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Does God hate the reprobate?

Jon_

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cygnusx1 said:
Consider Noah , a preacher of Righteousness , for over a Hundred years he preached Repentance and saw not one conversion , was God sincere in telling them to repent?
Was the commandment sincere? Yes. Was the offer genuine? No.

cygnusx1 said:
Did it grieve God's heart when they refused , even though God witheld from them the gift of Repentance?
No. "Grieve" is an anthropomorphism. God doesn't grieve. God doesn't have emotions or passions. The use of the term here in instructional.

cygnusx1 said:
Next consider the case of Jonah , a man who knew all about God's Covenant Love , yet God spends Months showing Jonah that even those outside of the Covenant are immensely important to Him.
cygnusx1 said:
Did Jonah learn that God's Love , Grace and concerns don't remain solely for the Elect?
Indeed he did! Although, this doesn't necessarily speak of a genuine offer to those God has decreed to not save. (God did intent to save the Ninevites, and so they were saved.)

cygnusx1 said:
Now consider three cases of heartbreak.
cygnusx1 said:
1. God the Father heart broken over stubborn Israel (Hosea 11:8)
2.God The Son heart Broken over lost Jerusalem (Luke 19:41)
3.Paul the Apostle heart broken over Reprobate Jews (Romans 9)

are these cases (there are more) not indicative of real Love ?
Indicative of real love? Yes. But again, they are metaphorical--God's heart does not break. Much less over that which he has ordained. Moreover, that God loves all (in some sense) does not necessarily mean he extends a genuine offer of salvation to all. He is not obligated, not by outside forces, not by his own nature, to save anyone.

cygnusx1 said:
Do we not see from God a real desire (DELIGHT) that men repent and are spared death?
From the examples given? No, not even close I'm afraid.

cygnusx1 said:
Maybe a better way of wording this would be to say God has THREE aspects to His will:
cygnusx1 said:
God decreed only the Elect will be saved .
God's Will of desire is that the reprobate fall
God's inward desires (emotions corresponding with relationships) are to Bless not to kill. (God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked ........ He may have pleasure in executing Justice , but Mercy is far more desirable to God than Judgment , hence , God is Longsuffering over the vessels of wrath......)
If mercy is more desirable to God than justice, then why doesn't he save everyone? That simply makes no sense when so many passages that talk about God fulfilling all he pleases (esp. Ps. 115:3; 135:6) say the exact opposite. To call it a "mystery" is a simply a cop out. I have offered a simple, sound explanation of the dynamics. To reject this out of hand and simply argue from ignorance (argue from a non-provable position) is an highly fallacious argument.

Maybe I am wrong. I will be the first to admit it. Perhaps there is some logical explanation for it that I am missing. It could be that it is yet hidden from me. If that be true, I pray the Lord rebuke and chastise me for my lack of understanding. Yet, until such time should come, I see no reason whatsoever to maintain otherwise.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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cygnusx1

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Jon_ said:
Was the commandment sincere? Yes. Was the offer genuine? No.
yet all God's ways are genuine ........ either there is an offer or there isn't ........ all Calvinistic creeds bar TWO accept God does ''offer'' life to the reprobate !
Regarding what is the Gospel You yourself have said ,

"That they are sinners. And that Jesus Christ has died to save that which was lost. And if they will acknowledge their sins, hear his voice, and believe on him as Lord and Savior, they shall be saved."

Your last line which I have made bold is an OFFER , it is a promise of life IF .......




No. "Grieve" is an anthropomorphism. God doesn't grieve. God doesn't have emotions or passions. The use of the term here in instructional.
I don't agree , we are commanded not to Grieve the Holy Spirit , but let's give you the benefit of the doubt here .......... if it is an anthromorphism what exactly does it mean ?


Indeed he did! Although, this doesn't necessarily speak of a genuine offer to those God has decreed to not save. (God did intent to save the Ninevites, and so they were saved.)

so the preaching of repentance is not for all men , but only for those who are elect!
This is the exact road the Gospel standard Baptist went down hundreds of years ago , they denied Duty faith !
So if there is no offer of salvation for the reprobate , then why are they judged more severely than those who never heared?
Why is Sodom in less trouble than those reprobate Jews who rejected Christ?


Indicative of real love? Yes. But again, they are metaphorical--God's heart does not break. Much less over that which he has ordained. Moreover, that God loves all (in some sense) does not necessarily mean he extends a genuine offer of salvation to all. He is not obligated, not by outside forces, not by his own nature, to save anyone.
He is not obligated to Love anyone but He does anyway , and denying God is heart broken with sinners is a denial of many texts ........... take Jesus , the FULL expression of God , the Lord wept over lost sinners , is that not proof that God is grieved over sinners , or do you suppose that while Jesus wept God was laughing , or just plain indifferent!
Take Paul , he wept over sinners , are we to do something that God gives us no Divine example for ? Do we show more concern and love for reprobates than God ?
You think God doesn't have feelings ........... what are we worshiping , a impersonal power , a God without feeling cannot love or hate , and He can never get angry!




If mercy is more desirable to God than justice, then why doesn't he save everyone? That simply makes no sense when so many passages that talk about God fulfilling all he pleases (esp. Ps. 115:3; 135:6) say the exact opposite. To call it a "mystery" is a simply a cop out. I have offered a simple, sound explanation of the dynamics. To reject this out of hand and simply argue from ignorance (argue from a non-provable position) is an highly fallacious argument.
Jon , I am not getting at you in any way , the next part is for all Christians , myself more so!
I am talking about God's 'desire' as that which He Delights in ......... a Divine approval . You have a relationship with a heavenly Father who not only has requirements but desires ......... God desires you to be Holy , Perfect , Full of The Spirit ........ God approves of all these things , yet it is not always fullfilled . why ? Before you assume God's Secret Decree is the answer (it may well be) first ask yourself "am I doing all I can to ensure I please God"
Desires are very much a part of a relationship , you cannot have a relationship with a list of requirements and a decree that is hidden :D

Maybe I am wrong. I will be the first to admit it. Perhaps there is some logical explanation for it that I am missing. It could be that it is yet hidden from me. If that be true, I pray the Lord rebuke and chastise me for my lack of understanding. Yet, until such time should come, I see no reason whatsoever to maintain otherwise.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
well said!
 
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Jon_

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cygnusx1 said:
yet all God's ways are genuine ........ either there is an offer or there isn't ........ all Calvinistic creeds bar TWO accept God does ''offer'' life to the reprobate !
Regarding what is the Gospel You yourself have said ,

"That they are sinners. And that Jesus Christ has died to save that which was lost. And if they will acknowledge their sins, hear his voice, and believe on him as Lord and Savior, they shall be saved."

Your last line which I have made bold is an OFFER , it is a promise of life IF .......
Right. And because the reprobate will never believe, the offer is null and void to them.

Let me put it this way, can you choose to do something that you cannot do?

For instance, can you choose to sprout wings?

Is it rational for God to offer you a choice to sprout wings?

cygnusx1 said:
I don't agree , we are commanded not to Grieve the Holy Spirit , but let's give you the benefit of the doubt here .......... if it is an anthromorphism what exactly does it mean ?
ANTHROPOMORPH'OUS, a. Belonging to that which has the form of man; having the figure of resemblance to a man. (Webster's Dictionary of American English, 1828 Edition)
An anthropomorphism is a commonly used term today to mean that God expresses himself in humanly metaphorical terms: God was angry, sad, etc.

On the other hand, Anthropomorphism is also an ancient heresy.
ANTHROPOMORPH'ITE, n. [Gr. man, and form.]

One who believes a human form in the Supreme Being. A sect of ancient heretics are called anthropomorphites.
This is the same heresy to which Mormons belong (although they are heretical in many other ways as well).

Because God does not have an human form, he does not have human passions. God is passionless. His divine nature is necessarily without passion. Let's define a passion (an emotion).
EMO'TION, n. [L. emotio; emoveo, to move from.]

1. Literally, a moving of the mind or soul; hence,any agitation of mind or excitement of sensibility.

2. In a philosophical sense, an internal motion or agitation of the mind which passes away without desire; when desire follows, the motion or agitation is called a passion.

3. Passion is the sensible effect, the feeling to which the mind is subjected,when an object of importance suddenly and imperiously demands its attention. The state of absolute passiveness, in consequence of any sudden percussion of mind, is of short duration. The strong impression, or vivid sensation, immediately produces a reaction correspondent to its nature, either to appropriate and enjoy, or avoid and repel the exciting cause. This reaction is very properly distinguished by the term emotion.

Emotions therefore, according to the genuine signification of the word, are principally and primarily applicable to the sensible changes and visible effects, which particular passions produce on the frame, in consequence of this reaction, or particular agitation of mind.
We notice here that the main crux of an emotion is a changing in the mental state of the being having the emotion. Therefore, in order for God to have an emotion, he would have to experience a change in mental state. But that is impossible because God is immutable (unchanging).

