Does God call and then give us a choice to respond to his call?

Hammster said:

Talk about a weird auto-correct. And poor editing.

People aren't condemned because the don't choose God.

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ooh lol

Why are they condemend? Because of their sin? But, they can't help but sin because they are dead in their sin, they can't choose God because they are dead. God must call them. So what I'm saying is, how can God allow them to go to hell when all He has to do is call them and then they will be made alive in Him and they will forsake their sin and live for Him?

CoconutPrincess said:

ooh lol

Why are they condemend? Because of their sin? But, they can't help but sin because they are dead in their sin, they can't choose God because they are dead. God must call them. So what I'm saying is, how can God allow them to go to hell when all He has to do is call them and then they will be made alive in Him and they will forsake their sin and live for Him?

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Why is God obligated to save someone who hates Him, who doesn't want anything to do with Him? He isn't. And God sends people to Hell because that's what they deserve.

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Hammster said:

Why is God obligated to save someone who hates Him, who doesn't want anything to do with Him? He isn't. And God sends people to Hell because that's what they deserve.

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He isn't obligated, but what I'm saying is, why doesn't He have mercy on everyone? The reason they hate Him is because He hasn't chose them to love Him. If He'd just choose them to love Him, they would, but they can't, they are unable to unless He makes them.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

They refused because they couldn't not refuse to love the truth unless God made them. How is it just to allow them to perish for this reason?

Me too!

CoconutPrincess said:

He isn't obligated, but what I'm saying is, why doesn't He have mercy on everyone? The reason they hate Him is because He hasn't chose them to love Him. If He'd just choose them to love Him, they would, but they can't, they are unable to unless He makes them.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

They refused because they couldn't not refuse to love the truth unless God made them. How is it just to allow them to perish for this reason?

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So you agree that God isn't obligated to save anyone, but you want to know why? Is that what you're inquiring about?

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Hammster said:

So you agree that God isn't obligated to save anyone, but you want to know why? Is that what you're inquiring about?

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I'd like to know explanation on the verse I just quoted as well as, if God isn't obligated to save us, but sent Christ to save us because He is love and He loved the world, then why did He not save us all?

The scripture says the refused to love the truth, but if God had intervened, they would have loved the truth. They can't help themselves, they sin because they are dead. How then can He save only some and then condemn the others for only doing what He left them to do because He didn't step in?

It's like if I want my daughter to be able to complete a task she is totally incapable of doing unless I help her, but I refuse to help her and punish her because she doesn't do the task I want her to do. If I'd just help her, then she would be able to do it. How is that just?

CoconutPrincess said:

I'd like to know explanation on the verse I just quoted as well as, if God isn't obligated to save us, but sent Christ to save us because He is love and He loved the world, then why did He not save us all?

The scripture says the refused to love the truth, but if God had intervened, they would have loved the truth. They can't help themselves, they sin because they are dead. How then can He save only some and then condemn the others for only doing what He left them to do because He didn't step in?

It's like if I want my daughter to be able to complete a task she is totally incapable of doing unless I help her, but I refuse to help her and punish her because she doesn't do the task I want her to do. If I'd just help her, then she would be able to do it. How is that just?

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I'm not sure that I can answer why God doesn't save everyone. but since He isn't under obligation to save even one, then if He chooses to save any it is because of His mercy. Mercy, by definition, is non-obligitory.

"and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.". The verse says that they refused to love the truth. you seem to indicate that it says that they couldn't love the truth. I'm going with the text.

Basically, it comes down to people not wanting to believe. they could if they chose to, but they won't because of the wickedness of their heart. The only way someone will believe is with a new heart. and that's what being born again is about.

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Hammster said:

You seem to indicate that it says that they couldn't love the truth.

Basically, it comes down to people not wanting to believe. they could if they chose to, but they won't because of the wickedness of their heart. The only way someone will believe is with a new heart. and that's what being born again is about.

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Exactly my point. They refused because they couldn't.

And again, "they could if they chose to", but they can't choose to, as you say, because of the wickedness of their heart.

So we're full circle again... like the analogy of my daughter... how can God allow them to go to hell if they can't do what He wants them to do unless He helps them?

CoconutPrincess said:

Exactly my point. They refused because they couldn't.

And again, "they could if they chose to", but they can't choose to, as you say, because of the wickedness of their heart.

So we're full circle again... like the analogy of my daughter... how can God allow them to go to hell if they can't do what He wants them to do unless He helps them?

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I keep saying "won't believe", and you've read that as "can't believe". There is a difference.

Plus, you keep using terms of obligation. But the questions why should Hod save any of us?

Also, your daughter analogy falls short. God never requires anything of His children that Christ hasn't accomplished, or that He doesn't enable us to accomplish.

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I have not yet gone through all the posts, so my answer is only how I see it and not saying anyone is right or wrong. But I think God... I know God is all knowing. He knows a persons true heart and knows if a person would accept him and love him with his/her everything, or if he/she would never fully love Jesus more than their sinful ways. You would not fix something that is broken beyond repair, so why would God go out of his way to save someone that can never be saved. The bible says we must Love Jesus more than anyone or anything. God created us with free will, able to choose what we hold closest to us. If someone will never love Jesus more than money for example, than that person would never be saved. I know I can fall into sin, but if satan ever said to me "all the riches in the world are yours if you love them more than Christ" then I will go on being a penny pincher. But someone else in their greed may think "I will take it then ask Jesus to forgive me" That is using God, that is the mind of an unsaved person. I have found in my life things happened that I could not understand why God would let them happen, but latter I found that it was for the best. God knows the outcome of every situation, he knows if we did "this" what would happen and if we did "that" what would happen. Faith is all part of being saved. So many things in the bible I can not grasp in my mind, like Noah's ark. But I don't really try to, I don't need to, I only need to accept it happened because the bible said it did. But an unsaved person would think it is just a story to prove some kind of point and it never really happened. That is not having faith, and unless you have child like faith you will never enter heaven. (tell a child the sky is green and they will make a picture with a green sky) God knows who is who, there is no need to make someone something they are not, that is not free will. You would not try to teach a dog to fly like it is a bird because it will never happen right? with an un-true Christian even showing them the truth they still do not listen and only hear what they want to hear and only do what they want to do. it is not how God made them to be, it is their free will choosing who what they want to be.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

If God looked at our "true" heart to determine who would be saved, then nine would be saved.

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RobertZ said:

Wont believe or cant believe....... whatever it may be God doesnt step in and prevent them from going to Hell according to calvinism, i believe that is the point she is trying to make.

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And why should God step in?

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RobertZ said:

That passage simply implies that WE humans cannot know or understand our own hearts but their is one greater than us who does know our hearts, GOD.

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No, it says the heart is desperately sick.

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RobertZ said:

Come on bro, all we do is go around and around in circles with this while seeming to avoid the man question at hand.

Either the non elect goes to hell because God skipped over them or they go to hell because in their free will they chose not to heed the call of God. It is one or the other and it cannot be both.

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They chose not to heed the call. Have I said different?

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The call of god doesn't necessarily happen, its not like a feeling you get when he calls, there is no ring, no mail, no ring tone, If there is a CALL, i think its something you just know you have to do .

Like a criminal who decides Jail isent tha ticket, and he changes his life... that was the call