Does God live inside our observable universe?

[stephen583]

Of course God exists in the "observable" universe ! Any doctrine to the contrary would be extra-biblical. Every rock, every tree, every molecule of water on earth, the entire universe attests to the presence, nature and understanding of God. That is what the Bible says anyways.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world ARE CLEARLY SEEN, being UNDERSTOOD by the THINGS THAT ARE MADE, even his eternal Godhead; so they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).

The scientific method of "observation" of the natural world is the only way to understand God.

"Science without religion is blind, and religion without science is lame" (Albert Einstein).

 

[geiroffenberg]

Perfect sense for describing a physical being!

Not at all applicable to describing an Infinite Spirit said to have created the universe itself.

I dont yet understand why though, if he is a spirit and the spirit "hovered upon the water (or the formless) which must have been himself since nothing was yet created, then it follows that everyword he spoke caused the formation of what we concider "matter".
So basically, it is literally true that "God is one", he is the "i am", not the existing one, but the one who is existance itself...he is not material, but he is trough his word formed himself into what we pereceive as matter....who isnt anything else but energy perceived as form and colors and sounds anyway. I dont see how god can be omnipresent if he is not IN his creation.

 

[geiroffenberg]

I don't know. Why don't you ask him?

why dont you ask him and tell us what he told you, oh prophet that speaks to god face to face.

 

[geiroffenberg]

Omnipresent does not need to imply Him being a part of the Creation He made. How can the potter make himself a piece of pot?

I believe omnipresence implies exactly that. If he is not part of anything, then he is not omnipresent.
But maybe your view of creation is that it is not actually reality - something we could find many verses for in the bible - and thats the only way i can see this come together. The potter can of course not make himself a piece of pot, but he is not claiming to be omnipresent, but God claims he is, and there is nobody besides him and there is nowhere we can go where he is not. So i still cant wrap my head around this lol.

If God were a physical being then the implication is a "in" everything might make more sense, but then we would all and everything we see would be a "part" of God. In essence though we would no longer really exist as self, but just as a functioning piece filling a purpose/role of something bigger - essentially the only self. Concepts like these are at the heart of much of eastern mysticism. Which is why though seemingly relatively harmless ideas of themselves leading to such thoughts, would be the reason Christians should absolutely reject such notions out right - like the idea string theory might explain how everything really is literally a "piece" of God.

Yes, but why reject this view - specially since the hebrew bible very much is easter and mystic!
what is wrong with it? It seems the doctrine of the omnipresence of God demands he is in everything. Not giong to turn buddist, so far it looks like to me it belongs well inside the bibical world view.

God is Spirit and as The Spirit who created everything else we see (and don't see like other spirits) is not a "part" of everything. This was the meaning behind Saint Thomas's and others statement of God is "utterly simple" - no parts compared to everything He made - things that can be broken down into parts.

Definitly god is spirit and not material, but how can matter exist unless god the word manifest it, what did he form it from except himself. They say he formed it out of nothing...how can there be nothing if god is onmipresent? Where is this nothing where god is not, lol. And how can anything exist without and outside of an onmipresent creator? If we go there, and god isnt there, how can god be omnipresent?
It just doesnt make sense to me. Im trying to find that point where it makes sense.

 

[Sammy-San]

The heaven I am referring to is the heaven where He and his angels reside.

If it isnt infinite, what is past? A wall of infinite nothingness?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I dont yet understand why though, if he is a spirit and the spirit "hovered upon the water (or the formless) which must have been himself since nothing was yet created, then it follows that everyword he spoke caused the formation of what we concider "matter".
So basically, it is literally true that "God is one", he is the "i am", not the existing one, but the one who is existance itself...he is not material, but he is trough his word formed himself into what we pereceive as matter....who isnt anything else but energy perceived as form and colors and sounds anyway. I dont see how god can be omnipresent if he is not IN his creation.