The Bible uses anthropomorphisms because that is the only way that we can understand. We do not understand God's nature, so we cannot understand the implications that our disobedience has on him. Instead, he must express himself in ways that we can understand: that he is "grieved" when we resist his Holy Spirit, that he was "angry" with Israel for not keeping the covenant. God does not actually experience any of these emotions, however. Not only is it logically necessary that he is without passion, but it does not make sense that he would be. It doesn't make sense that God would become angry with Israel for breaking their covenant if he foreordained that they should.

cygnusx1 said:
so the preaching of repentance is not for all men , but only for those who are elect!
cygnusx1 said:
This is the exact road the Gospel standard Baptist went down hundreds of years ago , they denied Duty faith !

The offer of the Gospel is not for all men is my position. We are required to preach the Gospel to all men, but not because this accomplishes anything of itself, but because God commands it. Moreover, God chooses to work regneration in the hearts of men through the delivery of the Gospel (Rom. 10:17). The Gospel Standard Baptists denied this, which is where they erred.

What is not error is the contention that God ever extends an offer to the reprobate to be saved.

cygnusx1 said:
So if there is no offer of salvation for the reprobate , then why are they judged more severely than those who never heared?
cygnusx1 said:
Why is Sodom in less trouble than those reprobate Jews who rejected Christ?
Because God is the basis of justice and he has ordained that those who have heard and denied the Gospel shall suffer greater than those who have not. There can be no other explanation. It depends not on us, but upon God.

cygnusx1 said:
He is not obligated to Love anyone but He does anyway , and denying God is heart broken with sinners is a denial of many texts ...........

To say that God is heart broken is to deny his divinity. I do not deny any texts that speak of God being heart-broken. I only deny that you are correctly interpreting the meaning behind them.

cygnusx1 said:
take Jesus , the FULL expression of God , the Lord wept over lost sinners ,

Jesus wept in his human nature. Do not forget that Jesus is fully human and fully divine. In his human nature he had emotions, but these did not and do not in any way affect his divine nature, which is fully God and without passion.

cygnusx1 said:
is that not proof that God is grieved over sinners , or do you suppose that while Jesus wept God was laughing , or just plain indifferent!

I'm a little saddened to see you make this argument, cyg. It shows a lack of understanding of Christ's human nature over against his divine nature.

cygnusx1 said:
Take Paul , he wept over sinners , are we to do something that God gives us no Divine example for ? Do we show more concern and love for reprobates than God ?

How in the world could we show more love for anything than God? God is love. This conclusion does not follow and is based on false premises. Paul wept because he had an human nature, just as we weep because we have an human nature. Yet Jesus said, "Be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." As God is perfect, it follows that all of his attributes are perfect. Since impassion is one of those attributes, we should strive to also be without passion. (This is not necessarily to say that passion is sinful, only that it is undesirable because it causes emotions, which are changes in our mental state. Not all of these changes are bad, but many of them are.)

Yes, I realize the Stoics taught something very similar, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. It only means that they misapplied the truth.

cygnusx1 said:
You think God doesn't have feelings ........... what are we worshiping , a impersonal power , a God without feeling cannot love or hate , and He can never get angry!
I have already shown that God does not have feelings; but I must address this: that God cannot love or hate if he has no feelings. Love and hate are not feelings. They are volitions. They are supernatural inclinations toward one disposition or another. Love and hate occur at a spiritual level, not a physical one. For example, animals can be happy and sad, but they cannot love or hate.

Love and hate often times rouse physical emotions, though: compassion, infatuation, anger, rage, etc. God loves and hates, but he does not experience any of the human emotions that often come with these volitions. In this way, God is able to hate righteously. (This might expressed as righteous anger, or just wrath, or by a number of other anthropomorphic expressions.)

cygnusx1 said:
Jon , I am not getting at you in any way , the next part is for all Christians , myself more so!
cygnusx1 said:
I am talking about God's 'desire' as that which He Delights in ......... a Divine approval . You have a relationship with a heavenly Father who not only has requirements but desires ......... God desires you to be Holy , Perfect , Full of The Spirit ........ God approves of all these things , yet it is not always fullfilled . why ? Before you assume God's Secret Decree is the answer (it may well be) first ask yourself "am I doing all I can to ensure I please God"
Desires are very much a part of a relationship ,

For sake of argument, I'll assume this, so that I can argue your next point.

cygnusx1 said:
you cannot have a relationship with a list of requirements and a decree that is hidden :D
Why not?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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cygnusx1

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this was posted by someone yesterday .............. it is apt ...

Quote:
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Originally Posted by: depthdeception
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God doesn't hate anybody. When we read passages in the bible about God's "love" and God's "hate," we must remember that these are written from the perspective of limited, finite human beings. These descriptions that are attributed to God are anthropomorphisms--they do not accuratelly reflect the whole truth of the reality.

Now we do know that God has demonstrated divine love in becoming Incarnate in the person of Jesus. God has manifested love in the history of salvation through the coming of Christ.

Yet has God demonstrated divine hatred? No. Even those that claim that God hates still recognize the fact that the "hated of God" will persist into eternity in damnation. Yet if God were truly hateful, it would stand to reason that God would put the existence of the hated to an end, for an eternity in hell is categorically more desirable than non-existence. Furthermore, by allowing these damned to continue into eternity, God actually demonstrates God's love, for God's love allowed these persons to willfully reject God's revelation of love in Christ.

Therefore, what are we to make of the references to God "hating" in the bible? I would suggest that they are descriptions of God's allowance of those who hate God to inherit the consequences of their decisions.

putting aside the obvious contradiction in the above quote , notice that Love as well as hate are said to be anthropomorphisms!
Now it is one thing to recognise poetic language eg, God will put His arms around you , healing in His wings etc , these are obviously anthropomorphisms , but to then go on and tick things off for the 'anthropomorphic treatment' is staggering and highly questionable!




I will answer your post in detail later Jon , D.V. :wave:
 
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cygnusx1

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Maybe I will stick with talking about the Gospel Offer , the sincerity of The Gospel Offer , and God's Love for Reprobates .......... The Doctrine of the Impassibility of God (or otherwise) is such a massive subject I think it needs another thread , make that 10 threads :D




I will answer your post in detail later Jon , D.V. :wave:
 
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Jon_

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I'm going to assume his use of the term "anthropomorphism" for the sake of argument. His use of it is actually very, very wrong because his implies that an anthropomorphism is not meant to be understood in an human sense. A real anthropomorphism is meant to be understood in an human sense. But I will be assuming his use of the term, so that I can show how absolutely terrible his post was.

deathdeception said:
God doesn't hate anybody. When we read passages in the bible about God's "love" and God's "hate," we must remember that these are written from the perspective of limited, finite human beings. These descriptions that are attributed to God are anthropomorphisms--they do not accuratelly reflect the whole truth of the reality.
If he is rejecting that God literally hates because it is an anthropomorphism, then love must also be an anthropomorphism, in which case, we could also say that God doesn't love anyone.

deathdeception said:
Now we do know that God has demonstrated divine love in becoming Incarnate in the person of Jesus. God has manifested love in the history of salvation through the coming of Christ.
I agree with this; however, according to his assertion of volitional inclinations as mere anthropomorphisms, he cannot affirm this. Since God's sense of love is not the same as ours, it is impossible for us to know what his sense truly is. Therefore, it is impossible for us to know if him sending his Son to die for us was actually an act of love, or hate, or something else. Simply because the Bible says it was an act of love isn't enough because we have undermined our understanding of the Bible by saying that "love" and "hate" are just anthropomorphic, and are not completely understandable by humans. Because of this, we have no rational basis for what we consider love or hate.

deathdeception said:
Yet has God demonstrated divine hatred? No.
Absolutely! This is ridiculous! I've got three words for you: Sodom and Gamorrha.

deathdeception said:
Even those that claim that God hates still recognize the fact that the "hated of God" will persist into eternity in damnation.
Correct.

deathdeception said:
Yet if God were truly hateful, it would stand to reason that God would put the existence of the hated to an end, for an eternity in hell is categorically more desirable than non-existence.
No, it doesn't stand to reason. This is non sequitur fallacy. There is nothing logically necessary that says God must immediately destory the objects of his hatred. In fact, God is pleased to show longsuffering toward those vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (Rom. 9:22).

deathdeception said:
Furthermore, by allowing these damned to continue into eternity, God actually demonstrates God's love, for God's love allowed these persons to willfully reject God's revelation of love in Christ.
First of all, this is another fallacy. The conclusion is irrelevant to the premises. Nevertheless, I will still answer this point in the affirmative.

I don't deny that God continuously shows love toward the reprobate in some sense. It is only by God's love that these individuals exist at all. But this love is different in sense from his hatred. God loves his creation as his means of glorifying himself. But God hates sinners individually for their corruption.

deathdeception said:
Therefore, what are we to make of the references to God "hating" in the bible? I would suggest that they are descriptions of God's allowance of those who hate God to inherit the consequences of their decisions.
According to him, we can't make reference to God hating anything in the Bible because we can't truly understand what hate and love are.

