Does God have to be real?

[EnemyOfReason]

As an atheist I find it shameful that theist demand that a god literally exist. To me this is just shameful considering that the Easter Bunny, Santa and numerous fictional characters do not exist yet they are meaningful to many people.

Why must god be real for it to be meaningful?

To me gods are only meaningful when you do not make them literal things. I love the stories of pagan gods and goddesses and they are meaningful to me without being real. Believe it or not but I have great love for the Qur'an and book of Psalms yet I find the fact that the intent behind them is malicious. What they attempt to express though is really beautiful because they attempt to provide purpose to human life although not well.

I understand why atheist mock theists for the things they do and I myself have a desire to mock them but not for the things they do, but the intent behind them.

Is prayer stupid? Yes it is.
But it is no more stupider then writing a letter to Santa.
What makes writing letters to Santa not stupid in many cases is that people know Santa is not real and just find the concept of writing a letter to Santa meaningful.

Is religious ritual stupid? Yes.
But so is military funeral rituals as they do nothing to bring a soldier back to life, but people do not deem them stupid because it is merely an act of honor not practical behavior.

I find nothing wrong with religious behavior but the intent behind it seem detrimental. Please comment on your feelings

 

[Zoness]

Well, to be fair its not interesting to engage a post that automatically calls all of us stupid so you'll forgive me if I keep my post short.

At any rate, rituals may be meaningless to some cosmic goal but they are a part of the human design in terms of establishing community, tradition and camaraderie. They are fundamental in augmenting the underlying structures that social animals like ourselves need to thrive so on that principle alone I don't see a problem with them. Plus, rituals aren't always religious in nature. In fact, I'd argue that the majority of habits and micro-rituals people do aren't religious in the slightest but rather are a matter of habit and structure in a world that can appear to have none.

Anyways since it sounds to me like the tone of the post is very negative so I don't think I have much more to register on it. I'm skeptical of the acts of major religions too but I don't think this makes for principled dialogue. Just my opinion.

 

[JackofSpades]

Stupid x 2, shameful, comparsion to santa claus?

That's alot of emotional language coming from cause usually claiming to be choice based on intellect and not on emotion.

And for the record, yes, god has to be real for me, it's as crucial for my theism than personal god not actually existing is for atheists worldview.

I can consider god being less than real as metaphysical speculation, but I'm basing my beliefs in assumption that there is god.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

Well, to be fair its not interesting to engage a post that automatically calls all of us stupid so you'll forgive me if I keep my post short.

Sorry I am writing from the perspective of how an Atheist feels when witnessing religion behavior. It is not an insult it is just how Atheists feel often times.

At any rate, rituals may be meaningless to some cosmic goal but they are a part of the human design in terms of establishing community, tradition and camaraderie. They are fundamental in augmenting the underlying structures that social animals like ourselves need to thrive so on that principle alone I don't see a problem with them. Plus, rituals aren't always religious in nature. In fact, I'd argue that the majority of habits and micro-rituals people do aren't religious in the slightest but rather are a matter of habit and structure in a world that can appear to have none.

This is why I dislike religion. Religion has claimed nothing exclusive to it. Dogma, god, ritual and morality all predate religion. Religion is just a way of taking cultural and social elements and meshing them into a package. The issue though is that the package is often times half baked.
This is why I like paganism so much. Paganism is not a package but functions as a buffet. It takes all and presents all but does not require everybody to accept all.
A pagan that does not like Thor is common. A Christian that does not like Jesus though is blasphemous.

Anyways since it sounds to me like the tone of the post is very negative so I don't think I have much more to register on it. I'm skeptical of the acts of major religions too but I don't think this makes for principled dialogue. Just my opinion.

The tone of it is confused not negative . You wanna hear negative then you should hear me on my epic rants.

 

[awitch]

Is it still shameful and stupid if I personally find it inspirational and have no expectations or demands that anyone believes or acts in accordance with my religious beliefs? Once you expect everyone to conform, then I tend to agree with you.

I don't really care if anyone mocks my faith as long as they aren't misrepresenting it. (Once they understand it, then they can mock it). I always say blasphemy is a victimless crime. Religions and religious people are certainly good at providing fodder for comedy so go for it.

Prayer is stupid? I suppose it is if you believe in an omnipotent god.

 

[JackofSpades]

I don't really care if anyone mocks my faith as long as they aren't misrepresenting it. (Once they understand it, then they can mock it).

