Does God Honor Man's "Free Will"?

[jimmyjimmy]

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[NOTWHATIWAS]

I'm glad the unsaved have the ability to make choices contrary to their nature. Adultery, lying, and murder would be uncontrolled if they couldn't. Do you know an unsaved person who does not commit adultery against his/her spouse? Do you know an unsaved person who is not a murderer? How is it they can make choices contrary to their nature?

Weave two different pieces of the same jigsaw puzzle here. Let's see if we can't get them closer together to determine if they can even fit together. Hopefully, this will make things a little clearer."No one can come to the father unless the Spirit draws Him"-I agree w/that. Once that happens, however, not everybody is automatically obedient to the Spirit's calling.Some choose to accept Christ and some choose to reject Him. God chooses to draw close to us. We choose to either accept or reject His bidding. He does not force His choice on us.We either obey Him or we don't. Freedom of choice.

 

[Born Again2004]

He can draw us to Himself. We can refuse to go. This is free will. If it didn't exist, everyone on the planet would be saved. He wants that none should perish but some will choose not to heed the Gospel when it is preached to them because we have free will. We do have the choice to go to Him to get strength to not follow our sin nature(the flesh) but to conform to His nature (the Spirit). This is also free will.

Of course he draws us all near!
Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
I know many who lean towards works must disassociate themselves from free will choice but, for me the above scripture is obvious....those who open the door. YOU HAVE to open the door! Google an look at all the pictures and paintings of this event...for all most all, look at the door handle...which side is it...on our side, not Jesus side....who opens the door. I look back and see now where Jesus has nock on my door for years...not until much later in life did I open the door and receive his free gift!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

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[Job8]

Rev 3:20 is not speaking of unbelievers. It's addressed to a church.

“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”​

A church can call itself a church and yet have none who are saved. So thanks for quoting the passage to show the spiritual condition of this church, with Christ standing outside the door and knocking: you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

Is this the description of those who have been born again and given the robe of righteousness and the gift of the Holy Ghost? When do you wish to stop misunderstanding what the Spirit had to say to these sinners?

 

[bling]

Rev 3:20 is not speaking of unbelievers. It's addressed to a church.

“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”​

The last time you used this I asked you:

So is it possible for these Christians at Laodicea to not hear and/or not open the door?
Why did he not say he would just enter and leave off them doing anything?
Does the opening of the door qualify as "working" to get something?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The last time you used this I asked you:

So is it possible for these Christians at Laodicea to not hear and/or not open the door?
Why did he not say he would just enter and leave off them doing anything?
Does the opening of the door qualify as "working" to get something?

I must have missed your post. Apologies for that.

Jesus is speaking to His church. A church that He is married to. In fact, maybe looking at a marriage that has grown cold would be a good parallel. The marriage is still in tact, but there is no intimacy because a spouse has some all-consuming interprets other than the other spouse.

These are Christians. I don't see opening the door akin to work in any way.

 

[Commander]

So it comes down to sinning or not sinning. Freewill is hell, predestination is salvation for your soul! With freewill you are scared to death to do anything for the fear that it might offend God, with predestination I know that all that I have done, or all that I will do that I was predestinated from God to do before the foundation of the world, and therein lies salvation for your soul. 2 Timothy 2:9 "Who(Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ) hath saved us(you, me and every other person), and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works(freewill), but according to his own purpose(predestinated) and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." Romans 8:30 tells us that he predestinated us, then he called us, then he justified us, and he also glorified us. 1 Corinthians 7:17 tells us that the Lord has called every one(you, me, and every other person). And 1 Timothy 4:10 states that He is the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe(and he either saved all/many/every or he saved none, the words are interchangeable according to the strongs dictionary). For in Romans 3:23 you will agree that it includes everyone? "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Some scripture about sinners(if you commit sin, you are a sinner). Sinners are separate from Jesus Christ(Hebrews 7:26); ungodly(Jude 1:15); God does not hear(John 9:31); the servant of sin(John 8:34); are in error/incorrect with their beliefs(James 5:20); have not seen neither known Jesus(1 John 3:6); are of the devil(1 John 3:8). Sinners need to repent(means change your mind) and believe the Gospel(Mark 1:15). 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin: for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." So, who is born of God? "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God(1 John 4:7)." Every one who loves! There is no longer anything there for you to sin against. He abolished, blotted it out and disannulled it! Have a blessed day knowing that our Lord and Saviour saved you.

