, and I know God has forgiven me.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

You can't even imagine the things I did to grieve the Holy Spirit.

Hi Doug,
Actually yes I can because I did the same as well as half the body of Christ.
God is Awesome that's for sure!

So for someone to tell me that those who do such things as a believer have lost there salvation, I know better.
Because I was there, and I know God has forgiven me.

I agree because that's not what I am referring to. What i am talking about happens gradually over time until they truly do not want anything to do with God's Ways.

We are under Grace but that is not a safety net as some think to live any old way they want and it's all Good.

Have you ever thought about what may of happened if you would have ignored His Warning that it was time to get right?

1Corinthians3:15
But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

Some people will just barely make it into Heaven and won't hear, well done my faithful servant. Fire is representative of Judgment.

Mathew7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Many who think they are saved will find out they are not. Those who think they can live any way they want because God already forgave them, will be in for a heartbreak.

Any way Doug, I was not saying any or all slip up takes away ones salvation.
What I am saying is that it is totally possible to loose it but God will go out of His way to prevent this, but in the end, it all comes down to the individual.

Very Blessed knowing you turned back!!
Blessings to you and your family

 

[ToBeLoved]

I dont and I asked you this for a point and your answer proves the point. You have no idea. You blow it off as we just grieve the Holy Spirit as if there is no consequences.

Give me the scripture that shows that we loose our salvation because we grieve the Holy Spirit?

I’m not blowing anything off, but I don’t add my own opinion to scripture.

So please, show me in scripture

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Give me the scripture that shows that we loose our salvation because we grieve the Holy Spirit?

I’m not blowing anything off, but I don’t add my own opinion to scripture.

So please, show me in scripture

I have several times.
Understand this is not grieve the Holy Spirit once and lose your salvation. If that were true most of us would not be saved.

It's a gradual thing where one continues to grieve the Holy Spirit over and over refusing to listen.

Blessings to you

 

[Doug Melven]

I have several times.
Understand this is not grieve the Holy Spirit once and lose your salvation. If that were true most of us would not be saved.

It's a gradual thing where one continues to grieve the Holy Spirit over and over refusing to listen.

Blessings to you

That's just it, that concept denies the holiness of God.
And the only Scripture that comes close to what you are saying is Hebrews 3:12-13.
But in the last chapter of that book we find this in verse 5.
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

God is always with us so we should not covet and we should be content.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

That's just it, that concept denies the holiness of God.
And the only Scripture that comes close to what you are saying is Hebrews 3:12-13.
But in the last chapter of that book we find this in verse 5.
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

God is always with us so we should not covet and we should be content.

Look at post #72
Also remember Hebrews 6;4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It's referring to at one time Spirit filled believers walking in God's Ways.
Slowly over time they turned from God and His Ways.
This OSAS falls apart.

Ok but you are using verse 5 as a point in another area which it does not fit.

It's not God that left. These folks made the choice to abandon God's ways. God did not leave them, He simply honored their choices.

God says He will make a way of escape in a tempting situation.
God did not say He would stop you.
If you choose to give in then so be it. It would be your choice .

It's like the great debate about God sending innocent people to hell.
God sends NO one to hell.
They make that choice by REJECTING God's gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.
God won't STOP them or Make them change.

When the Holy Spirit pull out, it is because time after time one rejects His correction and over time just simply walks away.
God is merciful but there does come the time when He will let you walk away and osas is nothing but a doctrine of demons designed in deceiving Christians into a false hope of security.

 

[Southernscotty]

Question: "Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?"

Answer: Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6confirms that doctrine.

 

[Doug Melven]

Look at post #72

ok

Have you ever thought about what may of happened if you would have ignored His Warning that it was time to get right?

That would be a foolish road to go down. The road of "What if" I had done this or that. Silly conjecture.

1Corinthians3:15
But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

Some people will just barely make it into Heaven and won't hear, well done my faithful servant. Fire is representative of Judgment.

I do believe this is the first time I have ever heard someone who was against eternal security bring this verse up and support eternal security.
I agree there will be many believers who will just barely make it, yet so as by fire.

Mathew7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Many who think they are saved will find out they are not. Those who think they can live any way they want because God already forgave them, will be in for a heartbreak.

The people in this Scripture were not living any way they wanted, they were calling Jesus Lord.
And Jesus was telling them that He never knew them. That is they were never born-again.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Question: "Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?"

Answer: Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6confirms that doctrine.

Nothing about these scriptures are dealing with unbelievers.
You can not be partakers of the Holy Spirit unless you are born again and Spirit Filled.

Your argument is actually fact not make believe.
Falling Away is ACTUALLY walking away.
It happens slowly through deception.
Once a person walks so far as to simply mot want anything more to do with God , they then can not be swayed back to repentance because they will not even listen.

It's a very sad day when believers start stripping the NT saying this is for non believers or a particular group then and so forth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi all, I've been reading the psalms today because the last week I lost my way with God and could no longer sense his presence. I tried fasting, praying, renouncing, announcing, meditating, listening to worship music and still I can't sense him, I feel spiritually dry.

some say that God withdraws his presence sometimes in response to sin or to remind us that we are dependant on him, Others say that God NEVER withdraws his presence from us but that when we feel far from God its because WE moved. Im not sure the latter has a strong biblical basis when you can see the psalmist asking God HOW LONG WILL YOU HIDE YOUR FACE FROM ME

so whats the truth? does God withdraw his presence?

From CS Lewis
This is from Screwtape Letters and so the "our" is the enemy of our souls.
“Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys.”"

Apparently the feeling is not uncommon so do not despair. If you are seeking Him, He will answer in time. But in the meantime, let the above be your comfort and motto.