Does god hate scientists?

[Ectezus]

Here on Earth there is a group of people that value certain things like objectivity and testable evidence before they reach a conclusion. Most notably: the vast majority of scientists.

To them, and pretty much every non-believer there simply isn't enough testable evidence that justifies changing your whole life to what a really old book says you must do.

So does god hate scientists? Or people in general who value facts over blind faith?

You see, it's not that I want to be a monkey. There's no logical reason for me to really want that (unlike the idea of being created in the image of a god). But all testable evidence points towards Evolution, not Creation. Sure blind faith can overcome this, but not all people work that way as God should know when he supposedly created us. People who live a perfectly moral and healthy life, helping and respecting others, yet they get punished for having a different view on how to reach a good conclusion.


Take miracles for example. Not a single scientific research showed that miracles are real. Once again, it's not because scientists don't want to believe miracles are possible, all the testable evidence simply points out in the other direction:

a) Miracles are often subjective or vague. Not everyone considers a child saved from under a collapsed building after 3 days a miracle. Where was god when the earthquake happened?
b) These supposedly miracles only happen to a small group of people, never on times square or anything. And usually to already highly religious people. They never happen in a scientific test!
c) All of the so claimed miracles have no trace of being different from the ordinary.
And seriously, in this modern age of almost everyone having a digital camera in his or her phone, you would expect some people to at least capture some of the supposedly miracles going on...

I personally would convert right here on the spot if God shows me non-subjetive non-vague testable evidence of his existence. But he doesn't.
Sure you can argue that god works in mysterious ways, or that he wants to keep a *ahum* 'low profile'... But the bottom line is:

There is a large group of people who want concrete evidence to make informed and educated decisions. It seems to me that god apparently doesn't want those people in Heaven.

- Ectezus

 

[pgp_protector]

Does god hate scientists? No.

 

[Autumnleaf]

How did everything come out of nothing? God isn't going to take you by the hand and tell you all the answers to all the questions you have just to satisfy your curiosity. God is also not a magician. He is a creator who uses rules to run his creation. Like a man who makes and engine and relies on the rules of chemistry and physics for it to run. Did man invent Pi or e=mc^2? No, but we realize they are there. Since there are rules to how things work in the universe it seems counter intuitive to me that God would not like scientists. If anything, he seems to think like they do sometimes.

 

[Ectezus]

How did everything come out of nothing?

This really is a weak argument. If god has always been been there then so can matter. If god was created without the help of another god, then so can matter.

The whole point of the topic is that no testable evidence exists that points in the direction of god. For everything so far there has been a natural explanation where there is no need for a supernatural one.

Please, don't try to make any more points of "The evidence is right there, how can you not see it, you're so stupid!" This is not what the topic is about. The fact of the matter is there is no testable evidence. Not everyone looks at a tree and thinks "God's awesome!".
You only prove my point that god's evidence is subjective.

- Ectezus

 

[KWCrazy]

So does god hate scientists? Or people in general who value facts over blind faith?

What facts are these? That matter cannot be created, but it was? That life cannot originate from nothing, but it did? That adaptaion adds genetic information... but it doesn't? That the fossil record shows evolution, but it doesn't? The facts are that ALL theories of origination are impossible.

But all testable evidence points towards Evolution, not Creation.

No testable evidence points toward evolution. Irradiated fruit flies are still fruit flies. Mutations do not invent genetic information or lead to increased complexity.

Take miracles for example. Not a single scientific research showed that miracles are real.

It is faulty logic to seek a natural explanation of a supernatural event.

Miracles are often subjective or vague.

No, miracles are violations of natural law. A dead child coming back to life could be a miracle.

These supposedly miracles only happen to a small group of people, never on times square or anything.

Jesus was seen by hundreds after His death. You are discounting the fact that faith is a requirement for salvation. God isn't going to prove Hisself to you.

I personally would convert right here on the spot if God shows me non-subjetive non-vague testable evidence of his existence.

If you had the courage of your convictions to actually seek Him, you would find Him. Funny, off all the times people like you have talked about finding God, none of you have actually looked where HE could be found.

 

[Ectezus]

What facts are these? That matter cannot be created, but it was? That life cannot originate from nothing, but it did? That adaptaion adds genetic information... but it doesn't? That the fossil record shows evolution, but it doesn't? The facts are that ALL theories of origination are impossible.

