Does Free Will Exist?

[Wiccan_Child]

The unregenrates are those that stay in the beliefs they were born with. They remain in that state for the rest of their lives. The goats are frequently used as a symbolic to people that are being sent to hell by the Lord, Himself, they never believed in.

Why would God actively send unregenerates to Hell? If they were born that way, if the culture and religion they grew up in was the 'wrong' religion, how is it their fault? It seems awfully unfair for someone to be sent to eternal punishment for something they had little to no control over.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

What's an 'unregenerate'? What do goats have to do with anything?

My post pointed out that your response to Ken only works if Ken believes in God, which he obviously doesn't. Given that, I have absolutely no idea what relevance your post has to either mine or Ken's.

Your posts verge on those of trolls - you don't contribute to the topic at hand, your posts are unrelated to those quoted, you use insulting and derogatory language where none is necessary, etc. I've talked to Christians before, and none of them sought to besmirch the name of Christ by acting with such arrogance and self-righteousness.

So much for humility being a virtue, eh...

I'll recheck my intentions. Trolling is a very large and broad word. I am being counseled by the moderators and working on not offending anyone. Mostly, I speak in Calvinism or talk like Johnathon Edwards. Even Johnathan was booted out of towns of self lovers and the Native Indians loved him but they didn't speak English. I would like to stay here cause everyone speaks English here. Most don't like moderned interpretation of the Bible so I'll do my best not to be trollish. I'm still going to assume that this is a Christian Forum for Christians. After all, that's what it said in the title.

I'm, also, going to assume that the athiest don't believe in God so I'm going to talk to them like they don't. Perhaps I'm in the Atheist section of the forum and don't know it.

We can talk science and claim that nothing physical can be faster than light but Tachyon is much faster than ligh be we have a difficult time describing Tachyon. God is much faster than Tachyon and is at all places at all time. How are you and I going to disscuss the meaning of the past, present and the future happening all at the same time.

Perhaps time was created so everything wouldn't happen at the same time. What I said in this topic has a lot to do with who I'm talking to.

I'll accept that you don't agree with that.

Being called trollish is offensive to me but it may be my fault I sound that way. Not my intention to do so.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I'll recheck my intentions. Trolling is a very large and broad word. I am being counseled by the moderators and working on not offending anyone. Mostly, I speak in Calvinism or talk like Johnathon Edwards. Even Johnathan was booted out of towns of self lovers and the Native Indians loved him but they didn't speak English. I would like to stay here cause everyone speaks English here. Most don't like moderned interpretation of the Bible so I'll do my best not to be trollish. I'm still going to assume that this is a Christian Forum for Christians. After all, that's what it said in the title.

I'm, also, going to assume that the athiest don't believe in God so I'm going to talk to them like they don't. Perhaps I'm in the Atheist section of the forum and don't know it.

Obviously this place is catered towards Christians, hence the rules that specifically protect those of that religion and not others (you can, for instance, insinuate a Buddhist isn't really a Buddhist, but you can't insinuate a Christian isn't really a Christian), but there are still non-Christians here, myself included.

You can obviously talk from whatever premise you like, including the premise that God exists (one I daresay you believe is in fact true), but you won't get very far by taking that approach with non-Christians - if you start from the premise 'God exists, therefore...', the atheist, who rejects that premise, is going to automatically reject any conclusion that rests upon it.

So it's just a piece of friendly advice. If you want to contribute to a discussion that is primarily populated by atheists, insulting them is the wrong way to go about it. If your goal is to debate a topic with an atheist, it doesn't help to base your entire argument on something they don't believe in - imagine if a Buddhist tried to convince you of something, but their whole argument rested on enlightenment and Nirvana. You would reject their conclusion out of hand, no?

But that's all irrelevant to the topic at hand.

We can talk science and claim that nothing physical can be faster than light but Tachyon is much faster than ligh be we have a difficult time describing Tachyon. God is much faster than Tachyon and is at all places at all time. How are you and I going to disscuss the meaning of the past, present and the future happening all at the same time.

Perhaps time was created so everything wouldn't happen at the same time. What I said in this topic has a lot to do with who I'm talking to.

I'll accept that you don't agree with that.

A 'tachyon' is a general name for any particle that travels faster than c, and they propagate 'backwards' through time; there's no evidence that any such particles exist. That said, I'm not sure what they have to do with the concept of free will.

Being called trollish is offensive to me but it may be my fault I sound that way. Not my intention to do so.

