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according to your interpretation of scripture. Scripture actually has never stated that some were chosen before the foundations of the world.But according to scripture, the chosen have not done anything to merit favor with God, God by His will and sovereignty chose them to be saved before the foundation of the world. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross has infinite value, and can save everyone, but not everyone will be saved. Therefore the message the salvation is offered to everyone, but only the elect will respond and be saved.
Yeah, I was wrong about that. I clarified on my belief concerning this Scripture in post #32.Jpark,
It really does not help your view. From verse 13-19 is all about all being raised. NOthing is ever limited in the Resurrection.
No, it says Christ is the firstfruits.Verse 23 is just the order, those that died in Christ will be the first fruits of the resurrection. Then those that are still alive will be transformed at His coming.
But all men will arise at that moment. Rev 20:13 gives the same story.
Christ is the firstborn of the dead, not the elect or any other group.
As I said above, the life imbued onto the wicked will be different from the life imbued onto the righteous.There is a huge difference between verse 39 and 40. Verse 40 is an impossibility unless verse 39 occurs.
Meaning, every human being that died through the condemnation of Adam will be given life by Christ. Very simple to understand. Christ assumed our human nature in order to transform it from mortal to immortal. Which is why every single human being will be raised on the last day.
This is precisely what verse 39 is saying. The impersonal pronouns is actually refereing to our human natures which, none will be lost and will all be raised the last day.
Then why do we argue? I do not deny that those who genuinely believe and see Christ will have everlasting life.Then verse40, OF all HUMANKIND, all human beings, every single soul that ever lived, of those of verse 39 they that believe and see will have everlasting life with Him.
No, it means they will experience a kind of resurrection.Actually by purely word defintion, being made alive means precisely that all human beings will have an eternal life or existance. It's just that in most references the key or important matter is that it means to have an eternal existance, Life with Christ.
They will not be eternal.The rest will also have an eternal existance but they will be apart from God. It is called the Second death, or a spiritual separation.
Possibly.Obviously, you have totally misunderstood what I had stated as well as your understanding of scripture.
But it says those who are Christ's. That indicates distinction. 1 Cor. 15:22 does have something to do with believers.I Cor 15:22 has absolutely nothing to do with believers or a spiritual existance, or being IN Christ.
It has all to do with reversing the fall. Adam lost life, an eternal existance, the condemnation against him was death, man became mortal. Christ is the solution because He gives man life, immortality. You are again confusing what Christ accomplished on the Cross as our Incarnate Savior, from our relationship with Him which is our personal, individual salvation through faith.
It's possible that it is a misunderstanding, that I have misinterpreted your theology. It is because you failed to note the distinction between the kinds of resurrection.I wholeheartedly agree with you. But you have failed to understand that what I am explaining and what scripture is saying has nothing to do with Universalism.
Choice is given to all in varying degrees and measure of time. You mean I cannot have a choice in coming to Christ.You cannot have choice, unless Christ reverses the fall first. It is why He was needed.
God could not have a relationship with any man as long as man was dead, mortal. What good would it do God to simply have some earthly relationship with man and man would die and cease to exist after that mortal death?
That is not what it is saying.In other words, If man does not recieve life, then there can be no relationship spiritually either. This is what I Cor 15:19 is saying. If the dead are not raised, then our faith is vain. If you don't have an eternal existance, all the faith in the world is not going to do you any good.
While I typically am vehemently opposed to universalism, that interpretation just might be valid.I've shared this before but it seems few listen, and even fewer ever change their opinion after hearing. The word called isn't defined as some sort of beckoning cry for people to accept Jesus as their savior, it is a word of declaration that they already have accepted. And the word chosen is not referencing something that is up to God, but rather it is referencing those of us 'who made of ourselves to be chosen vessels or "vessels of honor"' (2Tim 2:21). We choose that by the obedience that comes from being led of the Sspirit (Sspirit = The Holy Spirit and/or our holy 'born again' spirit...which are one)
MAT 22:14 For many are called/kletos, but few are chosen/eklektos.
2822 kletos: invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint
1588 eklektos: select; by impl. favorite
This verse could more correctly be translated as
For many are Christians, but few are favored (because of their obedience)
I thought that was a given. Christ was the first to rise from the dead. Thus all others are those that follow.No, it says Christ is the firstfruits.
