Does God have a common grace?

[Strong in Him]

My understanding is God loves his friends and destroys his enemies.

Jesus said, "if you only love those who love you, what good is that? Be perfect as God is perfect." Matthew 5:46-48

Christ died for sinners, those who are enemies of God, Romans 5:8.

A few things I think are helpful to consider going into this discussion:

-Will all people be saved? Why?

No, because not all will choose God, and to trust and follow him.

-Does God always fulfill his will and council? Why?

God has chosen to allow us to choose - either for him or against him.
That has been accomplished - God did not force Adam, he gave him a command and then left it to him. Joshua, Elijah and the prophets told people to choose whom they were going to serve.

-When Jesus healed people, how did they respond to Christs gift?

Some went away without saying anything - the 9 lepers - others followed him, eg Bartimaeus.

-If there is a common love/grace for Christian and non-christian, why should the Christians act in a set apart Godly way?

Love.
Christians know that they owe everything to God, who has created, saved us, given us his Spirit and every blessing in Christ.

 

[Clare73]

It was answered in post 12 by me.

Post 18 doesn't work. what happens if a person doesn't agree with your definition of grace? Then your formulae and argument fails.​

It's not my definition, it's the use of the word charis in the NT--see charitoo (most favored), Lk 1:28.

If it's "merited favor," then it's not grace, it's wages, what is due to one, as in Ro 4:4-8 on grace.

And it's "unmerited" because no one merits (is owed) anything from God.​

 

[1213]

...Common grace says God loves all and is willing for all to be saved even reprobates, the very people he gave over to the debased mind. Is that true?

I believe He is willing to save anyone, but not everyone wants to be saved and especially, after one is saved from the judgment that comes because of sin, they are not willing to repent as Jesus told. The forgiveness of sins, salvation, is not useful, if person continues in sin, that is why I believe Jesus said:

…"Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
John 8:11

Eternal life is promised for righteous, that is why there must happen a change of heart, if person is not righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And I think that change can happen by words Jesus declared.

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

…as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

And this is how it can be seen:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

That change is required for one to see the Kingdom of the God.

..."Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

 

[All Glory To God]

Jesus said, "if you only love those who love you, what good is that? Be perfect as God is perfect." Matthew 5:46-48

Christ died for sinners, those who are enemies of God, Romans 5:8.

Surely you can't be so blind as to consuse a command given to fallen, delivered by Christ and the will of God for creation? What God does in his eternal council and what he expects from us and what we are bound to are worlds apart.

And when Paul says ''Christ died for sinners, those who are enemies of God'' the ''us'' in that scripture is his Christian audience.

No, because not all will choose God, and to trust and follow him.

So God loves all people, but then turns on them and sends them to hell? The God of the Bible does not change, so this God you speak of is is an impostor.

Malachi 3:6
“For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever

God has chosen to allow us to choose - either for him or against him.
That has been accomplished - God did not force Adam, he gave him a command and then left it to him. Joshua, Elijah and the prophets told people to choose whom they were going to serve.

This is going a little of track, common grace not free will.

Some went away without saying anything - the 9 lepers - others followed him, eg Bartimaeus.

Most of the healed followed, perhaps eventually all went onto be incorporated into Christs growing ministry.

Love.
Christians know that they owe everything to God, who has created, saved us, given us his Spirit and every blessing in Christ.

We owe everything to God because he saved us, not the will of the sinner? Therefore we should go on to be set apart from the lost. Yes, and that eliminates common grace and the well meant offer.

 

[All Glory To God]

It's not my definition, it's the use of the word charis in the NT--see charitoo (most favored), Lk 1:28.

If it's "merited favor," then it's not grace, it's wages, what is due to one, as in Ro 4:4-8 on grace.

And it's "unmerited" because no one merits (is owed) anything from God.​

No one merits anything if you want to take that approach. I just wanted you to make your point that wasn't dependent on me answering a question because I thought the dialogue would be better that way.

I don't think the things of providence like food are grace, because the intent it comes with for the recipient, are not love.

Hope that helps.

 

[All Glory To God]

I believe He is willing to save anyone, but not everyone wants to be saved and especially, after one is saved from the judgment that comes because of sin, they are not willing to repent as Jesus told. The forgiveness of sins, salvation, is not useful, if person continues in sin, that is why I believe Jesus said: . . . .