 

[Commander]

Did God make Eve eat the fruit or by pride did she chose to be disobedient?
What I am trying to say is you can't deny election but , at the same time, you can't deny free will choice. I don't understand it all, but I know this, God is greater than we can imagine and this can not be understood from a carnal or physical mind set....it is a spiritual matter. Why is it our charge to spread the gospel to the unbeliever if God will not predestine then whether they choose him or not? What is the purpose of the gospel...witnessing? Let's just turn the page here, I acknowledge you belief and you acknowledge my belief!

Please understand that none of us or anyone one of us chose God, God chose us that is scriptural. That we chose him is not scriptural. Another verse that tell us this is 1 John 4:10 "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation(to render propitious, or favourably inclined; to appease, conciliate[one offended] for our sins." The great commission was given to the eleven disciples-see Matthew 28:16-20, not to you or me or anyone else. Did you know that the gospel has been preached to every creature which is under heaven? God's word is to be used in correction, for instruction in righteousness(2 Timothy 3:16). For when you know the truth it will set you free, and you will understand that that are no unbelievers in God. To know God is to believe in God, and everyone knows God. Have a blessed day, and keep studying to show thyself approved a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

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[EmSw]

Good point. There is little is any assurance of salvation in the Arminian soteriology. Your "decision" gets you in, and your determination keeps you in. The entire weigh is on your shoulders. How do I know? I carried it for 20 years!

So, obeying God was a burden to you. Fleeing sin, fleeing youthful lusts, cleansing yourself from all filthiness of the flesh, and laying aside all filthiness and wickedness just wasn't what you wanted to do, correct? Did you renew your mind to where obedience was a joy? Was keeping His commandments to prove you love Him just too much for you?

Jesus said His yoke was easy; John said His commandments aren't grievous.

http://renewingyourmind.org

My salvation is secured by an anchor reaching back before the foundations of the world, not to when I 'accepted' Him, but when He chose me. That's security.

That's security in hoping your are chosen. You hope your 'number' was picked in the Divine Lottery. Without anything on your part, there's absolutely nothing you can do to secure your 'number' being picked.

Since obeying Jesus was a weight on your shoulders, you found the easy way to salvation. Why obey when you can say you were chosen before the foundation of the world. Now you can live a life which isn't a burden to you, and eat the cake too. By the way, you have a 50/50 chance of being chosen, and you won't know until you die which way you are headed.

 

[bling]

Jesus is speaking to His church. A church that He is married to. In fact, maybe looking at a marriage that has grown cold would be a good parallel. The marriage is still in tact, but there is no intimacy because a spouse has some all-consuming interprets other than the other spouse.

The “threat” God just made to the Christians at Ephesus and might apply to all “churches” is: Rev. 2: 5…If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

So is that a blind thread or could it really happen?

Is God misleading us about what could happen if we do not repent?

You still did not answer the question: So is it possible for these Christians at Laodicea to not hear and/or not open the door?

Because if they cannot keep from opening the door (repenting of their refusing to open) than God is miss leading us with this message?

These are Christians. I don't see opening the door akin to work in any way.

Good, but you have to do “something” to allow Christ to come in and yet it is not a “work” worthy of anything, so “if this could be” analogues to the nonbeliever; the nonbeliever could do “something” which is not “work” to allow Christ to come into his/her life (the way the believer does it)?

 

[nobdysfool]

(Pro 26:21) As charcoal to hot embers and wood to fire, so is a contentious man for kindling strife.

(Rom 2:8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Contentiousness and argumentativeness is not a fruit of the Spirit. nor is the desire to pin someone down.

