Does God really *punish* nations based on whether or not they follow Christian values?

[Ryukil]

A lot of people are saying God will punish America because of the legalization of same-sex marriage. My question is..what does this mean in effect? Does this mean that if we go to war our jet fighters will somehow stop working mid-combat? Our guns will jam?

Does it mean our economy will implode? China will take over the world?

But then the question is...how will China take over the world? I mean China is a basically atheistic state...why would God bless them with power?

I'm pretty interested in history and it looks to me like powerful states have risen and fallen and it didn't really have to do with whether or not they followed Christian values. It has to do with things like...whether or not they have natural resources...how good their generals are...if they can build a good economy...if they can hold their territory. So I just think it's weird to say that God is involved here.

Look at the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was pagan. It was one of the greatest powers in all of history. It eventually converted to Christianity, but it was around that time that it started to weaken (not saying there is a correlation, just pointing out that it's the opposite of what someone who follows the "God blesses Christian states" idea would think. If that idea were true...Rome should have become EVEN MORE powerful at this point).

Look at the Arabic caliphate...I mean they conquered a giant area of territory and built a prosperous cultural and scientific civilization...and they were Muslims. They eventually fell due to the Mongols and Turks...more pagans. Was God helping the pagans?

Look at the Ottomans. They too built a prosperous civilization...which was Muslim.

I mean how did the Chinese ever build powerful civilizations? They were Taoist and Confucian and Buddhist.

I just don't see where God is involved here.

I mean the Dutch were a Christian civilization and they built a powerful trading empire...based on abuse of natives and trading slaves. Was God blessing them? I hope he wasn't blessing them in that...

It's very much just...civilizations who have natural resources, good economies, good armies, good generals etc. become successful and it seems to be independent of what religion they are following. That's the point I'm trying to make. They come and go...but that's just how it works!

 

[JustOneWay]

Does it mean our economy will implode? China will take over the world?

This one is interesting because I did read an argument here on CF stating that China is becoming more Christian (5% perhaps), so yes God will punish America while blessing China!

 

[Ryukil]

But I'm saying a lot of civilizations have been very successful without being Christian.

 

[HerbieHeadley]

"Does God really *punish* nations based on whether or not they follow Christian values?"

Yes.

 

[HammerOfThor]

A lot of people are saying God will punish America because of the legalization of same-sex marriage. My question is..what does this mean in effect? Does this mean that if we go to war our jet fighters will somehow stop working mid-combat? Our guns will jam?

Does it mean our economy will implode? China will take over the world?

But then the question is...how will China take over the world? I mean China is a basically atheistic state...why would God bless them with power?

I'm pretty interested in history and it looks to me like powerful states have risen and fallen and it didn't really have to do with whether or not they followed Christian values. It has to do with things like...whether or not they have natural resources...how good their generals are...if they can build a good economy...if they can hold their territory. So I just think it's weird to say that God is involved here.

Look at the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was pagan. It was one of the greatest powers in all of history. It eventually converted to Christianity, but it was around that time that it started to weaken (not saying there is a correlation, just pointing out that it's the opposite of what someone who follows the "God blesses Christian states" idea would think. If that idea were true...Rome should have become EVEN MORE powerful at this point).

Look at the Arabic caliphate...I mean they conquered a giant area of territory and built a prosperous cultural and scientific civilization...and they were Muslims. They eventually fell due to the Mongols and Turks...more pagans. Was God helping the pagans?

Look at the Ottomans. They too built a prosperous civilization...which was Muslim.

I mean how did the Chinese ever build powerful civilizations? They were Taoist and Confucian and Buddhist.

I just don't see where God is involved here.

I mean the Dutch were a Christian civilization and they built a powerful trading empire...based on abuse of natives and trading slaves. Was God blessing them? I hope he wasn't blessing them in that...

It's very much just...civilizations who have natural resources, good economies, good armies, good generals etc. become successful and it seems to be independent of what religion they are following. That's the point I'm trying to make. They come and go...but that's just how it works!

If god rewards and punishes countries based on their policies, then evidently god favors secular Scandinavian social democracy.

 

[The Cadet]

It's a bit of a bizarre concept, as the evidence does not correlate at all. In fact, the least religious, most sexually liberal places in the world consistently do better than the USA in almost every single "quality of life" comparison. In fact, there is a straight-up negative correlation between religiosity and quality of life (although personally, I think the more reasonable attribution here is that the more desperate people get, the more likely they are to reach for religion). Still waiting on god to smite the Netherlands, personally.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

"Does God really *punish* nations based on whether or not they follow Christian values?"

Yes.

Well that isn't very nice of Him.

 

[technofox]

A lot of people are saying God will punish America because of the legalization of same-sex marriage. My question is..what does this mean in effect? Does this mean that if we go to war our jet fighters will somehow stop working mid-combat? Our guns will jam?