Does he truly believe that these baseless assertions and fallacious arguments have made a point, though? This was among the worst arguments I have ever seen. It immediately begins with false premises and then promptly begins undermining our Christian understanding of God's love and hate.

cygnusx1 said:
putting aside the obvious contradiction in the above quote ,
Which ones? I lost count.

cygnusx1 said:
notice that Love as well as hate are said to be anthropomorphisms!
As pointed out above, his use of anthropomorphism is dead wrong. Anthropomorphisms only apply to temporal human expressions. For instance, God is described as having human body parts, acting by temporal means (riding on the wind), or showing human emotions. These are anthropomorphisms. Love and hate are not emotions, they are volitions. They are spiritual. We love God in the same sense that he loves us. Do we love God as purely as he does us? Probably not. But it is nevertheless a spiritual volition on both of our parts.

cygnusx1 said:
Now it is one thing to recognise poetic language eg, God will put His arms around you , healing in His wings etc , these are obviously anthropomorphisms , but to then go on and tick things off for the 'anthropomorphic treatment' is staggering and highly questionable!
I'm not sure if this last part is aimed at me or deathdeception. If it's aimed at me, then you have quite clearly misunderstood either anthropomorphisms, or my application of the term. If you are speaking of deathdeception, then you are absolutely correct.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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cygnusx1

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Jon_ said:
I'm going to assume his use of the term "anthropomorphism" for the sake of argument. His use of it is actually very, very wrong because his implies that an anthropomorphism is not meant to be understood in an human sense. A real anthropomorphism is meant to be understood in an human sense. But I will be assuming his use of the term, so that I can show how absolutely terrible his post was.


If he is rejecting that God literally hates because it is an anthropomorphism, then love must also be an anthropomorphism, in which case, we could also say that God doesn't love anyone.


I agree with this; however, according to his assertion of volitional inclinations as mere anthropomorphisms, he cannot affirm this. Since God's sense of love is not the same as ours, it is impossible for us to know what his sense truly is. Therefore, it is impossible for us to know if him sending his Son to die for us was actually an act of love, or hate, or something else. Simply because the Bible says it was an act of love isn't enough because we have undermined our understanding of the Bible by saying that "love" and "hate" are just anthropomorphic, and are not completely understandable by humans. Because of this, we have no rational basis for what we consider love or hate.


Absolutely! This is ridiculous! I've got three words for you: Sodom and Gamorrha.


Correct.


No, it doesn't stand to reason. This is non sequitur fallacy. There is nothing logically necessary that says God must immediately destory the objects of his hatred. In fact, God is pleased to show longsuffering toward those vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (Rom. 9:22).


First of all, this is another fallacy. The conclusion is irrelevant to the premises. Nevertheless, I will still answer this point in the affirmative.

I don't deny that God continuously shows love toward the reprobate in some sense. It is only by God's love that these individuals exist at all. But this love is different in sense from his hatred. God loves his creation as his means of glorifying himself. But God hates sinners individually for their corruption.


According to him, we can't make reference to God hating anything in the Bible because we can't truly understand what hate and love are.

Does he truly believe that these baseless assertions and fallacious arguments have made a point, though? This was among the worst arguments I have ever seen. It immediately begins with false premises and then promptly begins undermining our Christian understanding of God's love and hate.


Which ones? I lost count.


As pointed out above, his use of anthropomorphism is dead wrong. Anthropomorphisms only apply to temporal human expressions. For instance, God is described as having human body parts, acting by temporal means (riding on the wind), or showing human emotions. These are anthropomorphisms. Love and hate are not emotions, they are volitions. They are spiritual. We love God in the same sense that he loves us. Do we love God as purely as he does us? Probably not. But it is nevertheless a spiritual volition on both of our parts.


I'm not sure if this last part is aimed at me or deathdeception. If it's aimed at me, then you have quite clearly misunderstood either anthropomorphisms, or my application of the term. If you are speaking of deathdeception, then you are absolutely correct.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Good post Jon , I think depthdeception is so full of hatred for Calvinists that he fails to realise he is working with his own paradigm (Arminianism) which he cannot but rant and rave at anyone else who puts more than one scripture together to work with .
I think his final line :

''Therefore, what are we to make of the references to God "hating" in the bible? I would suggest that they are descriptions of God's allowance of those who hate God to inherit the consequences of their decisions.''

shows his main premise , that God doesn't hate anyone , and when scripture says He does , it really means men hate God!!! :doh:

btw , I am still not convinced God has no feelings , I cannot conceive of Love or hate without emotion , also there are many texts that says God delights , also getting back to my original point , Does God mock you when He COMMANDS you to be perfect ?
Notice I used the word commands , not merely require ....... now , is God making mock ? I think not!
And neither is God mocking the reprobate when He commands him to repent and when He offers him eternal life if he will trust Jesus.

The bottom line is , you cannot judge the sincerity of an offer by the ability or otherwise of the 'recipient' .
 
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Elect

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Billy Talks to his Pastor about God

Billy: "Pastor, does God love everybody?"

Pastor: "Yes, Billy (smile, pats him on the head).

Billy: "How come it says in Romans 9 that he hated Esau?"

Pastor: "Been reading your Bible, huh, Billy? (still smiles). Well, the Bible also says that God hates, but that only is talking about God's secret decree, and as far as we are concerned, he loves everybody."

Billy: "Pastor?".

Pastor: "Yes, Billy."

Billy: "If God tells us about his secret decree, is it still a secret?"

Pastor: "Er, well, I guess…not, Billy, but I meant that we should realize that there is a way the Bible talks about God's love for everybody, and that's what we should think about, not the one or two places where it says God hates."

Billy: "Oh. How is it that God loves everybody?"

Pastor: "Well, he gives everybody rain and sunshine, and he blesses the people of the earth with a conscience so they know right from wrong, and he has given them many gifts which they use to make the world a better and safer place to live."

Billy: "Then he sends most of them to hell?"

Pastor: "Yes, Billy."

Billy: "Pastor?"

Pastor: "Yes, Billy."

Billy: "Is it love for God to give people good things for a few years to make them feel comfortable and worthwhile, and then send them to hell?"

Pastor: "Well, I… yes, it…is, I think, because it would have been worse if, I mean it would be, um, well, it is, I guess, because he did not send them directly to hell, but he allowed them to experience his goodness and his provision for his creatures…"

Billy: "Is it love to let someone experience something good they will remember forever and always hate God for, because that good thing they loved more than forgiveness?"

Pastor: "Could we change the subject, Billy? I am not sure my answers are satisfying you."

Billy: "O.K., Pastor. Did Jesus die for everybody?"

Pastor: "Why, sure, Billy."

Billy: "Pastor"

Pastor: "Yes, Billy."

Billy: "If Jesus died for everybody, why isn't everybody going to heaven?"

Pastor: "Well Billy, its because not everybody will accept him."

Billy: "But Pastor, I thought Jesus saved us. You are telling me that we save Jesus."

Pastor: (Laughing nervously) Of course not, Billy! I believe that Jesus saves us completely! However would you get the idea that I believed we save Jesus?

Billy: "Well, Pastor, you told me that Jesus died for everybody, and that only those who accept him will be saved. So, this means Jesus' death and resurrection, what Jesus does, cannot save us of itself, but something more is needed, and that something more is what we do by accepting him. For those who do not accept Jesus, they will perish. That means that Jesus' dying for them cannot help them. In fact, it means that Jesus' work for them was a miserable failure. On the other hand, those who accept him make his work real by their acceptance—and they save his work from being a failure. Without us, Jesus, and his work of salvation—would be doomed! If Jesus cannot save us without the permission we give of our own free will, then we are the real saviors, and Jesus is the one we save! Wow! What would he ever do without us?!

Pastor: "Er… uh…that's not what I mean. I mean if, it is, I said…no, I believe Jesus is the one who does the saving, Billy, its just that… God has made it so that we… are free to acc… meaning, we are, are…Billy, the Bible is mysterious. It seems to mean certain things, but it doesn't really, like it says…you are using logic, Billy. The Bible is not logical, and the truths are not something we can fit into our own minds."

Billy: "Pastor."

Pastor: "Yes, Billy (now showing a slight frown).

Billy: "When you say the Bible is not logical, does that mean the Bible does not make sense? 'Cause you made sense when you said the Bible wasn't logical. I think it was because you used logic that you made sense."

Pastor: (Now glowering at Billy) No, Billy, I didn't mean the Bible does not make sense. It does make sense, but just not our kind of sense".

Billy: "Pastor."

Pastor: "Yes, Billy."

Billy: "Why would God give a Bible to us that did not make our kind of sense?"

Pastor: "Well, Billy, its not that… I think its…it makes sense, just does not give us the answers we like to hear, and says things that seem contradictory but really are not, to keep us from asking smart- aleck questions."

Billy: "So, God doesn't make our kind of sense to keep us humble?"

Pastor: "That's right, Billy. God wants to keep us humble, so he does not let us think we can be absolutely certain about the things some proud people are certain about."

Billy: "Pastor."

Pastor: "Yes, Billy."

Billy: "Are you certain about what you just said to me?"

Pastor: "(Showing obvious irritation) What do you think, Billy?"

Billy: "I think you just called yourself a proud person, but I don't know why, 'cause you are so smart and know so much about God, and how much he needs us."

Pastor: "Billy, why don't you go out and play, like the other children?"

Billy: "Why should I go out and play, when I can stay in here with you and learn how to save God?"