 

[Born Again2004]

Freedom of choice.

Freedom of choice started with Adam and Eve. Why "freedom of choice", why didn't God predestine them to obey and stay in the garden forever? Maybe "spiritually" God did predestine them to disobey and be removed form Eden but physically, the choice was theirs because God is just!

 

[NOTWHATIWAS]

Of course he draws us all near!
Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
I know many who lean towards works must disassociate themselves from free will choice but, for me the above scripture is obvious....those who open the door. YOU HAVE to open the door! Google an look at all the pictures and paintings of this event...for all most all, look at the door handle...which side is it...on our side, not Jesus side....who opens the door. I look back and see now where Jesus has nock on my door for years...not until much later in life did I open the door and receive his free gift!

I also didn't open the door until later in life. Glad I did- All that wasted time chasing my own tail when I could have just opened the door. Praise God that is no longer the case. Glad you opened the door too. Glad you made that choice. God bless you.

 

[bling]

Good point. There is little is any assurance of salvation in the Arminian soteriology. Your "decision" gets you in, and your determination keeps you in. The entire weigh is on your shoulders. How do I know? I carried it for 20 years!

http://renewingyourmind.org

My salvation is secured by an anchor reaching back before the foundations of the world, not to when I 'accepted' Him, but when He chose me. That's security.

I agree with EmSw, but would add:

There is no “security” with Calvinism, because we have all seen “devout strong Christians” who from all indications turn away (or as Calvinist would say; “never were but showed to be hypocrites all their life”) in the end. So how do you know any more than non-Calvinist knows; you will not turn away in the end like these other “Christians”?

Where is there comfort in believing: “there is a God that has no problem with sending people exactly like yourself to hell and yet would not send you also (and really for the same reason)”?

My “security” is in the fact I have the birthright to eternal life that cannot be stolen, taken from me and even God will not take it from me, but I have to intentionally give it up. It is my right that is totally secure in my hands and I can fully understand why I is mine, since those that do not have it have refused to accept God’s charity as charity (there is a logical just/fair reason I have it as compared to there being absolutely no reason [under Calvinism]).

If I do “give up” my birthright I have no one to blame but myself and it is what I wanted to do. If I do not want to give up my birthright eternal life is totally secure.

I know I have this birthright of eternal life in heaven since I know I have the indwelling Holy Spirit, God keeps His promises.

 

[Near]

If God truly honored man's free will, why didn't He just leave Adam and Eve to their choice of death and disobedience?

This doesn't seem to be a question about whether or not freewill exists, but rather God's response to actions made out of freewill.

I do not believe that God "honors man's free will", which I why I ask those of you who do, why did He interfere with man after Adam & Eve disobeyed Him? It's not consistent with the idea that God does not go against our will.
If you have an explanation that addresses the OP, please bring it.

I've not heard of any denomination teaching the idea that God doesn't go against man's will. It seems to be the case that if some of men's will is contrary to God's will, sin... then it seems that God is against their will, which is sin.

Yes. I agree with that. I believe it's called compatiblism; however, what I'm after is the idea that God folds His arms and waits for people to come to Him. I disagree with that notion.

It's not that he folds his arms and waits, rather the bible says that he is patient and long suffering.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Romans 2:4 Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you to repentance?

So, it does seem that he literally waits for people to come to repentance, and doesn't just kill us after one sin.

You are missing the point of the OP, which was written to challenge the idea that God doesn't intervene to save man because "He respects man's freewill".

I don't think that's phrased accurately. Whether he respects the notion of freewill is irrelevant. I believe he created us, endowed with freewill. It's the decisions we freely make, which is doesn't respect, especially when those decisions are ones of sin. If I decide to read the bible in the morning, I'd think he'd be pleased with that, but "respect" seems like a word to use for mere peers or those of lower status in society, "I respect dat homie".

The choice to sin is all we know how to do, which is precisely why we must be saved. We all choose sin, and we can choose nothing else (John 6:44).