If you genuinely didn't mean to be a troll, then I apologise for insinuating as such.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

The Presbyteer (quote)” The unregenrates are those that stay in the beliefs they were born with. They remain in that state for the rest of their lives.”

(reply) Humm… So would you agree that most Christians are "unregenerates"? Are YOU an unregenerate?

Ken

If you question that, then you're thinking.

Here's a tip: The unregenerates are not Christians and never effectively called by the Lord, even though they may have heard the general call. The general calls and the effectual calls are the same. Only the Elects have been effectually called. Those that are effectively called are the ones that received the Gift of Faith. Not all receives the gift of Faith. That gift are only given to those that God give to according to His ~own~ pleasure, not man's. The Christians are the regenerated or saved. The Christians are believers. All believers are the Elects The unbelievers are not Christians.

Your question is self explanatory and is a little silly to ask.

I often ask myself if I'm the Elect. Only my example shows that. That's all I have to go on. I'm not into meism. It ain't about me, It's about Jesus.
Here, I'm just proclaiming the Bible like John Calvin did. I'm just proclaiming. It would be impossible for me to convince you to accept something that ~ALL~ of mankind can't accept. You won't ever hear me talk you into easy-decisionism like the arminians do. Proclaiming the Bible is a huge difference than convincing or talking someone into something all men are incapable of doing.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

----If you genuinely didn't mean to be a troll, then I apologise for insinuating as such.

I still know that all men born are atheist.

There isn't any difference between a weak atheist and an agnostic. ___Thats silly !

All men are born incapable in believing God.

God called and N-O-N-E answered !

That ain't trolling.

That's the Gospel.

The Gospel belongs in this forum.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

--- That said, I'm not sure what they have to do with the concept of free will.---

What's "Free Will" to God that is in the past, present and the future at the same time.

Free Will is a goofy concept.

Who in the world invented that vocabulary?

 

[ThePresbyteers]

Why would God actively send unregenerates to Hell? ---

They send themselves to hell. All of mankind were on the express bus to Hell.

None of us deserves to go to heaven.

Why should He save any? He doesn't have to. Eve just liked the tasty apple. It was good to her. Poor Adam had to find a fig leaf to cover his private part. He felt naked on after the hot apple pie. That nakedness is sin, the Great Grand Disobedience. That's OUR fault ! Not God's

Those with the Gift of Faith will understand the meaning of Grace. It is Grace that God selects His own children when He didn't have to. This is what the Christians praises and thankful.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

--- If they were born that way, if the culture and religion they grew up in was the 'wrong' religion, how is it their fault? ---

Christianity isn't a religion.

It's the Gospel.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I still know that all men born are atheist.

There isn't any difference between a weak atheist and an agnostic. ___Thats silly !

All men are born incapable in believing God.

God called and N-O-N-E answered !

That ain't trolling.

That's the Gospel.

The Gospel belongs in this forum.

I don't doubt, but spouting scripture for the sake of it just turns you into a laughing stock - it certainly doesn't convert people.

What's "Free Will" to God that is in the past, present and the future at the same time.

It is the thing that allows humans make choices and to be moral agents. God may know what we will choose, but the choice is still ours.

Free Will is a goofy concept.

Who in the world invented that vocabulary?

Free will has an enormous history in philosophy and religion. It's older than dirt.

They send themselves to hell. All of mankind were on the express bus to Hell.

That's different to what you said earlier, but more in line with standard Christian theology.

None of us deserves to go to heaven.

Why should He save any? He doesn't have to. Eve just liked the tasty apple. It was good to her. Poor Adam had to find a fig leaf to cover his private part. He felt naked on after the hot apple pie. That nakedness is sin, the Great Grand Disobedience. That's OUR fault ! Not God's

Actually, it's Adam and Eve's fault. What they did shouldn't reflect on us - why should I be punished for something someone else did?

Those with the Gift of Faith will understand the meaning of Grace. It is Grace that God selects His own children when He didn't have to. This is what the Christians praises and thankful.

In other words, God saves us even though we don't deserve it, even though he doesn't have to. Right?

Christianity isn't a religion.

It's the Gospel.

It's a religion based around the Gospel. Why is it that modern Christians are so repulsed by the word 'religion'? Christianity has rites and rituals, deities and divine mysteries, salvation and damnation, and, crucially, the concept of a soul or spirit that persists after death - that is the definition of religion. And, if Christianity is a religion, so what?

 

[HAPMinistries]

Do you think free will exists?
If yes, how does it exist if cause and effect determines everything?
If you do not think cause and effect determines everything, then give an example.