So God loves all people, but then turns on them and sends them to hell? The God of the Bible does not change, so this God you speak of is is an impostor.

Malachi 3:6
“For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

Heb 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever

 

[Clare73]

No one merits anything if you want to take that approach. I just wanted you to make your point that wasn't dependent on me answering a question because I thought the dialogue would be better that way.

I don't think the things of providence like food are grace, because the intent it comes with for the recipient, are not love.

Hope that helps.

So you see a difference between common grace and special/saving grace?

 

[Hmm]

So God loves all people, but then turns on them and sends them to hell? The God of the Bible does not change, so this God you speak of is is an impostor.

And the way you resolve this is to say that God doesn't love all people, only the elect.

Out of interest, does He hate the non-elect; really really hate them, or is He more easy going than that and likes and dislikes certain aspects of their character depending on the individual reprobate?

 

[All Glory To God]

So you see a difference between common grace and special/saving grace?

I do not see common grace, there is only one type of grace-salvific grace.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

TOPIC QUESTION: Does God love all people and desire that all people be saved, even the reprobates?

Warning, reading this message may cut through the fog of confusion haunting this topic. If you would prefer to remain confused please forget what you’ve just seen

oh my eyes

 

[Clare73]

I do not see common grace, there is only one type of grace-salvific grace.

So you limit it to the spiritual realm.
That's fair. . .it's the unmerited favor of God to his saints.

In the NT grace is always without merit.

 

[All Glory To God]

So you limit it to the spiritual realm.
That's fair. . .it's the unmerited favor of God to his saints.

In the NT grace is always without merit.

And noah, moses etc had the grace of God. Looked what happened to the people of their day that did not.

 

[Strong in Him]

Surely you can't be so blind as to consuse a command given to fallen, delivered by Christ and the will of God for creation? What God does in his eternal council and what he expects from us and what we are bound to are worlds apart.

Are you saying that Jesus was a hypocrite?
Are you saying that when he said to his disciples, Matthew 5:2, "love your enemies .... If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even the pagans do that", he should have said "love your enemies, but my Father loves only those who love him, so don't follow his example"? And when Jesus said "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect", he actually meant "your heavenly Father isn't perfect, but if I say that he is, that will give you something to aim for"?

And when Paul says ''Christ died for sinners, those who are enemies of God'' the ''us'' in that scripture is his Christian audience.

So ALL have sinned and need a Saviour, but the only kind of sinners that Christ died for was those whom he knew would believe and become Christians?
That goes back to his previous saying; don't love only those who love you or will do something for you.

So God loves all people, but then turns on them and sends them to hell?

God doesn't send anyone to hell.
God honours the choices that people make when they are alive.

Jesus came to give us eternal life, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 10:10, 1 John 5:12.
God's free gift is eternal life, Romans 6:23.
God's will is that those who believe in him will have eternal life, John 6:40.
God's work is that those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, John 6:29.
God's desire, work and will is for people to believe in his Son and have eternal life.

But if people hear the Gospel and reject it, say they aren't interested or, in some cases, hate and teach against God, and if they still maintain that until they die, they will find themselves facing God, whom they hated, without forgiveness for their sin and without eternal life. So what other choice is there but for them to spend eternity without the One whom they hate? It would be hell for them, anyway, to be eternally in the presence of other Christians, angels, cherubim and seraphim who are praising him day and night.

Most of the healed followed, perhaps eventually all went onto be incorporated into Christs growing ministry.

Which Scriptures say that then?

We owe everything to God because he saved us, not the will of the sinner? Therefore we should go on to be set apart from the lost.

We love because God first loved us, 1 John 3:19.
We were sinners, Romans 3:23, dead in our sins, Ephesians 1:1-3 and deserved to be eternally cut off from God. But God showed his love, mercy and grace and sent Jesus to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45. We deserved death; he gave us life. We were unable to love him; he showed his love for us, Romans 5:8, 1 John 3:16.

God created everyone in his image, Genesis 1:26-27, gave mankind the breath of life, Genesis 2:7, knows everything about everyone, Psalms 139, and does not desire that anyone should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

 

[All Glory To God]

Are you saying that Jesus was a hypocrite?
Are you saying that when he said to his disciples, Matthew 5:2, "love your enemies .... If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even the pagans do that", he should have said "love your enemies, but my Father loves only those who love him, so don't follow his example"? And when Jesus said "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect", he actually meant "your heavenly Father isn't perfect, but if I say that he is, that will give you something to aim for"?