Pastor: "You need to be careful, Billy. I never said we save God. You are the one who said that, young man. I simply believe our choices are significant, and God does not treat us like robots or lifeless stones. He created us to have true human responsibility."

Billy: "Pastor"

Pastor: (Now looking quite angry at young Billy) "This will have to be the last question, young man! I have important things to do and you should be outside playing."

Billy: "When God put Abraham to sleep, was he telling him what he thought of his human responsibility?"

Pastor: (Seething with rage) I have a bad headache, Billy, and I can't answer any more of your questions, but I can tell you this. Whoever has been teaching you has been telling you things a boy your age should not even be thinking about. It sounds like you have been learning some kind of hyper-Calvinism. You better be careful, young man!

Billy: "I don't know about hyper- Calintisim, but I have been reading these things in the Bible. Thanks for straightening me out. I will try to cut these bad parts out. Can I borrow some scissors?

Pastor: (Rising from his chair) Get out of here, you, you, you…!

Billy: "That's O.K., pastor. I'll ask Joey. He was using some good scissors when we were cutting out our 'friends with Jesus' pictures for Sunday School. Good- by."
by John Pedersen
 
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Jon_

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I found an excellent article on this point that is actually completely in line with my position written by Vincent Cheung. It does not surprise me to find that my views are the same as his because we see almost completely eye to eye on doctrine and apologetics. In any case, have a look.

(Note that in this article, Cheung uses the term "sincere offer" in exactly the same sense that I use the term "genuine offer.")
The “Sincere Offer” of the Gospel, Part 1

Posted by Vincent Cheung on April 5, 2005

The doctrine in question has been called “the free offer,” “the well-meant offer,” and “the sincere offer” of the gospel (see “Note” below). My position is that it makes God into a schizophrenic fool. It is unbiblical and irrational, and thus must be rejected and opposed.
Let me offer a brief statement and explanation here.

Because we do not know beforehand who are numbered among the elect and the non-elect, and because Scripture commands us to preach to every person, we must not try to determine for ourselves who are the elect and the non-elect, and then preach the gospel only to those whom we consider the elect. Rather, we must indiscriminately preach the gospel to all men.

On the other hand, it is wrong and sinful to preach the gospel as if there is a chance for even the non-elect to obtain faith and be saved, as if God is sincerely telling them that he desires their salvation and that they could be saved (Luke 10:21; John 6:65). We do not know the precise content of God’s decree in election (as in who are the elect and who are the non-elect), and so we must not act as if we know. However, it does not follow that we should speak as if election is false when we preach the gospel.

Instead, in our message, we must make it clear that God seriously commands every person, whether elect or non-elect, to believe the gospel, thus making it every person’s moral obligation to believe — those who do will be saved and those who do not will be damned. But we must not present this as a “sincere offer” of salvation from God to even the non-elect. Faith comes only as God’s sovereign gift, and God has immutably decided to withhold this gift from the non-elect, but rather to actively harden them; therefore, to sincerely offer salvation to the non-elect as if God desires them to be saved and as if it is possible for them to be saved would be to lie to them in God’s name. There is no real or sincere offer of salvation to the non-elect, but only a real and serious command that they can never obey, and one that God will enforce against them with hellfire.

Again, this does not prevent us from indiscriminately preaching the gospel to all men, since it is neither our right nor duty to pick out the elect and preach only to them or to pick out the non-elect and exclude them. The point is that we must not present the gospel as a sincere offer to all, as if God’s “desire” can differ from his decree, as if God could or would decree against his “desire” (when Scripture teaches that he decrees what he desires — that is, his “good pleasure” — and what he desires, he decrees and makes certain), and as if it is possible for even the non-elect to be saved; rather, we must present the gospel as a serious command to all, as if it is required of all to believe (Acts 17:30), and as if God intends to summon the elect and harden the non-elect by the same preaching of the gospel (2 Corinthians 2:15-16).

In other words, the content and the preaching of the gospel could be and should be completely consistent with the doctrines of election and reprobation, as well as all other related doctrines. For many, to affirm the “sincere offer” is merely an excuse to believe like a Calvinist, but preach like an Arminian.

(to be continued…)

Note:
These terms are not always used consistently or with precision, so that they represent a small range of meanings. It is also true that not all who deny the “sincere offer” believe exactly the same things. Therefore, those who affirm the “sincere offer” might find themselves agreeing with me on certain points while others who affirm the “sincere offer” might disagree with those same points. Likewise, not everything that I say about or against the “sincere offer” apply equally to everyone who affirms the teaching.

In addition, those who affirm the “sincere offer” are often inconsistent in their language. For example, one might be denouncing those who deny the “sincere offer,” and then proceed to speak about the issue as concerning a “command,” as if an offer and a command are the same thing, when they are not the same at all. Of course, such inconsistencies make a precise discussion on the topic more difficult, especially when my purpose is to give only a brief explanation.

Another reason for confusion is that those who affirm the “sincere offer” often make unwarranted assumptions about those who deny it. For example, some of those who affirm the “sincere offer” assume that those who deny it would necessarily oppose the preaching of the gospel indiscriminately to all men. But this is not true — those who deny the “sincere offer” might still indiscriminately preach the gospel to all men, but they do so for a different reason and based on a different understanding of the situation.

Thus the best way to profit from our brief discussion is to consider the actual beliefs that I am dealing with, whether in my affirmations or denials, and not necessarily how the term is used in a particular case or by a particular person. For example, you might be someone who affirms the “sincere offer,” but you might find that I am not addressing exactly what you believe. In such instances, it is best to consider the very beliefs that I am addressing, instead of whether or not you would consider them as necessarily part of what someone who affirms the “sincere offer” must affirm.

The “Sincere Offer” of the Gospel, Part 2

Posted by Vincent Cheung on April 6, 2005
Continuing from the previous segment…

It follows that, when preaching the gospel (when we are dealing with the grace that saves), we should not tell our hearers that God loves all of them, but we should boldly declare that God loves only the elect and desires (and thus has decreed) their salvation, and that he hates the reprobates and desires (and thus has decreed) their damnation (Romans 9:13).

Now let me summarize the biblical understanding and approach of evangelism.

We are duty-bound to indiscriminately preach the gospel to all men for at least three reasons: 1. God commands us to preach the gospel to every person, 2. We do not know and should not try to discover beforehand who are the elect and who are the reprobates, and 3. The purpose of preaching the gospel is not only to summon the elect, but also to harden the reprobates.

It is right and proper to announce that God desires to save only the elect and has chosen only them for salvation, and that he will grant faith only to them, so that only they can believe. And it is right and proper to announce that God desires to damn the reprobates and has chosen them for damnation, and that he will not only withhold faith from them, but that he will also actively harden their minds against the gospel, making it impossible for them to believe.

Just as we should not and could not discover beforehand who are the elect and who are the reprobates, neither must our hearers try to determine for themselves whether they are among the elect or the reprobates, and then make that the basis as to whether they should call on God for salvation. In other words, upon hearing the gospel, one should not say to himself, “God saves only the elect, and I am probably among the reprobates anyway, so I should not even try to seek God for salvation.” Now, one who stubbornly thinks this way even when confronted with a clear explanation of the gospel of sovereign grace might indeed be one of the reprobates, and God has chosen to confirm this person in his damnation by means of this persistent deception.

Rather than concealing or misrepresenting the eternal decree of God to our hearers, when preaching the gospel, we should explain to them the truths that has immediate relevance to sin and grace, and to election and reprobation. But more than that, we should present to them the whole system of biblical doctrines, as clearly and comprehensively as we can manage and as time allows (Acts 17:23-31; Matthew 28:19-20; Luke 14:27-33). Then, we must admonish our hearers to sincerely and ernestly seek God for salvation through Christ by the means of grace, such as prayer, listening to sermons, and reading the Bible.

Since it would be impossible to sincerely seek or call upon God unless his power is already at work within a person’s heart, those who indeed sincerely obey and call out to God to save them through Christ are surely among the elect, in whom God has already started his sovereign work of conversion. But those who insincerely or superficially obey, and who after a while fall away, or those who refuse to obey at all, are among the non-elect, whose minds God has hardened even more by the preaching of the gospel (2 Corinthians 2:15-16; 2 Thessalonians 1:8).

Therefore, in rejecting the so-called “sincere offer” of the gospel, the preaching of the gospel is neither diminished nor rendered narrow and selective. Instead, the above is a consistent and necessary application of the explicit and implicit teachings of Scripture concerning the sovereignty of God, election and reprobation, and the preaching of the gospel. It is a biblical and coherent view that values the preaching of the gospel, and indeed the propagation of the whole system of biblical doctrines, to all men everywhere. Moreover, it acknowledges what Scripture explicitly teaches about the purpose and the effect of the indiscriminate preaching of the gospel, that is, to summon the elect and to harden the reprobates.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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cygnusx1

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“If any one again objects — this is making God act with duplicity, the answer is ready, that God always wishes the same thing, though by different ways, and in a manner inscrutable to us. Although, therefore, God’s will is simple, yet great variety is involved in it, as far as our senses are concerned. Besides, it is not surprising that our eyes should be blinded by intense light, so that we cannot certainly judge how God wishes all to be saved, and yet has devoted all the reprobate to eternal destruction, and wishes them to perish. While we look now through a glass darkly, we should be content with the measure of our own intelligence.” John Calvin on the sincerity of the offer of life in Eze 18:23
 
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cygnusx1

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My thoughts are summed up by this excellent page , we differ and it is clear at least to me that any denial of the well meant offer is Neo-calvinism , not Traditional Confessional Calvinism .......... It would be interesting to see this polled , after a few weeks .