Does it mean our economy will implode? China will take over the world?

But then the question is...how will China take over the world? I mean China is a basically atheistic state...why would God bless them with power?

I'm pretty interested in history and it looks to me like powerful states have risen and fallen and it didn't really have to do with whether or not they followed Christian values. It has to do with things like...whether or not they have natural resources...how good their generals are...if they can build a good economy...if they can hold their territory. So I just think it's weird to say that God is involved here.

Look at the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was pagan. It was one of the greatest powers in all of history. It eventually converted to Christianity, but it was around that time that it started to weaken (not saying there is a correlation, just pointing out that it's the opposite of what someone who follows the "God blesses Christian states" idea would think. If that idea were true...Rome should have become EVEN MORE powerful at this point).

Look at the Arabic caliphate...I mean they conquered a giant area of territory and built a prosperous cultural and scientific civilization...and they were Muslims. They eventually fell due to the Mongols and Turks...more pagans. Was God helping the pagans?

Look at the Ottomans. They too built a prosperous civilization...which was Muslim.

I mean how did the Chinese ever build powerful civilizations? They were Taoist and Confucian and Buddhist.

I just don't see where God is involved here.

I mean the Dutch were a Christian civilization and they built a powerful trading empire...based on abuse of natives and trading slaves. Was God blessing them? I hope he wasn't blessing them in that...

It's very much just...civilizations who have natural resources, good economies, good armies, good generals etc. become successful and it seems to be independent of what religion they are following. That's the point I'm trying to make. They come and go...but that's just how it works!

I think the last time God had any interest in punishing an entire nation, was prior to Christ coming to Earth. I should point out that God seems more interested in working on the individual level than national, since things tend to work better from the ground up. In all seriousness though, I wouldn't want to challenge God, but I also don't want a theocratic society that tries to force people to follow Biblical laws, since forcing or trying to indoctrinate people does not equal faith.


Any thoughts on my comment???

 

[technofox]

If god rewards and punishes countries based on their policies, then evidently god favors secular Scandinavian social democracy.

Everytime I read up on Scandinavian societies, I get jealous and think why are our politicians so backwards thinking. We are to be our brother's keeper, yet so many Americans who profess being Christian and act like Cain, sarcastically saying am I my brother's keeper?

Seriously. If we don't take care of one another, then who will take care of us???

 

[ThatRobGuy]

If god rewards and punishes countries based on their policies, then evidently god favors secular Scandinavian social democracy.

I was just about to post something similar...

There are many countries in the world today (who were formerly religious/Christian) who have shifted to be largely secular who are in better shape now than they were when they were more religious. ...and I'm sure you can find instances where the inverse is true in some cases if you looked hard enough.

I don't think there's any evidence to support the assertion that allegiance to, or rejection of, any particular religion is tied to a string of inexplicable good or bad luck.

 

[super animator]

"Does God really *punish* nations based on whether or not they follow Christian values?"

Yes.

And what are these examples?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

How will we know if it is God punishing us?

What, is there gonna be some kind of natural disaster? Those have happened indiscriminately to every nation, since the dawn of time.

An invasion? Not likely... we have the biggest and most expensive military that has ever existed in the history of the world.

Financial ruin? Again, not very likely. I don't know the exact figure but we're at the top of the list of world economies.

Moral decay? Well that depends who you ask. Not everyone has the same concept of morality. And there's nothing to suggest that society is getting worse, and in fact the statistics show quality of life has greatly improved over the past century and continues to this day.

So when people say we are "going to hell in a handbasket" and that God is about to bring His judgment down on America, I honestly don't know what the heck you are talking about because this is the greatest time and place to be alive. Ever, ever.

 

[RDKirk]

A lot of people are saying God will punish America because of the legalization of same-sex marriage. My question is..what does this mean in effect? Does this mean that if we go to war our jet fighters will somehow stop working mid-combat? Our guns will jam?

No.

But let me quote Jesus on that: "I tell thee, nay!"

At that time, some people came and reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. And He responded to them, “Do you think that these Galileans were more sinful than all Galileans because they suffered these things?

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as well! Or those eighteen that the tower in Siloam fell on and killed—do you think they were more sinful than all the people who live in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as well! -- Luke 13

The only nations God ever whacked for being evil or good were Israel and those countries that directly interacted with Israel in the OT. There is no indication in scripture or in history that God has any particular concern or respect for any other worldly nation.

However, God does have a continuing concern for the sake of the Body of Christ, and it's very possible that He tilts the availability of resources to the region where His Body is pursuing His mission most faithfully.

Right now, that would be China.

 

[Albion]

A lot of people are saying God will punish America because of the legalization of same-sex marriage. My question is..what does this mean in effect? Does this mean that if we go to war our jet fighters will somehow stop working mid-combat? Our guns will jam?!