Again a very eastern mysticism idea, a core belief in Hinduism. Also apparently growing in popularity among some Christian groups. That we can't fully comprehend an existence so different from our own does not make it OK to attempt to make Him more understandable to us by insisting He exists in a manner we think we might or eventually science might be able to explain. Not going to happen.

The concepts of pantheism might sound appealing perhaps as opposed to not being able to fully explain something, but it has profound theological implications that are destructive to Christian faith. There are multitudes of variations of thought which arise, not saying that everyone believing this about God reaches all these conclusions, no. However people pondering exactly such thoughts eons before any of us has given rise to all the various eastern religions and the variations of thoughts within them about our existence. All with the core thought that is no different than this same notion that God is all in all.

Just a few Examples. If am going to say the far away galaxy that is a pin point of light when it reaches our eye contains a part of God (because He is a part of everything) then in what sense could I ever say that He, all of Him, is right here with us right now. The best we ever get is a part of God, and we know that because we are saying at the same time He is said to be with us, we know a part of Him is over there. So in a real physical sense, God is everywhere but no where in particular and perhaps even no where at all (as in just the impersonal force holding everything together of which we are simply a collective part).

The idea likely occurs if God is a part of everything and everyone, then it what since is Christianity the one true religion. Other religions become just variation of the same theme and we are all worshiping the same God who we are all a piece of. In a very literal implication of that concept one could even posit that "I am God" because all that I am is a piece of Him, yet obviously we are limited creatures so in further contemplation of self that self is just a piece of something bigger, and so everyone and everything is in a sense a reflection of what oneself is - because it is all part of a bigger hole.

We might not see the danger of attempting to teach young Christians not yet solid in the foundation of their faith the idea that God is literally "in" everything, but the concept leaves such a person open to the influence of eastern religious thoughts and mysticism, which can be appealing to the typical rebellious tendencies of our youth. Also can be appealing to someone going through great struggles at any point in life to be exposed to feeling better because they are told they just need to align what they actually are (part of everything) with everything else and it will all be OK. So they take an innocent yoga class with a sincere desire to improve health and the next thing you know they are exposed to more mystic thoughts that now appeal to them because they have this idea that it helps explain what they believe is a Christian view of God. This is leading them away from Christianity and into something else entirely.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I believe omnipresence implies exactly that. If he is not part of anything, then he is not omnipresent.
But maybe your view of creation is that it is not actually reality - something we could find many verses for in the bible - and thats the only way i can see this come together. The potter can of course not make himself a piece of pot, but he is not claiming to be omnipresent, but God claims he is, and there is nobody besides him and there is nowhere we can go where he is not. So i still cant wrap my head around this lol.



Yes, but why reject this view - specially since the hebrew bible very much is easter and mystic!
what is wrong with it? It seems the doctrine of the omnipresence of God demands he is in everything. Not giong to turn buddist, so far it looks like to me it belongs well inside the bibical world view.



Definitly god is spirit and not material, but how can matter exist unless god the word manifest it, what did he form it from except himself. They say he formed it out of nothing...how can there be nothing if god is onmipresent? Where is this nothing where god is not, lol. And how can anything exist without and outside of an onmipresent creator? If we go there, and god isnt there, how can god be omnipresent?
It just doesnt make sense to me. Im trying to find that point where it makes sense.

Ok, try it another way.

Omnipresent is referring to a Person who is Spirit. That is saying that Person has the ability to be everywhere simultaneously. If I say a person is with me, I mean either that they are in close proximity or they have my back/support me. That is different from saying I know a "person" is close to me and supports me because that "person" is not just "in" me, but is literally what I am. The thought being I "exist" as a part of that "person". Furthering that thought, that rock over there is not just similar to what I am but is literally also what I am, just another piece or reflection of the same "existence". Same as the rock light years away from me. In fact what I am believing I am, exists everywhere and is everything (all in all). So with that belief, in what sense can we really say there is a "person" at all, especially "with us" as in essence we are saying we (and everything) are all that "person". That is not what is meant by Omnipresence of a Person.