Well I know God said ''vengeance is mine'' so I see your quoted scripture as the master giving the subjects orders, that he is not bound to as he is the creator, the potter over the clay.

So ALL have sinned and need a Saviour, but the only kind of sinners that Christ died for was those whom he knew would believe and become Christians?
That goes back to his previous saying; don't love only those who love you or will do something for you.

That's not biblical salvation. God does not look into the future and save/elect people based on something he sees in them, like faith. He elects them before the foundation of the world because he foreknew them and loved them.

God doesn't send anyone to hell.
God honours the choices that people make when they are alive.

Jesus came to give us eternal life, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 10:10, 1 John 5:12.
God's free gift is eternal life, Romans 6:23.
God's will is that those who believe in him will have eternal life, John 6:40.
God's work is that those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, John 6:29.
God's desire, work and will is for people to believe in his Son and have eternal life.

But if people hear the Gospel and reject it, say they aren't interested or, in some cases, hate and teach against God, and if they still maintain that until they die, they will find themselves facing God, whom they hated, without forgiveness for their sin and without eternal life. So what other choice is there but for them to spend eternity without the One whom they hate? It would be hell for them, anyway, to be eternally in the presence of other Christians, angels, cherubim and seraphim who are praising him day and night.

This is your model as I understand it. God wants all people to be saved, gives all people the velocity to be saved, but if the correct choice is not made, choosing christ as saviour, God sentences the unbelievers to hell. He does send them to hell correct? God started off loving all, now he's moved to the position where he will not allow them into his kingdom. That is not love, he has changed, so those scriptures have been broken.

Also it's worth noting he can't be in a state of perfection. If something has absolute infallible knowledge, holiness, justice and then shifts from that place that would be degrading. And then God is no longer immutable either.

Which Scriptures say that then?

It is my summary of the healing in the bible, like the two blind men calling Jesus son of David, blind man healed with clay etc. And I said they could have all gone on with him.

We love because God first loved us, 1 John 3:19.
We were sinners, Romans 3:23, dead in our sins, Ephesians 1:1-3 and deserved to be eternally cut off from God. But God showed his love, mercy and grace and sent Jesus to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45. We deserved death; he gave us life. We were unable to love him; he showed his love for us, Romans 5:8, 1 John 3:16.

God created everyone in his image, Genesis 1:26-27, gave mankind the breath of life, Genesis 2:7, knows everything about everyone, Psalms 139, and does not desire that anyone should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

I don't think Jesus died and suffered for reprobates. He died for his sheep, his friends. He did not pray for the world but his friends.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Did you miss post #18?

Yes, and you need to understand that Christ is the gift of grace and the gift of Christ, through whom we have salvation, is unmerited.

Your problem is that your definition goes only to the word "charis" and its definition and not to the implied meaning of the Apostle Paul who wrote about it. Paul said himself that he preached Christ and would know nothing but Christ and him crucified.

It is true that there is nothing that we can actually merit from God, however you need to understand the fatherhood of God as creator. I say, as creator, for by it he is the Father of all however, in Christ, he is the Father of those who believe.

Would you say that you merit anything from your dad? Yet you would soon say it is his duty to provide because he is dad, and its what dads are expected to do. It is as the father creator that he pours his rain on the just and unjust and not as the Father redeemer. These are two distinct relationships we can have with God but only the second will lead to everlasting life.

Christ is charis and charis is Christ. All from Adam have been saved this way.

 

[Strong in Him]

Well I know God said ''vengeance is mine'' so I see your quoted scripture as the master giving the subjects orders, that he is not bound to as he is the creator, the potter over the clay.

I see you haven't quoted the Scripture so that we can look at the context.
No matter. God says elsewhere that WE should not take revenge on our enemies but leave it to him to judge.

God does not contradict himself.

That's not biblical salvation. God does not look into the future

He doesn't need to "look into the future"; he is outside time.
He knows how many people are going to accept him.

and save/elect people based on something he sees in them, like faith. He elects them before the foundation of the world because he foreknew them and loved them.