The Free Offer Of The Gospel: Is It Biblical And Reformed?
(from the Free Church Witness)
There has been considerable discussion in recent times on the subject of the free offer of the Gospel. By the term "free offer" we do not, of course, mean the appeal system whereby coming to Christ is equated with some outward act (coming to the front of the meeting, putting one's hand up, signing a decision card) which can be done without a sovereign work of the Spirit of God renewing the heart and will. This would be Arminianism. Nor do we preach telling the unconverted, "Christ died for you", since this would be in conflict with the clear Biblical teaching that Christ died for the elect, and we do not know which unconverted sinners are God's elect. We do, however, mean that in the Gospel God sends to sinners an overture of mercy expressive of his kindness to them.

The hyper-Calvinist, of course, denies man's responsibility to repent and believe. He usually shares with the Arminian the assumption that God cannot command men to do what their sin has rendered them unable to do, that is repent and believe the Gospel. The former denies that God does so command, the latter denies man's natural inability to respond. The Biblical Calvinist insists that man's obligation to submit to God's authority is not diminished by his dependence on God's sovereign grace and power for enabling.



However, another position has appeared which is somewhere between hyper-Calvinism and orthodox Calvinism. The late Herman Hoeksema, an able theologian, and his denomination, the Protestant Reformed Churches of America, have taken the view that whilst God commands all men to repent and believe (and they are responsible to do so) yet there is no offer or overture of mercy expressive of God's lovingkindness or favour to those who hear (elect and non-elect). This is in line with their denial that God ever shows favour of any kind to the non-elect.

Are Westminster Confession presbyterians on the right track then, in insisting that the preaching of the Gospel entails a gracious overture of mercy addressed to all who hear? Let us look at this question:

1. The Gospel Contains a Command from God

"God commandeth all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17/30). Men are commanded to look to Christ for salvation (Isaiah 45/22). The Apostle Paul speaks of "the obedience of faith" (Rom. 16/26, cf Rom. 1/5). The reprobate are described as disobedient (1 Peter 2/7-8 and 4/17). Unbelief is sin (John 16/9, Heb. 3/12 and 17-18). This does not imply natural ability, but it does imply responsibility.

2. God Does Show Lovingkindness to the Non-elect in This Life

God does restrain sin, bestow material things and a variety of skills upon the non-elect in this present life. Not only so, but they are genuine expressions of God's lovingkindness to them. He is "kind unto the unthankful and to the evil" (Luke 6/35). God "blessed" reprobate Ishmael (Gen 17/20) and is "longsuffering" to the vessels of wrath (Rom. 9/22) who despise his goodness and forbearance (Rom.2/4). Indeed, it is their unthankfulness for genuine favours that renders them so guilty (Rom. 1/21). "The Lord is good to all" we read in Psalm 145/9. That our Puritan forbears understood this of men is indicated by the fact that they were content to have it rendered "good unto all men is the Lord" in the second version of the psalm in the Scottish psalter which had been so carefully scrutinized. It is in the sense that God shows love or favour to the non-elect as well as to the elect in this world that we use the term "common grace," though we are not particularly concerned to defend the term, only the concept. This non-saving kindness of God to the non-elect in this world is an expression of his sovereignty. Some object that the idea of God showing undeserved favour to a sinner only for a time is inconceivable. This is due to a misapplication of the doctrine of God's unchangeableness. The denial of common grace supposedly in defence of God's sovereignty actually becomes a denial of that sovereignty. God can show mercy as and when and how he pleases.

3. Our Duty to Love is Patterned after God's Love

In Matt. 5/44-48 (cf Luke 6/32-36) our love to our neighbour, even our enemies, is that which conforms us to our Heavenly Father. The family likeness is shown in our doing as he does. We do not know whether our neighbour or enemy is one of the elect or not, but still we are to love them. And this love is to be based on what we do know of our Father in Heaven, not what we do not know (i.e. whom he has chosen to salvation). We are to be merciful because our Father is merciful (Luke 6/36).

Further, the command to love our neighbour (elect or reprobate) is part of that law which is the outshining of God's holy character. Does God command us to love those whom he does not? Is the scope of our love to be greater than his?

In the next world, we will not show love to the lost, because God does not. Conformity to God is the key.

4. Christ fulfilled the Moral Law Entirely

The command to love our neighbour was perfectly fulfilled by Christ. He was "made under the law, and did perfectly fulfil it" (Westminster Confession VIII/IV). In order for this to be true, he must have shown love to both elect and reprobate neighbours, as God requires us to do. Moreover, to say that Christ only loved his neighbour in his human nature is heretically to divide the person of Christ, who "was, and continueth ever to be, God and man, in two distinct natures, and one person, for ever" (Shorter Catechism Ans. 21). His tears shed over Jerusalem (Luke 19/41-42) were human tears to be sure, but they were the tears of a Divine Person in his human nature just as his sufferings were the sufferings of a Divine Person in his human nature and therefore both infinite in value and substitutionary for men.



5. God's Love is Expressed in the Gospel

a. It is more than a declaration of God's love for the elect. Some say that God's love is set forth in the Gospel, meaning only that his love as shown to the elect is preached as the meaning of the Cross is declared. This is true, as far as it goes. Yet there is more to be said:

b. God expresses his lovingkindness to all who hear the Gospel. This is shown:-

(i) In the Content of the Gospel
It includes an expression of delight in the welfare of those who hear even though he has not decreed that all who hear will believe.

We can compare this with the fact that God commands all men to repent and therefore be holy and delights in that holiness contemplated, but does not decree that all should actually be holy. Likewise, God invites all men to true and eternal happiness and, as an expression of his sovereign love and kindness, takes pleasure in the happiness in view without having decreed to make them all believe and attain that happiness.

In short, just as God in his holiness genuinely commands all men to be holy without making them holy, so he in his love genuinely invites all men to be happy without making them eternally happy. (Deut. 5/29, 32/29, Psalm 81/13, Isaiah 48/18.) God can express a delight in that which he has not decreed shall come to pass. Often the denial of the free offer stems from a noble, but misdirected, desire not to represent God as thwarted, frustrated or helpless. This explains why the denial of the free offer in history has often been linked with Antinomianism. If an unfulfilled overture is inconsistent with God's sovereignty, why not also an unfulfilled command? The truth is, of course, that neither imply that God is not in control.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked should turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel" (Ezekiel 33/11). The context makes it plain that those whose death God takes no pleasure in includes those who do not turn and who die as well as those who do turn and live (see vs. 8-9).

Calvin writing on the similar passage in Ezekiel 18/23 (he died before he finished his commentary on Ezekiel) states, "We hold, then, that God wills not the death of a sinner, since he calls all equally to repentance, and promises himself prepared to receive them if they only seriously repent. If anyone should object, then there is no election of God, by which he has predestinated a fixed number to salvation, the answer is at hand: the prophet does not here speak of God's secret command, but only recalls miserable men from despair, that they may apprehend the hope of pardon, and repent and embrace the offered salvation".

So the overture of the Gospel expresses God's lovingkindness to those to whom it is addressed. And it is addressed to sinners in general, even those still looking for satisfaction outside of Christ, who are spending "money for that which is not bread and their labour for that which satisfieth not" (Isaiah 55/2) and who cannot therefore be confined to the elect.

(ii)In the Godly Compassion of the Preacher
The kind of godly compassion the Apostle Paul expresses in Romans 9/1-3 and 10/1 is the fruit of the Spirit's work in the soul. The Holy Spirit does not create in the people of God compassion that is contrary to his own as to its objects. When the compassionate Christian is a preacher, he expresses that God-given compassion to guilty hell-deserving sinners in his preaching as a reflection of the compassion of the Lord in whose name and on whose behalf he speaks. "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Cor. 5/20).

6. The Westminster Standards

The term "offer" or "free offer" is used in the Westminster Standards (Westminster Confession of Faith VII/III; Larger Catechism Ans. 32, 63, 68; Shorter Catechism Ans. 31 and 86).



The Larger Catechism puts it beyond doubt that the term is used in reference to non-elect persons; "...who, for their wilful neglect and contempt of grace offered to them, being justly left in their unbelief, do never truly come to Jesus Christ" (Larger Catechism Ans. 68).