I feel same way. It makes me anxious when people are mocking my beliefs after totally missunderstanding them. But I find it almost respectable if they mock me after actually understanding it.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

Stupid x 2, shameful, comparsion to santa claus?

That's alot of emotional language coming from cause usually claiming to be choice based on intellect and not on emotion.

No idea what you just said. Please rephrase.

And for the record, yes, god has to be real for me, it's as crucial for my theism than personal god not actually existing is for atheists worldview.

I can consider god being less than real as metaphysical speculation, but I'm basing my beliefs in assumption that there is god.

This is the part I am curious about.
Do you believe god created the world? Do you think he/she intervenes in earthly affairs?
For the longest time I did not think any of these things and loved the ideal of a god. I merely accepted a philosophically symbolic god and to some extent I still do. Having a real and existent god just seem like baggage.

I am more interested in how your remove the baggage from having an existent god. By baggage I mean. . .
How do you prove this god exist.
How do you conform this to things like science.
etc

 

[Zoness]

Sorry I am writing from the perspective of how an Atheist feels when witnessing religion behavior. It is not an insult it is just how Atheists feel often times.

I'm well aware of what Atheists feel, I spend a lot of time on reddit. Still, highlighting it in the OP seems like a weird way to approach the conversation: "I think you're stupid but what do you think?".

This is why I dislike religion. Religion has claimed nothing exclusive to it. Dogma, god, ritual and morality all predate religion. Religion is just a way of taking cultural and social elements and meshing them into a package. The issue though is that the package is often times half baked.
This is why I like paganism so much. Paganism is not a package but functions as a buffet. It takes all and presents all but does not require everybody to accept all.
A pagan that does not like Thor is common. A Christian that does not like Jesus though is blasphemous.

I don't think you're wrong, paganism is pretty awesome to be honest and I like that it is not lockstep with certain subjects considering them untouchable and too holy to question. There's a lot slew of things that Christian's consider you blasphemous for brining up as its "established doctrine" and such, plus the long list of rules.

It just isn't for me personally.

The tone of it is confused not negative . You wanna hear negative then you should hear me on my epic rants.

Nah I think I'll pass heh.

 

[JackofSpades]

No idea what you just said. Please rephrase.

Atheists usually claim their atheism being intellectual choice, free of emotional factors. But atheists using very emotional language (like your opening post) give opposite impression about their driving motives. I was trying to point it out.

Having a real and existent god just seem like baggage.

Baggage to whom? For you, or for theists?

 

[EnemyOfReason]

I'm well aware of what Atheists feel, I spend a lot of time on reddit. Still, highlighting it in the OP seems like a weird way to approach the conversation: "I think you're stupid but what do you think?".

I get called stupid by my mother and she wishes me to fail in life. Hatred has never bothered me the slightest considering that it was made clear as a kid that my own mother does not love me.
I am far to concerned about other things than to worry about name calling .

I don't think you're wrong, paganism is pretty awesome to be honest and I like that it is not lockstep with certain subjects considering them untouchable and too holy to question. There's a lot slew of things that Christian's consider you blasphemous for brining up as its "established doctrine" and such, plus the long list of rules.

It just isn't for me personally.

Personally I never liked polytheism. Monotheism is awesome and even when I got involved with Paganism I stuck to one god. Polytheism seems to fancy and I am too utilitarian for that stuff

Nah I think I'll pass heh.

Accept me into your heart for I am your lord and savior.

...I also have no idea where I am going with this shtick

 

[Zoness]

I'm not really a polytheist or a monotheist. I'm probably more of an animist or pantheist which is definitely a different paradigm than I grew up with (monotheism). I agree though, overly vitrolic religious parents are the worst! Mine are pretty moderate Catholics now so its not too bad but there can be some tension at times.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

Atheists usually claim their atheism being intellectual choice, free of emotional factors. But atheists using very emotional language (like your opening post) give opposite impression about their driving motives. I was trying to point it out.

Oh please. Stop nit picking. I can't believe you are still bloating over my words.

Atheists make no such claim that their atheism is an intellectual choice. It is just a choice. I am not even talking about why I am an atheist which means you have not even read a single thing I said in the OP. I am ONLY referring to the opinions I have towards religious behavior. You going off topic and making up claims is not doing you any favors.

Judging from your response to my second set of questions you seem to be avoiding topics as much as possible on top of this

Baggage to whom? For you, or for theists?