Mutations do not invent genetic information or lead to increased complexity.

Alright, your lack of scientific understanding is duly noted.

Jesus was seen by hundreds after His death.

Correction: it was written down in an old book that people have seen him.
I'll take it that you're not aware of many contradictions amongst the different bible books regarding his resurrection?

God isn't going to prove Hisself to you.

No argument there. I know I have to abandon logic and accept blind faith before I can see him. The whole point of the topic is that logic is a good thing, yet punished by god.

Funny, off all the times people like you have talked about finding God, none of you have actually looked where HE could be found.

And once again the old argument: "The evidence is right there, how can you not see it, you're so stupid!"

This topic is not about trying to convince me or anyone else. We are well aware that your blind acceptance of a magic man in the sky is enough for you. The point I want to address in this topic is that it's obviously not enough for many people.

I repeat:

There is a large group of people who want concrete evidence to make informed and educated decisions. It seems to me that god apparently doesn't want those people in Heaven.

- Ectezus

 

[Washington]

If the proclaimed god is truly a kind, compassionate, caring, and loving god he would want that large group of people in heaven. So there are two possibilities:

1. God IS NOT kind, compassionate, caring, and loving.

2, God IS kind, compassionate, caring, and loving, and the believers simply have it wrong.

 

[pgp_protector]

Let's see what the Bible says

Proverbs 6
16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.


Nope no Scientist, Knowledge Seekers, Learned People in that list.

 

[KWCrazy]

Alright, your lack of scientific understanding is duly noted.

Who are you? Do you know who I am? Do you know ANYTHING about me? I have yet to meet an evo who can muster an intelligent argument, primarily because I have yet to meet an intelligent evo. They all make stupid, ignorant statements like yours and pretend that those who disagree with them are ignorant or uneducated.

So, to be fair, I'm going to give you the same opportunity I've been giving people for five years. I stated that matter cannot be created, but it was. So before you go into red shift theory, super string theory or quantum theory let me reitterate to you that the first law of thermodynamics has never been superceded or invalidated. Neither has the Second LoT. That said, I will now allow you to demonstrate the scientific process by which matter was created from nothing. Since you obviously know something I don't know, let's see it.

After that, you can explain the process of abiogenesis and how likely it was to have happened. Forget panspermia, because the spreading of life does not explain the origination of life.

After you solve those two riddles, we can move on to more complex ones, such as why there is no biological exidence of evolutionary process. I'll let you start off with the easier ones first.

By the way. Failing to prove me to be the ignorant one, proves that it's you. Good luck!

 

[Ectezus]

Who are you? Do you know who I am? Do you know ANYTHING about me?

Not all that much since you only have a postcount of 15.
But I already do know that you make wild claims without proof and expect everyone else to come up with all the proof why YOU are wrong.

I will now allow you to demonstrate the scientific process by which matter was created from nothing.
[...]
After that, you can explain the process of abiogenesis and how likely it was to have happened.

Haha, you want me to explain Abiogenesis AND the origin of matter to you? Both of which scientists haven't fully answered yet? lol... Ok, I'll tell you what, if you want to discuss ANY of this, be my guest and make another topic about it. I'll see you there.

This topic however is about another subject.
Thank you for your opinion. Now stop derailing my thread. I'll respond to your topics if you make them (And I now expect you to)

- Ectezus

 

[CraigBaugher]

Wow... Ectezus your ignorance is clear...

Here is a link to a website that gives information about, or shows scientific evidence of modern miracles.
Scientific Evidence for Miracles Page 5 protestant miracles

There are numerous Christian scientist and doctors... It is obvious that some scientist love God, and I'm sure they are Heaven bound...

 

[Ectezus]

Here is a link to a website that gives information about, or shows scientific evidence of modern miracles.
Scientific Evidence for Miracles Page 5 protestant miracles

There are numerous Christian scientist and doctors... It is obvious that some scientist love God, and I'm sure they are Heaven bound...

Wow a religious website that lists 10 people! No sources and No links to a scientific research about it. But who cares about that right?

When people get an illness it's not gods fault yet when they are cured god deserves ALL the credit.
Also funny how the supposedly healed illnesses always happen to be practically invisible. It's never an amputee that's getting healed or anything. Now THAT would seriously convince a lot of people.
Guess god doesn't care about amputees.