The reason that we proclaim the gospel is that God uses, "means". He does not just zap someone walking down the street. He saves through His word, by the Holy Spirt.

The choice between having an hazelnut iced coffee or a caramel frappe from McDonalds exists.
Neither of those choices are sinful. Therefore, we can choose to do other things besides sin.

John 6: 44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
That verse doesn't negate freewill. I can choose to order the iced coffee, or the caramel frappe.

Have you ever done a word study on "draw"? It's interesting. It means "drag", it's used to explain drawing water from a well.
Can water refuse to be drawn from a well? Have you ever seen a woman speaking into a well, trying to coax the water to come to her?

If that's your argument against the notion that God's drawing is synergistic, then have you ever seen a man trying to draw in a big fish? It can be tedious work. It wants to swim away.

Secondly, I believe the verse after John 6:44 sheds light on how God draws people.

John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Hearing, and learning refer to certain truths. That truth is knowledge and wisdom which comes from God.

Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

So, that which saves is the truth (the opposite of lies). The truth, specifically of Jesus himself.
It's not a mere "zap" of changing one's mind without wisdom, or truth. It's a powerful laser-beam of wisdom and truth.

John 8: 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

And all of this truth pertains to the teachings of God, in practicing righteousness, sound doctrine, and etc.

 

[bling]

Please understand that none of us or anyone one of us chose God, God chose us that is scriptural. That we chose him is not scriptural. Another verse that tell us this is 1 John 4:10 "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation(to render propitious, or favourably inclined; to appease, conciliate[one offended] for our sins."

Everyone at the banquet was “chosen” (invited) by God to be there. The invitation to the truly huge wonderful banquet would be a huge “draw” for anyone and everyone, but that does not mean someone of their own free will could not refuse to go to the banquet (as shown in parables). Everyone that does go was drawn by the invitation and/or the words of the servants; who went to even the street people to get them to come (the master did not kidnap the street people to get them to come).

The great commission was given to the eleven disciples-see Matthew 28:16-20, not to you or me or anyone else. Did you know that the gospel has been preached to every creature which is under heaven? God's word is to be used in correction, for instruction in righteousness(2 Timothy 3:16). For when you know the truth it will set you free, and you will understand that that are no unbelievers in God. To know God is to believe in God, and everyone knows God. Have a blessed day, and keep studying to show thyself approved a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So we are not to follow the example Paul presented to us?

 

[Born Again2004]

I also didn't open the door until later in life. Glad I did- All that wasted time chasing my own tail when I could have just opened the door. Praise God that is no longer the case. Glad you opened the door too. Glad you made that choice. God bless you.

Thanks! I firmly believe in free choice but, I can not deny scripture and predestination. There are those who won't allow free choice but that predestination is only the way to salvation. I believe there must be a combination of free will and predestination.
There are many scriptures that reinforce free will for me and many have passages they use to support predestination. Here is one that many use for many doctrines but, also it assures me of choice. Ephesians 2:8-9......God calls your salvation a gift. It can be only a gift if the receiver chooses to take the gift or not....pretty simple!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The “threat” God just made to the Christians at Ephesus and might apply to all “churches” is: Rev. 2: 5…If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

So is that a blind thread or could it really happen?

Is God misleading us about what could happen if we do not repent?

You still did not answer the question: So is it possible for these Christians at Laodicea to not hear and/or not open the door?

Because if they cannot keep from opening the door (repenting of their refusing to open) than God is miss leading us with this message?



Good, but you have to do “something” to allow Christ to come in and yet it is not a “work” worthy of anything, so “if this could be” analogues to the nonbeliever; the nonbeliever could do “something” which is not “work” to allow Christ to come into his/her life (the way the believer does it)?

God wouldn't make an empty threat, but I would challenge you to think about "remove your lamp stand" as meaning something other than condemning you to Hell. I don't think it says that.

No one gets to Christ by their good deeds/works of the law. My only point is that that particular text is not directed to unbelievers. I would also agree with you that it does apply to all churches. The 7 churches are both actual churches and representative of all churches, hence the "seven".