Does God learn from Man? Is God all-knowing?

[Blissman]

Did The Lord learn from man? Had He made mistakes?

If God is all knowing, then why did he not know that every event that lead up to His need for the great flood? Could He not have 'designed' Man differently?
Why wouldn't He be able to know before it would happen, if man would eat from the tree of knowlege (and be thrown out of Eden). Why did He give Man free will? Does God learn from Man? Do we surprise Him? Are people incapable of free will also incapable of Sin?

 

[onajourney87]

If God is all knowing, then why did he not know that every event that lead up to His need for the great flood? Could He not have 'designed' Man differently?
Why wouldn't He be able to know before it would happen, if man would eat from the tree of knowlege (and be thrown out of Eden). Why did He give Man free will?

Throughout the Bible, we find that God wants to have a loving relationship with man. That was one of(if not THE) original intent when He created man. But, you can't have a loving relationship with robots. You can only have a loving relationship with something that has free will. You can only be loved by something that has the choice to love you or not love you.

Does God learn from Man? Do we surprise Him?

You just said God was all knowing, I think that answers those two questions.

Are people incapable of free will also incapable of Sin?

I think that if people were incapable of free will, they would be incapable of committing sin. Look at a robot.

osm

 

[ps139]

Osmaker has hit the nail on the head. In Isaiah, this subject is often addressed - man is like the clay, God is the potter. What can the clay say to the potter?

 

[Blissman]

The clay has free will. The man can say to the Creator.
Look at Cain and Able. Did God learn from Cain?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Did The Lord learn from man? Had He made mistakes?

If God is all knowing, then why did he not know that every event that lead up to His need for the great flood? Could He not have 'designed' Man differently?
Why wouldn't He be able to know before it would happen, if man would eat from the tree of knowlege (and be thrown out of Eden). Why did He give Man free will? Does God learn from Man? Do we surprise Him? Are people incapable of free will also incapable of Sin?

He did know the flood was going to happen. It was foreordained. But even so, it still hurts Him bitterly when it happens.

We have a free will, but I must qualify it in that we have a sin nature. So we can never choose that which is good without divine appointment. We can desire and recieve this divine appointment, as our slavation works in cooperation between God's will and ours. God's priorities are different from ours.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Osmaker has hit the nail on the head. In Isaiah, this subject is often addressed - man is like the clay, God is the potter. What can the clay say to the potter?

Jeremiah 18 includes a more extended potter/clay metaphor.

But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.
---Jeremiah 18:4

 

[Crazy Liz]

He did know the flood was going to happen. It was foreordained. But even so, it still hurts Him bitterly when it happens.

That's not exactly the sense I read in Genesis 6:

And the LORD repented that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man and beast, and the creeping animal, and the fowls of the air; for I repent that I have made them.

The way this was written doesn't make it sound like this was foreordained.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

That's not exactly the sense I read in Genesis 6:

The way this was written doesn't make it sound like this was foreordained.

To repent simply means to turn away from something. God uses human metaphors so we can understand Him. It doesn't mean He was surprised.

Acts 2 * *

2:23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

2:24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Ephesians 2 * *
2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained F5 that we should walk in them.

Romans 8 * *

8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

1 Corinthians 2 * *

2:7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Genesis 3 * *

3:14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

There are so many verses showing the predestination and ordinance of God. I'm happy to give you more, if you want. But even in prophecy we can see it.

 

[dan00000]

And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain." (Deuteronomy 2:34)

[font=Arial, Helvetica]"And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves." [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica](Deuteronomy 3:6-7)[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]"The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica] (Psalms 58:10)[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."[font=Arial, Helvetica] (Isaiah 13:15-16)[/font]

Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)
[/font]

 

[MoonlessNight]

I think that the best example of God learning anything from man is when Abraham confronts God about Soddom and Gommorah, and has to convince God to be just. There's no way around it really. God is set to destroy the cities, but decides to tell Abraham. Abraham begs God to spare the city if enough righteous men are found. Abraham even has the audacity to ask God "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?" (Genesis 18.25) And in the end, he does change God's mind, and it seems that he convinced God that his way was indeed the just way. If that was so, then God did learn something from Abraham.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I think that the best example of God learning anything from man is when Abraham confronts God about Soddom and Gommorah, and has to convince God to be just. There's no way around it really. God is set to destroy the cities, but decides to tell Abraham. Abraham begs God to spare the city if enough righteous men are found. Abraham even has the audacity to ask God "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?" (Genesis 18.25) And in the end, he does change God's mind, and it seems that he convinced God that his way was indeed the just way. If that was so, then God did learn something from Abraham.

God already knows what He is going to do. But He uses natural means, which He created, of course, to fulfill His will. The problem isn't that God isn't bigger than all He created, the problem is, He needs to talk down to us so we can understand Him. He is all-knowing.

 

[Salsa_1960]

Perhaps God chooses block some things out of his mind, so to speak. Perhaps he chooses to see only certain portions of things at a time (even though He's capable of seeing more).

I think of when Christ was here on earth. He was capable of reading his disciples minds and yet he spoke to them like friends. Like I might speak to another person that I know. He asked Peter, "Do you love me?" (Even though he knew what was in Peter's heart and what he would answer).