That suggests to me that God said "I am going to create these people in my image, but I have already decided that they will never know me; I am creating them for hell."
That's not love, and that's not what God does.
He created all people in his image and wants all to know him - but he chose to allow us to choose, and he knows that some will refuse to accept him.

This is your model as I understand it. God wants all people to be saved, gives all people the velocity to be saved, but if the correct choice is not made, choosing christ as saviour, God sentences the unbelievers to hell.

If people hear the Gospel, if they are told, and shown, that God loves them very much and Christ died so that they could be forgiven and have a new start and they say "no thanks", and if they continue to say "no thanks" for the whole of their lives no matter ow many times the Gospel is proclaimed to them, then they will die in their sins, unforgiven, without eternal life and therefore spend eternity without him.

He does send them to hell correct?

See above, and previous answer.
He doesn't SEND them to hell - they spend eternity dead in their sins, knowing that everything that had heard about God IS true and that now it's too late for forgiveness. That is hell - knowing for a fact that God exists and could have shown you love, acceptance and forgiveness but you slammed the door in his face.

God started off loving all, now he's moved to the position where he will not allow them into his kingdom. That is not love, he has changed, so those scriptures have been broken.

So you've contradicted the Scriptures that you posted which show that God does not change?

What evidence do you have for your belief that God once loved everyone but then changes his mind about whom he would save?
If that were true then people would go to hell only because of the whim of God. Nothing to do with their sin; God did love them but then changed his mind.

Also it's worth noting he can't be in a state of perfection.

So you don't believe, either, what Jesus said in Matthew 5:48? Was he lying, or did he make a mistake?

We know that God's words are perfect, Psalm 17:7, his way is perfect, Psalm 18:30, his knowledge is perfect, Job 36:4, his faithfulness is perfect, Isaiah 25:1 and his will is perfect, Romans 12:2 - but for some reason, God himself isn't?

It is my summary of the healing in the bible, like the two blind men calling Jesus son of David, blind man healed with clay etc. And I said they could have all gone on with him.

You said "most of the healed followed; perhaps all were eventually incorporated into Christ's growing ministry."

I don't think Jesus died and suffered for reprobates. He died for his sheep, his friends. He did not pray for the world but his friends.

So you don't believe Romans 5:8, and you also believe that God does what Jesus told us not to do - love only those who love you?

If God has already decided that some people will go to hell, he created them to go to hell and they can never be forgiven anyway because Jesus didn't die for them; what's the point of preaching the Gospel?
Jesus told his disciples to teach everything he had taught them - and he told people to repent, stop sinning and trust God. What's the point of that if God has already decided that someone is going to hell? In fact, if God has changed his mind once, what's to stop him from doing it again?
You seem to be proclaiming an indecisive God who expects us to behave in a certain way, when he is unable to do that himself.

 

[All Glory To God]

I see you haven't quoted the Scripture so that we can look at the context.
No matter. God says elsewhere that WE should not take revenge on our enemies but leave it to him to judge.

God does not contradict himself.



He doesn't need to "look into the future"; he is outside time.
He knows how many people are going to accept him.



That suggests to me that God said "I am going to create these people in my image, but I have already decided that they will never know me; I am creating them for hell."
That's not love, and that's not what God does.
He created all people in his image and wants all to know him - but he chose to allow us to choose, and he knows that some will refuse to accept him.



If people hear the Gospel, if they are told, and shown, that God loves them very much and Christ died so that they could be forgiven and have a new start and they say "no thanks", and if they continue to say "no thanks" for the whole of their lives no matter ow many times the Gospel is proclaimed to them, then they will die in their sins, unforgiven, without eternal life and therefore spend eternity without him.



See above, and previous answer.
He doesn't SEND them to hell - they spend eternity dead in their sins, knowing that everything that had heard about God IS true and that now it's too late for forgiveness. That is hell - knowing for a fact that God exists and could have shown you love, acceptance and forgiveness but you slammed the door in his face.



So you've contradicted the Scriptures that you posted which show that God does not change?

What evidence do you have for your belief that God once loved everyone but then changes his mind about whom he would save?
If that were true then people would go to hell only because of the whim of God. Nothing to do with their sin; God did love them but then changed his mind.



So you don't believe, either, what Jesus said in Matthew 5:48? Was he lying, or did he make a mistake?