Attempts have been made of late to rob the term "free offer" of much of its real meaning, as if it meant no more that "present" or "exhibit" (see H. Hanko, Protestant Reformed Journal Nov. 1986, pp. 16f). The intended meaning is far more than this. Anyone wishing to catch the true meaning of these terms and the general outlook of the Puritan period should read the "Sum of Saving Knowledge" drawn up by David Dickson and James Durham and often printed along with the Westminster Confession and Catechisms, no doubt due to its claim to be "A Brief Sum of Christian Doctrine contained in the Holy Scriptures, and holden forth in the foresaid Confession of Faith and Catechisms". The section on "Warrants to Believe" and its handling of Isaiah 55/1-5 and 2 Cor. 5/19-21 are especially noteworthy and the many references to God's promises, offers of grace, sweet invitations, loving requests etc.
7. Submission to Scripture

Do you have difficulty reconciling the genuine overtures of the Gospel with the truth of God's sovereign election and predestination? To allow any such difficulty to cause you to reject the plain Biblical testimony to the reality of these gracious overtures is to bow down to the false humanistic god of the finality of human reason and is the very antithesis of true Biblical Calvinism. Whilst all of God's Word is reasonable, our powers of reason are those of a finite and fallen creature. We must lean upon the words that have proceeded out of the mouth of God. It is fallen man's pride in his own reason causing him to heed again the words of the serpent, "Hath God said?" (Gen. 3/1).

Let us glorify God and say, "I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right" (Psalm 119/128).


http://www.loughbrickland.org/Articles/freeoffer.shtml
 
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Thank you for the article, cyg. I read through it hoping to identify some new arguments, but I could not find any. There are a few things that this article said that are just flat wrong, though, and they all occured in the conclusion.

cygnusx1 said:
7. Submission to Scripture

Do you have difficulty reconciling the genuine overtures of the Gospel with the truth of God's sovereign election and predestination? To allow any such difficulty to cause you to reject the plain Biblical testimony to the reality of these gracious overtures is to bow down to the false humanistic god of the finality of human reason and is the very antithesis of true Biblical Calvinism.
This is an outrageous statement. Whence does reason and rationality flow? From God. God did not give us logic and reason so that with it we might distort and confound his Word. He gave us these faculties because by them we are able to understand that which he has written to us. I find this to be an entirely Fideistic argument that quite simply says, "The Bible is contradictory, so you must believe a contradiction, instead of believing in 'human reason' that identifies and resolves the contradiction." This is absurd. Moreover, it is just flat wrong to say the Bible teaches the "free offer" of the Gospel. It does not. He did not even present any Scripture that refute this.

I will say that he did an excellent job of portraying the Arminian view of God in section 5.i, though. And his assertion that the denial of the "free offer" being historically identified with "Antinomianism" is an highly fallacious rhetorical device, intended to further taint the position that he cannot refute. If he cannot rationally combat it, then he will simply smear its reputation. Terrible.

cygnusx1 said:
Whilst all of God's Word is reasonable, our powers of reason are those of a finite and fallen creature. We must lean upon the words that have proceeded out of the mouth of God.
Without reason, how are we to discern the words that God has written therein? This argument destroys itself because it completely demolishes the very foundation upon which such exegesis may be conducted.

cygnusx1 said:
It is fallen man's pride in his own reason causing him to heed again the words of the serpent, "Hath God said?" (Gen. 3/1).
This isn't even an argument, just an ad hominem attack on those who disagree with his misinterpretation of the Scriptures.

cygnusx1 said:
Let us glorify God and say, "I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right" (Psalm 119/128).
Which I do with my full heart.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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cygnusx1

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Hi Jon , the guy isn't against reason , as you have said God gave us reason ........... what the guy is against is raising human reason above God's revelation : Rationalism !


If we see two seemingly opposing ideas in The Scriptures sometimes all we can do is accept them , and bow and worship.

Take the doctrine of God's Sovereignty and man's Responsibility , both are taught in The Scriptures (sometimes in the very same verse!) yet , there are those who cannot hang onto what is written because their minds cannot reconcile two seemingly opposing thoughts , so they hack and hew the text to make it fit , thus either denying God is Sovereign , or denying man is responsible.

Jesus weeping over Jerusalem is clearly based on His memories and experiences as God! "how often would I .......... "

"Seeing that in His Word He calls all alike to salvation, and this is the object of preaching, that all should take refuge in His faith and protection, it is right to say that He wishes all to gather to Him. Now the nature of the Word shows us that here there is no description of the secret counsel of God - just His wishes. Certainly those whom He wishes effectively to gather, He draws inwardly by His Spirit, and calls them not merely by man's outward voice. If anyone objects that it is absurd to split God's will, I answer that this is exactly our belief, that His will is one and undivided: but because our minds cannot plumb the profound depths of His secret election to suit our infirmity, the will of God is set before us as double." John Calvin (Comment on Matthew 23:37)


and there are many texts that show real dissapointment in God .
To anthropomorphasise these statements is to depersanalyse God!


''But if it is so, (you will say,) little faith can be put in the Gospel promises, which, in testifying concerning the will of God, declare that he wills what is contrary to his inviolable decree. Not at all; for however universal the promises of salvation may be, there is no discrepancy between them and the predestination of the reprobate, provided we attend to their effect. We know that the promises are effectual only when we receive them in faith, but, on the contrary, when faith is made void, the promise is of no effect. If this is the nature of the promises, let us now see whether there be any inconsistency between the two things, viz., that God, by an eternal decree, fixed the number of those whom he is pleased to embrace in love, and on whom he is pleased to display his wrath, and that he offers salvation indiscriminately to all. I hold that they are perfectly consistent, for all that is meant by the promise is, just that his mercy is offered to all who desire and implore it, and this none do, save those whom he has enlightened. Moreover, he enlightens those whom he has predestinated to salvation. Thus the truth of the promises remains firm and unshaken, so that it cannot be said there is any disagreement between the eternal election of God and the testimony of his grace which he offers to believers. But why does he mention all men? Namely that the consciences of the righteous may rest the more secure when they understand that there is no difference between sinners, provided they have faith, and that the ungodly may not be able to allege that they have not an asylum to which they may retake themselves from the bondage of sin, while they ungratefully reject the offer which is made to them. Therefore, since by the Gospel the mercy of God is offered to both, it is faith, in other words, the illumination of God, which distinguishes between the righteous and the wicked, the former feeling the efficacy of the Gospel, the latter obtaining no benefit from it. Illumination itself has eternal election for its rule.'' John Calvin (Institutes 3:24:17)
 
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cygnusx1

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Matthew 23 :37; Luke 13:34. In this passage there should be no dispute that the will of Christ in the direction of a certain benign result is set in contrast with the will of those who are contemplated as the subjects of such blessing. These two stand in opposition to each other—I have willed (or wished), ye have not willed (or wished).

Not only so. The will of Christ to a certain end is opposed to that which actually occurred. Jesus says he often wished the occurrence of something which did not come to pass and therefore willed (or wished) the occurrence of that which God had not secretly or decretively willed.

That which Jesus willed is stated to be the gathering together of the children of Jerusalem, as a hen gathers together her chickens under her wings. This surely means the gathering together of the people of Jerusalem under his saving and protecting grace. So we have the most emphatic declaration on the part of Christ of his having yearned for the conversion and salvation of the people of Jerusalem

It might be said that Jesus is here giving expression simply to his human desire and that this would not indicate, therefore, the desire or will of God. In other words, it might be said that we are not justified in transferring this expression of his human desire to the divine desire or will, either in respect of Jesus' own divine consciousness or the divine consciousness of the other persons of the Godhead.

Christ was indeed truly human and his human mind and will operated within the limitations inseparable from human nature. His human nature was not omniscient and could not in the nature of the case be cognisant of the whole decretive will of God. In his human nature he wrought within limits that could not apply to the specifically divine knowledge, desire and will. Hence it might be argued that on this occasion he gave expression to the yearnings of his truly human will and therefore to a will that could not be aware of the whole secret purpose of God. Furthermore, it might be said that Jesus was speaking of what he willed in the past before he was aware, in his human consciousness, of the judgment that was to befall Jerusalem, stated in verses 38, 39. A great deal more might be said along this line that would lend plausibility to such an interpretation.

We are not able to regard such an interpretation of our Lord's statement as tenable. It is true our Lord was human. It is true he spoke as human. And it is true he spoke these words or gave utterance to this lament through the medium of his human nature. The will he spoke of on this occasion was certainly one that engaged the total exercise of his human desire and will. But there is much more that needs to be considered if we are properly to assess the significance of this incident and of Jesus' utterance. Jesus is speaking here in his capacity as the Messiah and Saviour. He is speaking therefore as the God-man. He is speaking of the will on his part as the Messiah and Saviour to embrace the people of Jerusalem in the arms of his saving grace and covenant love. The majesty that belongs to his person in this unique capacity shines through the whole episode and it is quite improper to abstract the divine aspect of his person from the capacity in which he gives utterance to this will and from the prerogative in virtue of which he could give expression to the utterance. What needs to be appreciated is that the embrace of which Jesus here speaks is that which he exercises in that unique office and prerogative that belong to him as the God-man Messiah and Saviour. In view of the transcendent, divine function which he says he wished to perform, it would be illegitimate for us to say that here we have simply an example of his human desire or will. It is surely, therefore, a revelation to us of the divine will as well as of the human. Our Lord in the exercise of his most specific and unique function as the God-man gives expression to a yearning will on his part that responsiveness on the part of the people of Jerusalem would have provided the necessary condition for the bestowal of his saving and protecting love, a responsiveness, nevertheless, which it was not the decretive will of God to create in their hearts.