That is why Christianity has always rejected pantheism and the notions that sprout from such thoughts.

 

[pshun2404]

the Universe lives within God and He permeates all space/time as we know it. There is nowhere in this Universe where God is not. But He is greater than ALL. He thus does not live IN heaven (the place of the throne of God and His knowable presence) as this is the realm in which His creatures can dwell with and be WITH Him

 

[SolomonVII]

Does God live inside our observable universe?

God is both fully transcendant and fully immanent to his creation.
Such is the nature of a Triune God.

 

[Neogaia777]

Does God live inside our observable universe?

God is everywhere, very, very far and beyond, and also, very, very near, in every fiber of our being and in our hearts, and in all of everything material, from a layer of it that is immaterial but can manipulate and control the material we know...

Another "dimension" or from other dimensions, some would call it... He is an and the ultimate bioelelectrochemical engineer, and created the biological electrochemical stuff (machinery) that we know...

He uses sub-atomic "stuff" from a place beyond, or a layer under, or over, all of that "stuff"... They/it is/are like his lego or erector set... from which he constructs, manipulates, or creates what we know...

This stuff is a "simulation" to him, and not really "real" compared to where he is at, or operates from... In this way he is also like a computer programmer...

God Bless!

 

[sparow]

Does God live inside our observable universe?

Of course God lives inside our observable universe; a good question maybe does God also live outside our observable universe.

God is always close by; Jeremiah 29:13 (NKJV)
13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

That was 2600 years ago and Jesus said He would be with us always.

 

[rockytopva]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning - James 1:17

All mass is from God, and is God. Everything from God is Good. I would say that the mass in the universe was once God, and that he longs for his mass back so he can do something else with it.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10

God is going to turn all mass back into the plasma energy from whence it was forged and do something else with it! I want to be with him to see what he does with it!

 

[geiroffenberg]

Again a very eastern mysticism idea, a core belief in Hinduism. Also apparently growing in popularity among some Christian groups.

That may be so, I don't know practically anything about hindusim, but this is how far i understand it from the bible! I didnt quote hinduism or buddah! And of course, it would be foolish of me to counter any idea i got from the bible JUST because it is also believed by non bible readers.

That we can't fully comprehend an existence so different from our own does not make it OK to attempt to make Him more understandable to us by insisting He exists in a manner we think we might or eventually science might be able to explain. Not going to happen.

Hey, now! I am trying to understand what you are saying, i haven't as far as i know mentioned science just reffered to scripture, maybe i am guilty of trying to make him "more understandable" or what ever, but at least it should be possible to understand something that si written about in the bible?

Im simply asking how can god be omnipresent if he has nothing to do with this creation? I had no problem with saying he doesn recide or live anywhere since he is everywhere, but you said "is no way a piece or part of the universe He made"...

Now HOW can he in no way be part of the universe he made if he is omnipresent? Is there any where god is not? Is there any part of creation that exists outside of God?

I dont see how my view of literal omnipresent is "eastern" philosophy and not firmly sourced in scrpiture. Pls explain it.

The concepts of pantheism

I havent mentioned pantheism! But if pantheism means god is omnipresent then it must be true or the bible is wrong. Or is there places where god is not?

might sound appealing perhaps as opposed to not being able to fully explain something

Then i think i finally start to see that this is not possible to explain?

that is no different than this same notion that God is all in all.

But isnt that a parapharse from the several bible verses? Like ef 4:6 "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." or 1 cor 15:28: "the Son also Himself be subject unto Him, that God may be all in all."

If am going to say the far away galaxy that is a pin point of light when it reaches our eye contains a part of God (because He is a part of everything) then in what sense could I ever say that He, all of Him, is right here with us right now.