Yes
We choose between different cause and effects. It is this decision that is our free will to decide.

Example:
I can see $ in a open area that I know I could pick up, put in my pocket, and no one would know the wiser.

Cause and Effect #1, the increase of wealth would be beneficial and help increase the quality of my life.

Cause and Effect #2, the person who is missing the money could be seriously needing it for an emergency situation, just stand by and wait for the owner to return..

Cause and Effect #3, the belief in a God that would punish a thief, that it would be an act of stealing if I took it and kept it for myself, which would be a sin on my soul.

Cause and Effect #4, picking up the money, and trying to find the owner, in search.

etc...

What we decide as the best decision, we do. The cause and effects of life are under our power to choose, or to choose to do nothing at all. This is our free will to do whatever we choose to do.

 

[jonmichael818]

I don’t know. There is much about the human brain that I don’t know. Do you?

K

Based on that statement alone how can you say that free will exists?

I know a bit of how the brain works, and from what I do know, an argument for determinism is pretty strong.

 

[jonmichael818]

Yes
We choose between different cause and effects. It is this decision that is our free will to decide.

How does "this decision" come about?

 

[Ken-1122]

Presbyteer defines unregenrates :
” The unregenrates are those that stay in the beliefs they were born with. They remain in that state for the rest of their lives.””

So I ask; (quote)” Are YOU an unregenerate?”

Presbyteer replies (quote)”Here's a tip: The unregenerates are not Christians and never effectively called by the Lord, even though they may have heard the general call”

Ken(reply) So let me see if I’ve got this straight: an unregenerate (a word apparently used as an insult) is a person who sticks to their beliefs like you, and totally embrace the religion they were born with… like you, but is everybody else; just not you? Humm..... How convenient.

Kinda reminds me of when I was in 3rd grade and my teacher said when I point my finger at somebody else, that I’ve got 3 of my other fingers pointing at me!

Next when I said: “don’t know. There is much about the human brain that I don’t know”

Jonmichael said: (quote)” Based on that statement alone how can you say that free will exists?”

(reply) Because I know the definition of free will, (free and independent choice) and I know I am capable of making such a choice

Ken

 

[ThePresbyteers]

How does "this decision" come about?

That decision comes about as soon as you think of it. It comes somewhere along the line between the end result and the source of your thought. Arminians make a extreme late decision somewhere half way and at the same time they claim to be the originator of the thought process and decision making. If they were quicker, then they will never be in accidents.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

---So I ask; (quote)” Are YOU an unregenerate?”----

Ha ha ha.
That's between Jesus and I.
Whats the meaning of personal relationships?

 

[jonmichael818]

Because I know the definition of free will, (free and independent choice)

The fact that you know the definition of free will does not mean it exists.

and I know I am capable of making such a choice

Ken

I do not doubt that choices can be made, but the question is whether those choices are a result of "free will" or are results of cause and effect.

You say that choices are the result of how the brain works right? But we understand that the brain works through processes of cause and effect.
Our choices come from our genetic makeup and our environment, "nature and nurture."

The making of a choice does not violate causality.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

---Ken(reply) So let me see if I’ve got this straight: an unregenerate (a word apparently used as an insult) is a person who sticks to their beliefs like you, and totally embrace the religion they were born with… like you, but is everybody else; just not you? Humm..... How convenient. ---

It's not about me so don't worry about me.

The unregenerate means that you can relate to nothing but what your senses connect you with. It takes the ministry of the Holy Spirit to connect you with a greater world of reality that is in the promise of God. That is why the natural man doesn't receive the things that are of the Spirit of God. They are not spiritually discerned. You must have a spiritual discernment and the unregenerate person doesn't have that - he's sensual. Oh, he can relate to touch, taste, smell, all of these things - but he cannot connect with God.

Regenerates are also borne. Predestination comes before birth.

[SIZE=+1]We must be very careful to differentiate being Elect from being saved.

Those saved are all Elect.
But those Elect might not be saved yet.[/SIZE]

 

[jonmichael818]

That decision comes about as soon as you think of it.

What made you think of it?

 

[ThePresbyteers]

---Free will has an enormous history in philosophy and religion. It's older than dirt.---

I never said anyone doesn't have free will to chose according to their own desires. You have total control to your own desires.
I'm referring to the free will to chose, on their own, the spiritual things of God. That was taken away from us since Adam and Eve.

It called SIN

 

[ThePresbyteers]

What made you think of it?

When I saw the light bulb above my head.


Ding !