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
Rev. 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--
Those that are still alive (1 Thess. 4:15, 17) refers to those who are Christ's.
Originally Posted by Rightglory
But all men will arise at that moment. Rev 20:13 gives the same story
Christ is the firstborn of the dead, not the elect or any other group.
your response....
Why the distinction?
after that those who are Christ's
at His coming,
Matt. 25:46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Clearly, Christ is the firstborn of the elect. The dead who are classified as the wicked will not enjoy the same kind of resurrection He experienced.
As I said above, the life imbued onto the wicked will be different from the life imbued onto the righteous
No, it means they will experience a kind of resurrection.
They will not be eternal.
They will not even share in God's immortality.
They will not put on immortality.
But it says those who are Christ's.That indicates distinction.
only because they are part of humanity. But the verse does not make any distinctions whatsoever. It compares the First Adam, with the Second Adam. It compares the fall, all die due to Adams Condemnation to death, and all will be raised by Christ.1 Cor. 15:22 does have something to do with believers.
If Christ was NOT Incarnate, did not assume our human natures to raise them to life, Yes, it would be worthless for you to have a choice. What good is a choice to a dead mortal being. YOu would simply die and cease to exist if Christ did not reverse the fall. This is exactly what I Cor 15:13-19 is stating.Originally Posted by Rightglory
You cannot have choice, unless Christ reverses the fall first. It is why He was needed.
God could not have a relationship with any man as long as man was dead, mortal. What good would it do God to simply have some earthly relationship with man and man would die and cease to exist after that mortal death?
Your response....
Choice is given to all in varying degrees and measure of time. You mean I cannot have a choice in coming to Christ.
is precisely what it is saying. Faith is worthless, you would still be under the condemnation of Adam, you would still die a mortal death and it would be final. There is no eternal existance without Christ being raised.Originally Posted by Rightglory
In other words, If man does not recieve life, then there can be no relationship spiritually either. This is what I Cor 15:19 is saying. If the dead are not raised, then our faith is vain. If you don't have an eternal existance, all the faith in the world is not going to do you any good.
Your response....
That is not what it is saying.
1 Cor. 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
NO, it is not about you. It is about God. The condemnation of death through Adam negated the whole purpose of God creating human beings. God could no longer have an eternal relatioship with a Creature whose purpose was just that.Your faith is worthless (our faith is vain) = still in your sins
We do not follow God because we need an eternal existence to have a relationship with God.
We follow God because we have hope in Him, that He can deliver us from sin, whether in this life or life after death.
Mikey, I've read enough of you to know you have some knowledge of Greek which I don't claim to have, and I respect that. But what is your reference to refute Strong's definition of "Kletos" as "Saints"?Well, "kletos" is more closely connected to "summoned" -- essentially you're being ordered up. eklektos is picked, or chosen.
So the distinction made is between people being summoned to Christ -- the gospel is indeed a summons to response -- and those who are chosen for this favor.
You still sin though, am I not correct?Christ has already delievered you from the bondage to death and sin. We follow Christ because we desire to have a relationship with Him as He does with us, now and for an eternity.
You still sin though, am I not correct?
But that is what the choice is all about. Sin is actually a test of our faith, of our being faithful to His commandments. To deny oneself and to follow Him. He is not delivering you from sin outside of your choice. A choice not to be a slave to sin any longer.We look to God so He can deliver us from sin and from a life of sin and from living a life of sin in this life.
I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here. The statements above is speaking of Christ's work on the Cross and His resurrection. If Christ is not raised, or resurrected, then we are still under the condemnation of Adam and still in bondage to death and sin. That is all that it means.1 Cor. 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
your faith is worthless = you are still in your sins
and if Christ has not been raised, you are still in your sins.
The born again state brings enablement (1 Peter 1:22-23) as well as Jesus' intervention (1 John 5:18). We just haven't see it because very few people know about it.
Not really. It is the very same resurrection. But when the Bible uses the term,"eternal life" is is generally refering to being with Christ in eternity. That is the life, the eternal life in John 5:29 is a spiritual life. The resurrection unto judgement is assigning the second death, or spiritual separation to those that have rejected Christ.As for the resurrection,
John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
There is distinction.