We know that God's words are perfect, Psalm 17:7, his way is perfect, Psalm 18:30, his knowledge is perfect, Job 36:4, his faithfulness is perfect, Isaiah 25:1 and his will is perfect, Romans 12:2 - but for some reason, God himself isn't?



You said "most of the healed followed; perhaps all were eventually incorporated into Christ's growing ministry."



So you don't believe Romans 5:8, and you also believe that God does what Jesus told us not to do - love only those who love you?

If God has already decided that some people will go to hell, he created them to go to hell and they can never be forgiven anyway because Jesus didn't die for them; what's the point of preaching the Gospel?
Jesus told his disciples to teach everything he had taught them - and he told people to repent, stop sinning and trust God. What's the point of that if God has already decided that someone is going to hell? In fact, if God has changed his mind once, what's to stop him from doing it again?
You seem to be proclaiming an indecisive God who expects us to behave in a certain way, when he is unable to do that himself.

This God you are describing doesn't seem to be in control of anything. All actions done by this God seem to be passive or responsive.

This example of judement ''He doesn't SEND them to hell - they spend eternity dead in their sins'' but I understand some people like a impotent deity like that.

So now we have a doctrinal difference on eternal punishment, let me ask you your opinion on the Trinity to see how far out our image of God is.

Would you consider someone a Christian or trust their doctrines as Christian if they deharmonized or blasphemed the Trinity?

 

[Strong in Him]

This God you are describing doesn't seem to be in control of anything.

Of course he is.

All actions done by this God seem to be passive or responsive.

Not at all.
He chose to create the universe, chose to create human beings and chose to give us the ability to choose. Having allowed us to make decisions, he does not intervene and force certain courses of action upon us. What would be the point? He might as well have created us so that it was impossible for us to disobey him in the first place - robots.

So now we have a doctrinal difference on eternal punishment,

No - I'm not denying here IS eternal punishment; only that God doesn't say "you are preselected for it."
I'm disputing that Christ died for only a few.

Would you consider someone a Christian or trust their doctrines as Christian if they deharmonized or blasphemed the Trinity?

Of course not.
Groups like the JWs that deny the Trinity are cults.
People who deny the Trinity who was to post on CF can do so only in certain sections of the forum, and would not be able to call themselves Christians since the Nicene creed teaches the Trinity.

 

[All Glory To God]

Of course he is.



Not at all.
He chose to create the universe, chose to create human beings and chose to give us the ability to choose. Having allowed us to make decisions, he does not intervene and force certain courses of action upon us. What would be the point? He might as well have created us so that it was impossible for us to disobey him in the first place - robots.



No - I'm not denying here IS eternal punishment; only that God doesn't say "you are preselected for it."
I'm disputing that Christ died for only a few.



Of course not.
Groups like the JWs that deny the Trinity are cults.
People who deny the Trinity who was to post on CF can do so only in certain sections of the forum, and would not be able to call themselves Christians since the Nicene creed teaches the Trinity.

I agree in regard to the Trinity. To be honest I rarely use the word heretic but when people knowingly attempt to change the fundamentals of the Gospel, possible like the groups you mentioned it is appropriate. Not sure what you think of that.

So following on from the final judgement question, does the father justify some people saving them from this punishment or will he justify only some people and condemn the rest? Basically how many will be justified by the father, all of human creation or part of human creation?

 

[Strong in Him]

So following on from the final judgement question, does the father justify some people saving them from this punishment or will he justify only some people and condemn the rest? Basically how many will be justified by the father, all of human creation or part of human creation?

Anyone who believes in Jesus and accepts his atoning death for their sins on the cross has been reconciled to God and has eternal life, Romans 5:1, Romans 3:4, 1 Corinthians 6:11, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:7; Romans 5:11, 2 Corinthians 5:18; John 3:16, John 3:36, 1 John 5:12.

If someone dies without Christ - still in their sins and without eternal life, then I believe God will judge accordingly. Someone who has never heard the Gospel, for example, will be in a different position than someone who has. But a person may not have fully known and believed in God's love - if they had a lousy life, for example, and never knew what love was.

What happens then is up to God, not me. All I know is that we have been told to preach the Gospel of repentance to ALL, and when the Gospel has been preached throughout the world, the end will come, Matthew 24:14.

Why would God punish people for rejecting him if he had decided beforehand that Christ didn't die for them and they were preselected for hell?