There are many ways in which God could punish a nation if he chooses. You may think it's all a big joke, but of course he did it before and is capable of doing it again. The people who are hysterical over "Climate Change" (they now call it that since they can't decide if the disaster will be overheating or a new ice age), if correct, may be concerned about a development that is God's doing, even if they would never consider attributing it to him.

 

[TLK Valentine]

There are many ways in which God could punish a nation if he chooses.

I'm sure He's very creative like that.

You may think it's all a big joke, but of course he did it before and is capable of doing it again. The people who are hysterical over "Climate Change" (they now call it that since they can't decide if the disaster will be overheating or a new ice age), if correct, may be concerned about a development that is God's doing, even if they would never consider attributing it to him.

Isn't the opposite also true? If one's first instinct is to attribute a disaster to God's divine wrath, won't they overlook the possibility that it's not?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Everytime I read up on Scandinavian societies, I get jealous and think why are our politicians so backwards thinking. We are to be our brother's keeper, yet so many Americans who profess being Christian and act like Cain, sarcastically saying am I my brother's keeper?

Seriously. If we don't take care of one another, then who will take care of us???

As far as I can tell the US takes care of its citizens. Do you have some reason to believe it does not?

 

[RDKirk]

I'm sure He's very creative like that.



Isn't the opposite also true? If one's first instinct is to attribute a disaster to God's divine wrath, won't they overlook the possibility that it's not?

You need to see that from a different viewpoint. Why are the people who believe God does create disasters to display His wrath so sure climate change is impossible?

 

[Albion]

You need to see that from a different viewpoint. Why are the people who believe God does create disasters to display His wrath so sure climate change is impossible?

I think that's rather obvious. If asked in the way you put it here, I am certain that most of them would agree that God could do that.

However, none of the "Climate Change" wingnuts DO put it to them like that. Rather, they insist that a disaster is coming quite independent of what God wants and that everyone must agree to that. This is the issue as they've framed it.

 

[Winepress777]

A lot of people are saying God will punish America because of the legalization of same-sex marriage. My question is..what does this mean in effect? Does this mean that if we go to war our jet fighters will somehow stop working mid-combat? Our guns will jam?

Does it mean our economy will implode? China will take over the world?

But then the question is...how will China take over the world? I mean China is a basically atheistic state...why would God bless them with power?

I'm pretty interested in history and it looks to me like powerful states have risen and fallen and it didn't really have to do with whether or not they followed Christian values. It has to do with things like...whether or not they have natural resources...how good their generals are...if they can build a good economy...if they can hold their territory. So I just think it's weird to say that God is involved here.

Look at the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was pagan. It was one of the greatest powers in all of history. It eventually converted to Christianity, but it was around that time that it started to weaken (not saying there is a correlation, just pointing out that it's the opposite of what someone who follows the "God blesses Christian states" idea would think. If that idea were true...Rome should have become EVEN MORE powerful at this point).

Look at the Arabic caliphate...I mean they conquered a giant area of territory and built a prosperous cultural and scientific civilization...and they were Muslims. They eventually fell due to the Mongols and Turks...more pagans. Was God helping the pagans?

Look at the Ottomans. They too built a prosperous civilization...which was Muslim.

I mean how did the Chinese ever build powerful civilizations? They were Taoist and Confucian and Buddhist.

I just don't see where God is involved here.

I mean the Dutch were a Christian civilization and they built a powerful trading empire...based on abuse of natives and trading slaves. Was God blessing them? I hope he wasn't blessing them in that...

It's very much just...civilizations who have natural resources, good economies, good armies, good generals etc. become successful and it seems to be independent of what religion they are following. That's the point I'm trying to make. They come and go...but that's just how it works!

If nothing else, a lesson... from this revealing discourse between Abraham and the Lord, it is evident that it is dependent upon the number of righteous folk left living amongst the wicked whether God destroys them in one fell swoop or not. In this case, there was only four remaining righteous in Sodom, Lot and his wife and daughters, which wasn't enough to dissuade God's purging of that abominable homosexual society. Very sobering to a wise mind...

(Gen 18:17) And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;


(Gen 18:18) Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?


(Gen 18:19) For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.


(Gen 18:20) And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;


(Gen 18:21) I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.


(Gen 18:22) And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.


(Gen 18:23) And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?


(Gen 18:24) Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?


(Gen 18:25) That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?


(Gen 18:26) And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.


(Gen 18:27) And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:


(Gen 18:28) Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

(Gen 18:29) And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.


(Gen 18:30) And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.


(Gen 18:31) And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.


(Gen 18:32) And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.


(Gen 18:33) And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

 

[TLK Valentine]

You need to see that from a different viewpoint. Why are the people who believe God does create disasters to display His wrath so sure climate change is impossible?

I'm not just talking about climate change; I mean in general -- if one sees God or the devil behind every misfortune, how likely are they to recognize the consequences of their own actions?