In this connection we must not fail to keep in mind the principle borne out by Jesus' own repeated declarations, especially as recorded in the Gospel of John, namely, the perfect harmony and coalescence of will on the part of the Father and of the Son (cf. John 12:49,50; 14:10, 24; 17:8). To aver that Jesus in the expressed will of Matt. 23:37 is not disclosing the divine will but simply his own human will would tend towards very grave prejudice to this principle. And, viewing the matter from the standpoint of revelation, how would it affect our conception of Jesus as the supreme revelation of the Father if in this case we were not to regard his words as a transcript of the Father's will as well as of his own? We can readily see the difficulties that face us if we do not grant the truly revelatory significance of our Lord’s statement.

In this lament over Jerusalem, furthermore, there is surely disclosed to us something of the will of our Lord as the Son of God and divine Son of man that lies back of, and is expressed in, such an invitation as Matthew 11:28. Here we have declared, if we may use the thought of Matthew 23:37, his will to embrace the labouring and heavy laden in the arms of his saving and loving protection. And it is an invitation to all such to take advantage of that will of his. The fulness and freeness of the invitation need not now be argued. Its character as such is patent. It is important, however, to note that the basis and background of this invitation are supplied by the uniqueness of the relation that he sustains to the Father as the Son, the transcendent commission that is given to him as the Son, and the sovereignty, coordinate with that of the Father, which he exercises because of that unique relationship and in that unique capacity. We should not fail toperceive the interrelations of these two passages (Matt. 23:37; 11:28) and to recognize that the former is redolent of his divine prerogative and revelatory of his divine will. Verses 38 and 39 confirm the high prerogative in terms of which he is speaking, for there he pronounces the divine judgment. And in this connection we cannot forget John 5:26,27, "For as the Father hath life in himself, even so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. And he hath given tohim authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man."

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:LzLJ9cESTqcJ:public.csusm.edu/public/guests/rsclark/Free_Offer.html+ezekiel+18:23+calvin&hl=en
 
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cygnusx1

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But what is the love of God to which John 3:16 gives this prominence? Does it have reference to the elect only or to all men? Some have answered that its immediate purpose has to do with neither; because, they say, ‘the world’ here does not have numerical so much as ethical significance: it stands for ‘the evil, the darkness, the sinner’. God so loved those who are utterly contrary to himself that he gave his Son to die for them! As B. B.Warfield has written on the love of God in this text: It is not that it is so great that it is able to extend over the whole of a big world: it is so great that it is able to prevail over the Holy God’s hatred and abhorrence of sin. For herein is love, that God could love the world – the world that lies in the evil one: that God who is all-holy and just and good, could so love this world that He gave His only begotten Son for it, – that He might not judge it, but that it might be saved.

The same writer concludes: ‘The whole debate as to whether the love here celebrated distributes itself to each and every man that enters into the composition of the world, or terminates on the elect alone chosen out of the world, lies thus outside the immediate scope of the passage.’ But granting that the message of the cross is one of love to those who by nature are the enemies of God, we are still faced with the fact that the text provides no justification for limiting this love to elect sinners. For if the elect are the ‘world’ that God loves, why is it that only some out of that world (‘whosoever believes in him’) come to salvation? There is surely a distinction in the text between the larger number who are the objects of love and the smaller number who believe. It would be a strange reading of John 3:16 to make those who believe correspond exclusively with ‘the world’ that God loves. Such a divine as John Calvin had no hesitation therefore in saying on John 3:16: ‘Although there is nothing in the world deserving of God’s favour, he nevertheless shows he is favourable to the whole lost world when he calls all without exception to faith in Christ, which is indeed an entry into life.’

If this is so, it is proof enough that there is a general proclamation of the love of God which comes to men in the preaching of the cross. Individuals everywhere may be directed, as Nicodemus was, to God’s love for the unworthy. We are by no means dependent on John 3:16 alone for this understanding. Surely the same truth shines throughout our Lord’s ministry. He, ‘the Friend of sinners’, did not limit love to the disciples, nor yet to those whom he knew would become disciples. We read, ‘When he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion for them’ (Matt. 9:36). Moreover we find this tender compassion individualized: of the rich young ruler, who turned away from Christ in unbelief, we are explicitly told, ‘Jesus, looking at him, loved him’ (Mark 10:21). What but that same love can explain such words as, ‘You will not come unto me that you might have life’ (John 5:40)? Or the tears that accompanied, ‘O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!’ (Luke 13:34; Matt 23:37)? ‘Love towards all mankind in general,’ John Owen wrote, is enforced upon us by the example of Christ’s ‘own love and goodness, which are extended unto all’. And Owen encouraged his hearers to dwell on the ‘love of Christ, in his invitations of sinners to come unto him that they may be saved’ . . . Some have sought to escape from the force of Christ’s example by referring it to his human nature and not to his divine. But as R. L. Dabney comments: ‘It would impress the common Christian mind with a most painful feeling to be thus seemingly taught that holy humanity is more generous and tender than God.’ . . . Universal gospel preaching is proof of the reality of universal divine love. It is the same love of which we read in Ezekiel 33:11: ‘As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?’ When the Pharisees complained of Christ, ‘This man receives sinners, and eats with them,’ Jesus responded by speaking of the character of God: he is like the father of the prodigal son who ‘saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him’ (Luke 15:20). Christ’s unwillingness that men should be lost is the same as the Father’s. He desires that all men everywhere should turn and live . . . We conclude that the death of Christ is to be preached to all, and preached in the conviction that there is love for all. ‘In the gospel,’ said an eminent preacher of the Scottish Highlands, ‘the provision of God’s love for the salvation of sinners is revealed and offered . . .


http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?773
 
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Jon_

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cygnusx1 said:
Hi Jon , the guy isn't against reason , as you have said God gave us reason ........... what the guy is against is raising human reason above God's revelation : Rationalism !
What is rationalism? How do you know that a specific view is "rationalistic" or not? Who makes that judgment? Other humans? Isn't the point being emphasized the infallibility of human observation? On what basis is a rational explanation for apparent contradictions in Scripture an invalid explanation?


cygnusx1 said:
If we see two seemingly opposing ideas in The Scriptures sometimes all we can do is accept them , and bow and worship.
You might do that, but I certainly do not. God has revealed these things to us to be understood, not to confuse us. Were God to reveal what "seems" to be a contradiction, then it is not really a contradiction, it only appears that way at first. As God is not the author of confusion, it follows that there is a rational explanation for why these things appear contradictory and why they are not. I seek out that explanation to the glory of God, whereas others refuse to do so because their hearts have not been prepared by the Holy Spirit to receive the full truth of God. Thus, they maintain their contradictory views and encourage others to do so as well.

cygnusx1 said:
Take the doctrine of God's Sovereignty and man's Responsibility , both are taught in The Scriptures (sometimes in the very same verse!) yet , there are those who cannot hang onto what is written because their minds cannot reconcile two seemingly opposing thoughts , so they hack and hew the text to make it fit , thus either denying God is Sovereign , or denying man is responsible.
There is no problem with God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, though. There is no contradiction, there is no mystery. God is sovereign and he holds man responsible for his actions. That's all there is to it. Any protests against this arrangement are protests against God's sovereignty and are thus null and void.

cygnusx1 said:
Jesus weeping over Jerusalem is clearly based on His memories and experiences as God! "how often would I .......... "
Whoa, whoa, whoa, "based on his memories and experiences as God"? What does that mean?

cygnusx1 said:
and there are many texts that show real dissapointment in God .
cygnusx1 said:
To anthropomorphasise these statements is to depersanalyse God!

Can you show any kind of proof that this is an invalid view? All you are doing is saying that in your opinion this is incorrect. But that doesn't say anything. Where does it say in Scripture that at such and such point we must abandon reason and simply believe what it apparently contradictory? It is true that the secret things belong to the Lord, but these things are not secret. God has revealed them to us in his Holy Word.

If it is true that it is acceptable to simply believe apparent contradictions in Scripture, then that makes Arminianism a valid interpretation, because it supposes many contradictions in Scripture. What makes your view of the genuine offer of the Gospel to the reprobate anymore reasonable than the Arminian's?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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cygnusx1

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Jon_ said:
What is rationalism? How do you know that a specific view is "rationalistic" or not? Who makes that judgment? Other humans? Isn't the point being emphasized the infallibility of human observation? On what basis is a rational explanation for apparent contradictions in Scripture an invalid explanation?



You might do that, but I certainly do not. God has revealed these things to us to be understood, not to confuse us. Were God to reveal what "seems" to be a contradiction, then it is not really a contradiction, it only appears that way at first. As God is not the author of confusion, it follows that there is a rational explanation for why these things appear contradictory and why they are not. I seek out that explanation to the glory of God, whereas others refuse to do so because their hearts have not been prepared by the Holy Spirit to receive the full truth of God. Thus, they maintain their contradictory views and encourage others to do so as well.


There is no problem with God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, though. There is no contradiction, there is no mystery. God is sovereign and he holds man responsible for his actions. That's all there is to it. Any protests against this arrangement are protests against God's sovereignty and are thus null and void.