Maybe im too stupid or was dropped on my head when i was a baby, but i have no problem believing this is absolutely true - that the whole of who he is is omnipresent. I wouldnt argue against or claim i understood it, but to say otherwise would deny his omnipresence IMO.
I wouldnt RESTRICT god to the rules of a three dimentional creation, but i also wouldnt deny he is omnipresent. I have no åproblems accepting he is both, but i can not deny omnipresence.

In a very literal implication of that concept one could even posit that "I am God" because all that I am is a piece of Him, yet obviously we are limited creatures so in further contemplation of self that self is just a piece of something bigger, and so everyone and everything is in a sense a reflection of what oneself is - because it is all part of a bigger hole.

Id say, no, it would line up with the claim that "christ in us, the hope of glory" is literally true. How could only a part of god or a part of christ in us be more in line with pauls teaching than "christ in us" himself, meaning all of him. He is god the word. Isnt literally "the kingdom" within as jesus said, or just a part? Did jesus promse with the spirit would both the father and the son live with us, or just part of him parsed out to all? It may be eastern mysticism, but i DONT see how it denies the very basic teaching of omnipresence that runs troughout all the bible.

Also can be appealing to someone going through great struggles at any point in life to be exposed to feeling better because they are told they just need to align what they actually are (part of everything) with everything else and it will all be OK.

So, if its true that i am "one spirit with the lord", i shouldnt align my mind with that teaching despite it making me feel better? I got my view as far as i can see it from the bible. Of course, you woudl udnerstand, if you can not convince me of otherwise, i would definitly align my mind with my "oneness" with God, who is in me. If i claimed go is not in me, and thjat i am not one spirit with him, how can i call myself a believer, these are all bible verses from pauls teaching. Someone must convince me that they are wrong, if i should deny them and stopped believe them, and so far, i dont see anyone doing that

So they take an innocent yoga class with a sincere desire to improve health and the next thing you know they are exposed to more mystic thoughts that now appeal to them because they have this idea that it helps explain what they believe is a Christian view of God. This is leading them away from Christianity and into something else entirely.

Dude, noone has talked about hindusim, yoga, panteism or anything like that, You all bhrought that up. I am literally only refering to the bible, i have LOADS of verses i cant get away from about this, both from the beginning of the bible, from the teachings of jesus, and from the letters of the apostels. All trough them i see the teaching of a omnipresent god that manfiested this world trough the word, which is god from the beginning, and this same word became flesh, but the message when he came wasnt that the kingdom once would come into this world, but that it is already here, in fact not only among us, but "within you", can he said that even to the pharasees that killed him. Then paul teaches the same thing, and so my questino still is the same, is there anywhere god IS NOT?

 

[SkyWriting]

Does God live inside our observable universe?

Only as Jesus did for a time.

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

 

[geiroffenberg]

Only as Jesus did for a time.

Then if God only lived inside this creation for a time, how can he be omnipresent?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That may be so, I don't know practically anything about hindusim, but this is how far i understand it from the bible! I didnt quote hinduism or buddah! And of course, it would be foolish of me to counter any idea i got from the bible JUST because it is also believed by non bible readers.



Hey, now! I am trying to understand what you are saying, i haven't as far as i know mentioned science just reffered to scripture, maybe i am guilty of trying to make him "more understandable" or what ever, but at least it should be possible to understand something that si written about in the bible?

Im simply asking how can god be omnipresent if he has nothing to do with this creation? I had no problem with saying he doesn recide or live anywhere since he is everywhere, but you said "is no way a piece or part of the universe He made"...

Now HOW can he in no way be part of the universe he made if he is omnipresent? Is there any where god is not? Is there any part of creation that exists outside of God?

I dont see how my view of literal omnipresent is "eastern" philosophy and not firmly sourced in scrpiture. Pls explain it.



I havent mentioned pantheism! But if pantheism means god is omnipresent then it must be true or the bible is wrong. Or is there places where god is not?



Then i think i finally start to see that this is not possible to explain?