And what about all the other people who did die from cancer where god refused to help them. Yes, that single case where one patient recovered from cancer 'obviously' is a miracle. CraigBaugher, I said before that miracles are all subjective and you've just proved my point.

Also you claim there are a few scientists that do believe in god. No argument there, there are always a few. This topic however talks about the vast majority of scientists, which are overwhelmingly Atheist.

I'm not sure what you tried to do here. Convince me with 10 personal testimonies without sources? Seriously? Didn't I make it clear enough already that this topic is NOT about convincing me or anyone else.
It's about how there will always be a large group of perfectly moral people who just need testable evidence in order to reach a good conclusion on whether the invisible man is really invisible or just non-existent.

Overwhelming majority of scientists are Atheists - FACT.
They want objective, observable, measurable, testable evidence before they will believe in god - FACT.
That objective, observable, measurable, testable evidence isn't there - FACT.

You can argue all you want that the evidence really is there, but according to the majority of scientists; it's NOT. Plain and simple. If there was testable evidence that allowed scientists to proof god it would be the biggest news ever. (Lets just hope it's not Allah that gets proven )

By punishing skepticism and the demand for wanting concrete evidence to make educated decisions god rewards gullibility.

- Ectezus

 

[HighwayMan]

"ZOMG, the fundamentalist-version of God doesn't seem so reasonable. Oh well, I guess this pretty much proves that all religion and versions of God are hogwash, I win!!!"

 

[ebia]

Here on Earth there is a group of people that value certain things like objectivity and testable evidence before they reach a conclusion.

Naieve positivism is, well, what it's name implies.

Most notably: the vast majority of scientists.

To them, and pretty much every non-believer there simply isn't enough testable evidence that justifies changing your whole life to what a really old book says you must do.

Nobody, including scientists, builds their fundamental worldview on objective testing of evidence.

So does god hate scientists?

No.

Or people in general who value facts over blind faith?

People who value facts over meaning have enough problems, without needing God to hate them.

You see, it's not that I want to be a monkey. There's no logical reason for me to really want that (unlike the idea of being created in the image of a god). But all testable evidence points towards Evolution, not Creation.

Evolution and creation are not at odds. Evolution and YEC are at odds.

Sure blind faith can overcome this, but not all people work that way as God should know when he supposedly created us. People who live a perfectly moral and healthy life, helping and respecting others, yet they get punished for having a different view on how to reach a good conclusion.

You're starting with the wrong story. The world has problems (suffering, death, ...). God has acted in the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth to deal with that and bring his saving rule to bear, putting creation right. To be included in that putting right involves your consent and getting involved. If you choose not to, for whatever reason, that's your choice.

Take miracles for example. Not a single scientific research showed that miracles are real. Once again, it's not because scientists don't want to believe miracles are possible, all the testable evidence simply points out in the other direction:

You misunderstand what a miracle is. A miracle is not "something that defies the laws of nature" nor "something science cannot explain". A miracle is "a wonderous thing". An event that inspires awe and speaks of the Kingdom of God. So the greatest miracle of our lifetime is probably the relatively peaceful fall of the apartheid system in South Africa, where the almost universally expected bloodbaths were avoided and a quite astonishing degree of reconcilliation has been possible lead by a small, unassuming, powerless, little black archbishop who spends the first three hours of every day on his knees in prayer.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You're starting with the wrong story. The world has problems (suffering, death, ...). God has acted in the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth to deal with that and bring his saving rule to bear, putting creation right. To be included in that putting right involves your consent and getting involved. If you choose not to, for whatever reason, that's your choice.

It would help if he made it clear that we do in fact have a choice, and what the options are, what the consequences are, and how we pick a particular choice.

There are hundreds of religions, some of which claim that their religion (and only their religion) is the way to salvation. If only God gave us some clue as to what to do! Instead, we have musty old tomes of dubious authorship and even more dubious veracity. New religions splinter from old ones before you have time to turn around.

And where's God in all this? Why aren't there flaming words in the sky proclaiming "I exist. Follow the Baptist General Convention of Texas and you'll be saved. Don't, and you won't. That is all"?