Whoa, whoa, whoa, "based on his memories and experiences as God"? What does that mean?


Can you show any kind of proof that this is an invalid view? All you are doing is saying that in your opinion this is incorrect. But that doesn't say anything. Where does it say in Scripture that at such and such point we must abandon reason and simply believe what it apparently contradictory? It is true that the secret things belong to the Lord, but these things are not secret. God has revealed them to us in his Holy Word.

If it is true that it is acceptable to simply believe apparent contradictions in Scripture, then that makes Arminianism a valid interpretation, because it supposes many contradictions in Scripture. What makes your view of the genuine offer of the Gospel to the reprobate anymore reasonable than the Arminian's?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Hi Jon .... First off do you accept that The Gospel is Offered to The Elect as well as the Reprobate ?

You said you believe in preaching The Gospel to all , so you cannot distinguish between the Elect and the Reprobate ....... and neither should you.
The Gospel message is exactly the same message to both Elect and Reprobate , "Repent , believe the Good News , Obey the Calling of God and You will be saved"
Now just how do you get to a point when you deny it is a sincere offer of salvation when the Message doesn't change ?
Do you think God is acting with duplicity , that The Lord is only interested in salvation for the Elect ?
Jesus wept over sinners , Paul wept over sinners , and Jesus Loved the Rich Young Ruler who walked away from Him!
Sure I can give you scripture upon scripture that show God has been dissapointed by sinners , but what is the point , you will only deny that they have any real meaning ........ "they are just anthropomorphisms " etc etc "

BTW , Arminians make the same stand on rationalism that Neo Calvinists make ..... they see it as impossible to have a Gospel call to men dead in Trespasses and sins who are Totally Depraved and have lost their Free-will to come to God , and they therefore deny what they see as a massive contradiction ...... your arguement is the same , it is just coming from the other end!
 
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Jon_

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cygnusx1 said:
Hi Jon .... First off do you accept that The Gospel is Offered to The Elect as well as the Reprobate ?
Outwardly, yes. The Gospel is preached by men to the elect and the reprobate.


cygnusx1 said:
You said you believe in preaching The Gospel to all , so you cannot distinguish between the Elect and the Reprobate ....... and neither should you.
cygnusx1 said:
The Gospel message is exactly the same message to both Elect and Reprobate , "Repent , believe the Good News , Obey the Calling of God and You will be saved" Now just how do you get to a point when you deny it is a sincere offer of salvation when the Message doesn't change ?



Because that message only reaches the ears of the regenerate:
(John 6:63 AV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

(1 Cor. 2:14 AV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The words of our Lord and the Apostle quite clearly show that the reprobate never hear the Gospel message. If God intended it to reach their ears, he would remove their heart of stone and give them an heart of flesh (Ezek 11:19; 36:26), by which they might receive the words of life.

[QUOTE=cygnusx1]Do you think God is acting with duplicity , that The Lord is only interested in salvation for the Elect ?[/quote]
No. In fact, my position is that God's work is made even more coherent in the understanding that the Gospel is not for the reprobate. The Gospel is spread to men by men; therefore, God does not engage in an act of duplicity because he never offers salvation to the reprobate. That he requires us to preach it to all men is nothing more than a righteous requirement of us, and one required by the fact that we cannot know his elect. Because we are incapable of determining who will receive the Gospel or not, we must deliver it to all, so that those that are elect will have the circumstances by which they might come to faith in Christ. But the Scriptures never say the Gospel is extended to the reprobate.

I think a better argument could be made that God acts in duplicity if we say that the Gospel is a sincere offer to all, but that God wills some should receive it and some should reject it. If God sincerely wishes all men to be saved, but predestines them to hell, then that would be deceptive! The "sincere offer" position is the duplicitous position.

cygnusx1 said:
Jesus wept over sinners , Paul wept over sinners , and Jesus Loved the Rich Young Ruler who walked away from Him!
cygnusx1 said:
Sure I can give you scripture upon scripture that show God has been dissapointed by sinners , but what is the point , you will only deny that they have any real meaning ........ "they are just anthropomorphisms " etc etc "

I have given you philosophical and theological grounds for anthropomorphic interpretation. You have given no countergarument whatsoever beyond that you don't accept my arguments. That's a completely unreasonable position from which to argue. Simply asserting and reasserting your view in the face of logical and theological proofs against it will not avail you anything. Unless you can provide your own rational arguments as to why your interpretation is superior, it is simply irrational to continue with this line of reasoning.

[QUOTE=cygnusx1]BTW , Arminians make the same stand on rationalism that Neo Calvinists make ..... they see it as impossible to have a Gospel call to men dead in Trespasses and sins who are Totally Depraved and have lost their Free-will to come to God , and they therefore deny what they see as a massive contradiction ...... your arguement is the same , it is just coming from the other end![/QUOTE]
No, my argument is not even anywhere close to being the same, cyg. This is a red herring--quite the fallacy.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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cygnusx1

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Jon_ said:
Outwardly, yes. The Gospel is preached by men to the elect and the reprobate.
Hi Jon ,
Therefore the Offer of Salvation upon Repentance and Faith is clearly aimed at both!
A denial of this is against both scripture and logic.





Because that message only reaches the ears of the regenerate:
(John 6:63 AV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.



(1 Cor. 2:14 AV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.




Your assertion that the Gospel message "only reaches the ears of the regenerate" is quite clearly false!
You have taken scripture that speaks of Spiritual hearing and ruled out all other kinds ....... for example , the kind that holds Reprobate Jews in terrible Judgment!

"But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." Romans 10:18



The words of our Lord and the Apostle quite clearly show that the reprobate never hear the Gospel message. If God intended it to reach their ears, he would remove their heart of stone and give them an heart of flesh (Ezek 11:19; 36:26), by which they might receive the words of life.
False logic!
The genuiness of the Gospel offer can never be judged by it's rejection or acceptance........ what is offered is offered to Elect and Reprobate in words of ''whosoever will ''



[QUOTE=cygnusx1]Do you think God is acting with duplicity , that The Lord is only interested in salvation for the Elect ?[/quote]

No. In fact, my position is that God's work is made even more coherent in the understanding that the Gospel is not for the reprobate. The Gospel is spread to men by men; therefore, God does not engage in an act of duplicity because he never offers salvation to the reprobate.

not only is that not what the Bible teaches , it is against Reformed Creeds...

2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.


3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Romans 2

notice these Reprobates were seemingly unaware that God's kindness was an evidence of God's desire to "lead them to repentance" , but they abuse God's love and kindness and heap up wrath , why ? because they abused God's love , and rejected the Gospel offer!


That he requires us to preach it to all men is nothing more than a righteous requirement of us, and one required by the fact that we cannot know his elect.
more false reasoning .... Jesus knew who was Elect and who wasn't , yet His message was for all : come , whosover will , take of the water of life freely!

Because we are incapable of determining who will receive the Gospel or not, we must deliver it to all, so that those that are elect will have the circumstances by which they might come to faith in Christ. But the Scriptures never say the Gospel is extended to the reprobate.
Of course it is , the Gospel message goes out indiscriminately , the Reprobate Resist God's Spirit!

I think a better argument could be made that God acts in duplicity if we say that the Gospel is a sincere offer to all, but that God wills some should receive it and some should reject it. If God sincerely wishes all men to be saved, but predestines them to hell, then that would be deceptive! The "sincere offer" position is the duplicitous position.
Read Calvin , he recognised both mystery and revelation in the 'Gospel offer'... as do the Reformed creeds.
God may delight in that which He does not decree , and you have never sufficiently answered how God can command you to be perfect and not decree it !


I have given you philosophical and theological grounds for anthropomorphic interpretation.
they have no basis except to fit into a framework where God ONLY decrees things!

You have given no countergarument whatsoever beyond that you don't accept my arguments.
Not at all , I have asked several questions , and reasoned from Calvin , Reformed creeds and Scripture.

That's a completely unreasonable position from which to argue. Simply asserting and reasserting your view in the face of logical and theological proofs against it will not avail you anything. Unless you can provide your own rational arguments as to why your interpretation is superior, it is simply irrational to continue with this line of reasoning.

You are in a predicament seeing as you have said you believe the Gospel offer goes out to Elect and reprobate (but only it is only meant for the elect), then you admit that you think this is down to our ignorance of who is Elect and who isn't ....... but it is not merely us preaching the Good News ......... it is God in us!

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20


No, my argument is not even anywhere close to being the same, cyg. This is a red herring--quite the fallacy.
it is no fallacy , you are using reason to argue that God cannot , does not offer salvation to the Reprobate because they cannot Spiritually discern it !
Just as the Arminian argues man cannot be totally depraved otherwise God wouldn't commanded sinners to Repent!

the same false logic!


God can and God does require and command that which all mankind both Reprobate and Elect cannot of themselves give.

On the one hand God gives the Elect everything needed to obtain salvation , but on the other hand , God's Love revealed through both temporal mercies and the Good News of salvation to the reprobate result in two things : God's Love is shown even to Reprobates , and their wickedness and extreme depravity is laid bare ........... no excuse can a reprobate give , for even when offered Life by a substitutionary perfect sacrifice , he says NO!
 
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