But isnt that a parapharse from the several bible verses? Like ef 4:6 "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." or 1 cor 15:28: "the Son also Himself be subject unto Him, that God may be all in all."






Maybe im too stupid or was dropped on my head when i was a baby, but i have no problem believing this is absolutely true - that the whole of who he is is omnipresent. I wouldnt argue against or claim i understood it, but to say otherwise would deny his omnipresence IMO.
I wouldnt RESTRICT god to the rules of a three dimentional creation, but i also wouldnt deny he is omnipresent. I have no åproblems accepting he is both, but i can not deny omnipresence.





Id say, no, it would line up with the claim that "christ in us, the hope of glory" is literally true. How could only a part of god or a part of christ in us be more in line with pauls teaching than "christ in us" himself, meaning all of him. He is god the word. Isnt literally "the kingdom" within as jesus said, or just a part? Did jesus promse with the spirit would both the father and the son live with us, or just part of him parsed out to all? It may be eastern mysticism, but i DONT see how it denies the very basic teaching of omnipresence that runs troughout all the bible.



So, if its true that i am "one spirit with the lord", i shouldnt align my mind with that teaching despite it making me feel better? I got my view as far as i can see it from the bible. Of course, you woudl udnerstand, if you can not convince me of otherwise, i would definitly align my mind with my "oneness" with God, who is in me. If i claimed go is not in me, and thjat i am not one spirit with him, how can i call myself a believer, these are all bible verses from pauls teaching. Someone must convince me that they are wrong, if i should deny them and stopped believe them, and so far, i dont see anyone doing that



Dude, noone has talked about hindusim, yoga, panteism or anything like that, You all bhrought that up. I am literally only refering to the bible, i have LOADS of verses i cant get away from about this, both from the beginning of the bible, from the teachings of jesus, and from the letters of the apostels. All trough them i see the teaching of a omnipresent god that manfiested this world trough the word, which is god from the beginning, and this same word became flesh, but the message when he came wasnt that the kingdom once would come into this world, but that it is already here, in fact not only among us, but "within you", can he said that even to the pharasees that killed him. Then paul teaches the same thing, and so my questino still is the same, is there anywhere god IS NOT?

Not foolish, but only a misguided or undirected approach could arrive at such notions behind the mysticism of something like God is "all in all" using the Bible alone. Not necessary a fault of the person or the Bible. Even the man on the side of the rode needed help understanding the OT. There are huge resources out there for all main stream Christian denominations. Am of course partial to one style, but I do read others on occasion to gain a better perspective on their view.

I find I do better here not making things personal and try hard not to direct my reply at a person but to the ideas being presented, whether it fits with other ideas presented in the thread or not. I see this whole thread as a discussion and assume everyone at least might read along as I do. In this case, even if you had made no call to science, plenty of others have been and the idea of God literally "in" everything or "all in all" plays nicely into the "scientific" thoughts being inserted into this thread. So I tied the thoughts together, not claiming anyone in particular made the association, but that any reader might and I thought it important to address as both concepts lead to the same idea you did post. Did not mean to accuse you or anyone. Someone did proclaim perhaps string theory can explain how God is everywhere and another post said something like maybe that is God.

How is He omnipresent and not a "piece" of everything, as in how is that possible? I do not think that is answerable in any fulling satisfying and certainly not in any scientific means. That it must be necessarily so comes from logic. An Intelligent designer, Creator of everything from nothing, is said to be both Infinite and Omnipresent. Now force that last part into a physical sense - a "body" that large and everywhere literally leaves no room for there really "being" anything else. Everything would actually be a piece of Him and in a very real sense we would be saying He made Himself.
In a real existential sense of some unified collective parts that "exist" together as the universe (can't really call that God anymore- call it the force), we thereby become just a piece of a bigger "thing" and the idea of "self" melds into a collective whole. The rock over there is just as much me as I am me, just a different reflection of "one" reality. Wow, sounds like part of a movie plot. Anyway that may not accurately depict any particular eastern religion but everyone should get the general idea. Which is actually a part of the purpose of asking oneself "is it better that I am or that I am not" - which is a core question behind I think it is Hinduism. The Christian must answer that it is better "to be", the eastern mystic definitely not so much, as letting go of the idea of "self" is usually what is said as leading to enlightenment.