Nope, not the same resurrection. It did not say resurrection to life and resurrection to judgment. It said resurrection of life and resurrection of judgment. There is only one resurrection of life.Not really. It is the very same resurrection. But when the Bible uses the term,"eternal life" is is generally refering to being with Christ in eternity. That is the life, the eternal life in John 5:29 is a spiritual life. The resurrection unto judgement is assigning the second death, or spiritual separation to those that have rejected Christ.
However, the resurrection, that is the event of man being raised is precisely the same for everyone. There is no distinction. We are all human beings. We shall all be raised in a twinkling of an eye. It is a physical life. A physical eternal existance.
Nope, not the same resurrection. It did not say resurrection to life and resurrection to judgment. It said resurrection of life and resurrection of judgment. There is only one resurrection of life.
I John 1:2 is not about spiritual life, It is refering to Christ's physical existance. His Incarnation and resurrection.Eternal life = with Jesus (1 John 1:2, 1 John 5:11 this life is in His Son, John 15).
Without Jesus = no eternal life (John 15:6)
Thus, the resurrection that the wicked will experience cannot be the same resurrection.
Or are the wicked the connected branches?
John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
John 15:6 indicates that the wicked are the cut off branches.
I don't see how you came to that conclusion.If you are correct, then Christ was not Incarnated. If you are correct, then Christ did not rise from the dead.
A special physical body.Furthermore, if you are correct, then what form of human being are those that have this resurrection of judgement?
Concerning the first, can I have the reference in which I indicated so?If you believe as you are at present, then you have some other monsterous theological problems to overcome.
First, you have man being created and existing in two distinct forms.
Secondly, the fall is limited to only some humans, those that need life because they were condemned through Adam.
Christ was not Incarnated, that is assumed our human natues since you have posited that there are at least two different forms of human nature, or at least, only Incarnated the form that needed life, those condemned through Adam.
And then for my edification, who exists in hell? What kind of human being have you made him?
Originally Posted by Rightglory
If you are correct, then Christ was not Incarnated. If you are correct, then Christ did not rise from the dead.
Your response.....
I don't see how you came to that conclusion.
and where in scripture is this special body described? How was this special body created in the first place? And can we tell which is which as we exist in this world. and again, how is he actually resurrected? Did he lose something different in the fall than other human beings. In other words, what is your connection to the fall, the purpose of Christ, and the effective salvation He gave to man.Originally Posted by Rightglory
Furthermore, if you are correct, then what form of human being are those that have this resurrection of judgement?
Your response....
A special physical body.
You indicated before and in this post already that there are two distinct kinds of resurrections. One for believers and one for unbelievers. By theological defintion of the Incarnation of Christ that means two different human natues exist. Unless you also posit that Christ assumed two distinct kinds of human natures so that by assuming each, He can raise each at the resurrection because He rose from the dead with those human natures.Concerning the first, can I have the reference in which I indicated so?
here you are actually contradicting yourself. This is exactly what scripture is saying. All shall be raised by Christ because all fell, died due to Adam. There is no distinction here that you made relative to a resurrection for beleivers and another for the unjust. That there are two resurrections.Concerning the second,
1 Cor. 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die [everyone dies], so also in Christ all will be made alive [everyone will be resurrected]. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits [Christ was the first to be resurrected], after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
First, Yes, everyone because we are all human beings of the same essence, the same essence that Christ assumed in His Incarnation. He rasied our mortal bodies to immortal ones. Now that happens in the eschotan, but that was the purpose of Christ coming to give life to the world, not just mankind. Man lost life, an eternal existance.Verse 22 merely says that everyone will experience a resurrection. It does not clarify, specify concerning the kind of resurrection.
Verse 23 does not mention the wicked.
The resurrection is the same event for all of humanity, but there will be a difference as to result of that resurrection. Some will be with Christ, the others will be apart from Christ.Or all people will be Christ's at His coming and there will be no opposition (2 Thess. 1:7-9).
I hope I already have in this post, but if you need more explanation I will do so.Christ was not Incarnated, that is assumed our human natues since you have posited that there are at least two different forms of human nature, or at least, only Incarnated the form that needed life, those condemned through Adam.
Your response....
Concerning the third, can you clarify?
You have already given part of your answer in your response above. "A special body". But why the need for a special body?And then for my edification, who exists in hell? What kind of human being have you made him?
Your response...
And concerning the fourth, what do you mean by that?
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