Technically both. There is baggage with any claim. Theism just has more baggage than atheism although not by much.
I am referring to the claims that are burdens in arguments by the way.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

I'm not really a polytheist or a monotheist. I'm probably more of an animist or pantheist which is definitely a different paradigm than I grew up with (monotheism). I agree though, overly vitrolic religious parents are the worst! Mine are pretty moderate Catholics now so its not too bad but there can be some tension at times.

I never liked animism or pantheism all that much because it seems to be based on a blunder. You are relabeling something that already has a definite label. If I want a god, then I would go for a distinct being not something as naturalistic as nature.
My parents weren't ultra religious just ultra awful. Religion did not come an issue until decades later when I became an atheist.

 

[JackofSpades]

Oh please. Stop nit picking.

Ok

Judging from your response to my second set of questions you seem to be avoiding topics as much as possible on top of this

I am usually fairly open about being mystic, which in this case means my beliefs are mainly based on my personal experience and up to some degree, experiences of others.

Saying it other way around: this means my beliefs are not based on science, logical proof etc. so I don't really feel arguing under those terms is reasonable for me. It would be just as unreasonable as arguing my beliefs by quoting Quran.

If you feel that's avoiding, I apologize but I really can't help it.

 

[LoAmmi]

I would really avoid using calling things stupid and acting like it's some kind of objective view of it. I would answer your questions with my beliefs, but you've basically said that when I go to synagogue on Saturday, I'm just engaging in really stupid behavior.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

As an atheist I find it shameful that theist demand that a god literally exist. To me this is just shameful considering that the Easter Bunny, Santa and numerous fictional characters do not exist yet they are meaningful to many people.

Why must god be real for it to be meaningful?

To me gods are only meaningful when you do not make them literal things. I love the stories of pagan gods and goddesses and they are meaningful to me without being real. Believe it or not but I have great love for the Qur'an and book of Psalms yet I find the fact that the intent behind them is malicious. What they attempt to express though is really beautiful because they attempt to provide purpose to human life although not well.

I understand why atheist mock theists for the things they do and I myself have a desire to mock them but not for the things they do, but the intent behind them.

Is prayer stupid? Yes it is.
But it is no more stupider then writing a letter to Santa.
What makes writing letters to Santa not stupid in many cases is that people know Santa is not real and just find the concept of writing a letter to Santa meaningful.

Is religious ritual stupid? Yes.
But so is military funeral rituals as they do nothing to bring a soldier back to life, but people do not deem them stupid because it is merely an act of honor not practical behavior.

I find nothing wrong with religious behavior but the intent behind it seem detrimental. Please comment on your feelings

Why does everyone use 'Santa' as a parody for God? You do realize the historical personage from which the 'Santa' legend is drawn, do you not? You do realize what the Latin term for Saint is, do you not?

The truth of 'Santa Claus' and his ontological nature is that if there were not at least a historical Jesus, then there would be no Santa for commercial spinsters to direct at children these last few centuries. Santa was not drawn out of thin air.

Do you find any 'meaning' in this?

Peace
2PhiloVoid

 

[dlamberth]

For myself, God is reality, which the way I understand it means that the Divine expression is much more intense and directly experienced than something that comes across as only "real" to me. I don't experience my Beloved God as sitting on a throne somewhere apart from life and this creation. For me, God is the very essence of life itself. Not apart from it, but whole, united and One with all there is. Everywhere I look, there God is...it's that reality thing I'm pointing towards.

That's my trip. But I don't give two hoots about anyone else's reality. We each have our own journey that works best for them. And this is what works for me.

.

 

[dlamberth]

If I want a god, then I would go for a distinct being not something as naturalistic as nature.

Would you be willing to dwell deeper and go for the creative and creating energy behind and within the very force of nature?

I ask because personally I'm unable to see how God can be separated from life and nature. As an example, God from my vantage point is more Panentheist like.


.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If one is angry because there are people who have different views than them, perhaps the appropriate course of action would be to find a way of dealing with that in a healthy fashion. Perhaps try and understand the source of one's anger--clearly the fact of your upbringing and the negativity you receive from your mother is an ongoing source of conflict here. The only way to really deal with that is to deal with that. Turning one's frustrations and anger toward others isn't particularly healthy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MehGuy]

Since I am not making a knowledge claim regarding God's existence, I do not feel comfortable calling people stupid for praying or engaging in religion in general.

When it comes to things like YEC I usually have less sympathy..