Look stuff up if one is not sure. Pantheism comes in many forms but the general idea is God is material, as in a part of everything - sound familiar now? Then look up why the Church first and later Protestors of the Church, well most of them, would fight that concept, and how they did it, which often related to Scripture as well as other already accepted "truths".(Infinite Spirit, Alpha Omega, Omnipresent, Omniscience...etc)

Can science, which is meant to make the physical world more understandable to us, ever fully explain to us what is outside that physical world - the metaphysical - short answer no(at least use to be). They do not generally attempt to as we have no means to observe what is a part of the material world around us. Cannot see that "world", not now anyway. Is that a problem? Only for those who insist on scientific support for everything believed to be true. Which BTW even scientist don't insist that much.

People attempt to paraphrase the Bible all the time, but if that effort drives one away from Christian truths, why even accept the notion that maybe there is something to a supposed comparison from Scripture to an "all in all". Seems harmless, but the more one's scratches that itch, the deeper the wound goes, next thing you know "human sacrifice, dogs and cats are living together, mass hysteria" or perhaps something less than a who you gonna call apocalyptic in nature thought - say the idea our gender is fluid. Harmless thought, maybe seems so, dig deeper not so much. So if one does not understand why the idea is harmful to the faith, then do something to help understand why so many Christian geniuses (and others not so much) before us did. CF is little help for that.

Am just saying be careful and nurture a Christian faith, grow in the knowledge rather than just toy with ideas to see if something fits/agrees with what you read in the Bible. Use the work others for eons now going before us, who have done all the work already to show us how the Bible is to be properly understood and already fought against exactly all these ideas already in defense of Christianity. Stand on the shoulders of giants if one wants a better a view rather than attempt to experiment oneself on something as important as we all are, to a potentially destructive risk of even one's eternal fate. We did not get to the moon by a bunch of people sitting under apple trees with each of them separately trying to figure it all out. Their are no giants on these boards, and quick and easy answers are often not the right ones or ones that can be properly understood. Start with ones local Church, many may have to quickly look elsewhere once the resources there are exhausted.

So I was not kidding when I suggested such thoughts are not harmless, but destructive to Christian faith, which requires we honor the dignity of our Creator gave all life, but especially human life - the only form we know that is said was made in His Image (in some aspect - most say the soul). That sort of life cannot be treated with a careless abandon that the thought maybe better that I "not be" should ever occur from reading the Bible, much less have reading the Bible lead on down a path that could lead to asking that question. Work out one's faith as the Apostle declared to salvation "with fear and trembling" Philippians 2:12. He did not mean do that alone.

 

[SkyWriting]

Then if God only lived inside this creation for a time, how can he be omnipresent?

He also remains outside of time as the Father as well as the Creator and the Spirit.

 

[SkyWriting]

How is He omnipresent and not a "piece" of everything, as in how is that possible? I do not think that is answerable in any fulling satisfying and certainly not in any scientific means.

Certainly. God is Spirit.
Science cannot manipulate or reproduce Spirit, so Spirit is not Scientific.
But if there is only one Creator (I said IF. I'm doomed...Oh Great Pumpkin, where are you?)
then all of creation around us reflects His glory.

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Certainly. God is Spirit.
Science cannot manipulate or reproduce Spirit, so Spirit is not Scientific.
But if there is only one Creator (Great Pumpkin, where are you?)
then all of creation around us reflects His glory.

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

correct

 

[geiroffenberg]

He also remains outside of time as the Father as well as the Creator and the Spirit.

Still, how is he omnipresent if he remains outside creation?