I also find it interesting that you say God's solution is to send Jesus in. Well, sorry, but the world's problems remain stubbornly unchanged, despite Jesus' alleged sacrifice.

You misunderstand what a miracle is. A miracle is not "something that defies the laws of nature" nor "something science cannot explain". A miracle is "a wonderous thing". An event that inspires awe and speaks of the Kingdom of God. So the greatest miracle of our lifetime is probably the relatively peaceful fall of the apartheid system in South Africa, where the almost universally expected bloodbaths were avoided and a quite astonishing degree of reconcilliation has been possible lead by a small, unassuming, powerless, little black archbishop who spends the first three hours of every day on his knees in prayer.

Yes, because that's on par with water-to-wine, calming of storms, raising of the dead, healing of the blind and infirm, bleeding statues, etc.

And why does the fall of South African apartheid "inspire awe and speak of the Kingdom of God"?

 

[Ectezus]

You misunderstand what a miracle is.

Fair enough.

A miracle is not "something that defies the laws of nature"

No breach in the laws of nature, check. That would make it too easy afterall.

nor "something science cannot explain".

Possible indeed, but so far it hasn't happened yet thus proving my original point.

A miracle is "a wonderous thing". An event that inspires awe and speaks of the Kingdom of God.

Uhu, go on...

So the greatest miracle of our lifetime is probably the relatively peaceful fall of the apartheid system in South Africa,

Say what now??

You can have your version of miracles. Basically everytime mankind does something good god gets the credit, and when mankind does something evil it's either sin, satan or god is on vacation to the Bahamas.

I appreciate your moderate view on the subject though. But since you've brought forward the changes in Africa to be a miracle, please answer the next question.

ebia, do you deny the existence of: (quote from Wiccan Child)

water-to-wine, calming of storms, raising of the dead, healing of the blind and infirm, bleeding statues, etc.

Because if not, you just made a post about how my view on miracles is completely wrong even though you knew darn well what I was talking about. Another lie for jezus?

- Ectezus

 

[Fin12]

Now normally I'm not a fan of Ectezus's posting manners.

But he is right, the theists here are dodging the question, it's not how come god isn't real?

The hidden question is

It's if god is real, why do so many people fail to recognise him, if the answer was so obvious why are their that many educated people who fail to recognise him when they try to objectively look for him.

Now before anyone pulls the "your not looking", I was and I nearly killed myself as a result of the depression I suffered as an aftermath of the sturggle to force belief.

I wanted to believe, I wanted it to become clear, I didn't want to go on half truths or a little website rambling about a miniscule and obscure miracle. I wanted god's light to be like the christians said it would.

BLASTING OUT THE DARKNESS AND ILLUMINATING THE TRUTH.

Point is their has not been any substantial testiable empirical evidence for god or for YEC, this does not neccessarily mean it didn't happen, but it means their are those who will have alot of trouble believing on those grounds.

That is the question, if people make their mind up in different ways, how is that fair on the empircally based people, seeing as they have very little to go on in comparison to someone who works with "faith"?

 

[Autumnleaf]

This really is a weak argument. If god has always been been there then so can matter. If god was created without the help of another god, then so can matter.

The whole point of the topic is that no testable evidence exists that points in the direction of god. For everything so far there has been a natural explanation where there is no need for a supernatural one.

Please, don't try to make any more points of "The evidence is right there, how can you not see it, you're so stupid!" This is not what the topic is about. The fact of the matter is there is no testable evidence. Not everyone looks at a tree and thinks "God's awesome!".
You only prove my point that god's evidence is subjective.

- Ectezus

Your argument is like saying the existence of a car does not prove man exists. It might be technically true but its an obtuse way of thinking.

 

[The Nihilist]

Your argument is like saying the existence of a car does not prove man exists. It might be technically true but its an obtuse way of thinking.

Except we know how cars are built. We're not really 100% how universes happen.

 

[Ectezus]

Your argument is like saying the existence of a car does not prove man exists. It might be technically true but its an obtuse way of thinking.

Congrats, you hit the nail on the head.

A car does not prove man exists. --> Everyone disagrees.
Matter does not prove god exists. --> Only Theists disagree.

The fact that you admit it might be technically true is all that matters really. If you argue that it's possible for god to have always been there then you must apply the same logic to matter as well.

- Ectezus