God gives us the option to make our own choices. We talk about God having "foreknowlege." We debate "predestination" and yet we are very careful when discussing/considering these matters because it is made clear to us in the Bible that we aren't God's "puppets," but rather we are individuals with our own "free will."

To take that away would make us like computers or robots.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

In reagrds to free will or sovereignty, many people believe it's one or the other. It's actually both. God does predetermine all things; the Bible is clear about that. But He interacts with our wills-the natural means by which God fulfills His predetermined will. All it takes is one look into the sky to realize how big God is and what temporal breaths of wind we are. He doesn't think like we do; He doesn't have our priorities. He's sovereign.

 

[Salsa_1960]

...All it takes is one look into the sky to realize how big God is and what temporal breaths of wind we are. He doesn't think like we do; He doesn't have our priorities. He's sovereign.

And yet, at the same time, God is able to understand our needs and our priorities. Christ lived on this earth and can empathize with us because he lived through what we are experiencing-- and more. He intercedes (to the Father) for us.

So even though God is sovereign, and could choose to see our needs and concerns as trite, I don't believe He holds that view because He's also a loving God.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Very well said.

 

[MoonlessNight]

God already knows what He is going to do. But He uses natural means, which He created, of course, to fulfill His will. The problem isn't that God isn't bigger than all He created, the problem is, He needs to talk down to us so we can understand Him. He is all-knowing.

The problem that I have with this sort of interpretation is that the only way you could get it from the text is if you already held the belief that God is all-knowing. Any work can be interpreted in nearly any way if one tries hard enough, but that does not mean that that was how it was meant to be seen, or that is how the average person would see it. I can't say I didn't expect a response like this, because it's probably the way the story looks from a Christian perspective, but not already adhering to that belief system, the interpretation looks ridiculous to me. To me it's plain as day. Abraham is persuading God, and God is listening. Nowhere in the text can I find anything that would suggest that God is actually omniscient unless you already held that belief. Indeed, I have trouble finding anything in all of Genesis that would suggest that God is omniscient (very knowledgeable yes, but completely omniscient? That's hard to proove through Genesis alone).

It may sound like I'm being overly harsh, but really I don't dissaprove of your interpretation. I'm just fed up with having the interpreations that seem clear to me quickly dismissed because they don't fit nicely into the Christian perspective.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

The problem that I have with this sort of interpretation is that the only way you could get it from the text is if you already held the belief that God is all-knowing. Any work can be interpreted in nearly any way if one tries hard enough, but that does not mean that that was how it was meant to be seen, or that is how the average person would see it. I can't say I didn't expect a response like this, because it's probably the way the story looks from a Christian perspective, but not already adhering to that belief system, the interpretation looks ridiculous to me. To me it's plain as day. Abraham is persuading God, and God is listening. Nowhere in the text can I find anything that would suggest that God is actually omniscient unless you already held that belief. Indeed, I have trouble finding anything in all of Genesis that would suggest that God is omniscient (very knowledgeable yes, but completely omniscient? That's hard to proove through Genesis alone).

It may sound like I'm being overly harsh, but really I don't dissaprove of your interpretation. I'm just fed up with having the interpreations that seem clear to me quickly dismissed because they don't fit nicely into the Christian perspective.

But I notice youre not using scripture to back up your points. You'd have to come up with some pretty fancy gymnastics to get around this. All the prophecies are foreknowledge. Look at all the scriptures I've posted on the subject already-they're only the tip of the iceberg.

Does it look ridiculous to you because it threatens personal sovereignty to have such a big God?

 

[Crazy Liz]

To repent simply means to turn away from something. God uses human metaphors so we can understand Him. It doesn't mean He was surprised.

...

There are so many verses showing the predestination and ordinance of God. I'm happy to give you more, if you want. But even in prophecy we can see it.

I'm sorry. I think you misunderstood. I never said God doesn't plan anything in advance or that God doesn't have the ability to carry out God's plans. I agree the verses you quoted all refer to God ordaining some things in advance.

My point was that God has not pre-programmed EVERYTHING in advance, even though God could have done so if God had so desired. God CAN be surprised because God CHOSE to create a world where everything was not pre-programmed in advance, and God CAN change God's mind on the basis of unprogrammed things that happen.

 

[tcampen]

I'm sorry. I think you misunderstood. I never said God doesn't plan anything in advance or that God doesn't have the ability to carry out God's plans. I agree the verses you quoted all refer to God ordaining some things in advance.

My point was that God has not pre-programmed EVERYTHING in advance, even though God could have done so if God had so desired. God CAN be surprised because God CHOSE to create a world where everything was not pre-programmed in advance, and God CAN change God's mind on the basis of unprogrammed things that happen.

Interestingly enough, this very statement, if true, means that God is NOT omnipotent, for an all knowing god cannot be suprized by anything, not even voluntarily. It all gets back to the irreconcilable dilemma of free will vs. omniscience.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I'm sorry. I think you misunderstood. I never said God doesn't plan anything in advance or that God doesn't have the ability to carry out God's plans. I agree the verses you quoted all refer to God ordaining some things in advance.

My point was that God has not pre-programmed EVERYTHING in advance, even though God could have done so if God had so desired. God CAN be surprised because God CHOSE to create a world where everything was not pre-programmed in advance, and God CAN change God's mind on the basis of unprogrammed things that happen.

How do you make this determination?