Does Free Will Exist?

[jonmichael818]

These experiments are laughable. They don't consider the time delay for a neural impulse to travel from the brain to the finger. It's also very subjective as to when the person actually "knew" when they were going to make the decision, as opposed to the moment when they had declared such knowledge.

I thought that was the point?
Again, the awareness of the individual of certain neurological or subconscious activities is not necessary to satisfy determinism.

 

[awakened777]

I believe there's free will to an extent.

 

[jonmichael818]

How do you know what signals are responsible for which brain activities?

Experimentation and observation.
Put the patients in the fMRI machine, tell them to think about moving a finger. If in every instance a particular part of the brain fires up, then it is reasonable to conclude that it is that part of the brain that controls motor functioning of the finger, and so on.

 

[jonmichael818]

Of course there are different ideas, that is pretty much undeniable. And it bears to differentiate between them, lest you fall for equivocation or bait and switch routines.

Let me see if you agree with thissorry for the crudeness of this example)

Compatibilism is to Determinism as a rainbow trout is to a fish?

Meaning that while a rainbow trout can be reduced to a fish, it still holds certain qualities that make it a specific kind of fish.

 

[jonmichael818]

I think we're at an impass caused by differences in philosophy. You assume that everything in my consciousness, in other words everything that constitutes myself, is determined by genetics and environment. I on the other hand do not believe this to be the case. For starters, I've already mentioned my ability to make different choices in the same circumstances. My genes are the same from the moment my mom's egg met by dad's sperm up to my death. My environment doesn't vary all that much. In the life of an ordinary math teacher, one school day is more or less like the next. Yet my choices on a given day are often vastly different. Moreoever, I can experience the fact that different choices don't arise from different, prior mental states. I always wake up in the morning feeling the same way: groggy, tired, and a little bit achy. Yet even so, I can make vastly different decisions right off the bat.

Your envirinmental factors do not have to vary in any significant way. Your thoughts can lead to a conclusion to give you an outcome in one moment, and in the next your thoughts can lead to a completely different outcome. It is still a sequence of thoughts that led you to produce an outcome. It is still cause and effect.

To answer that rigorously, we'd first have to know exactly what genetic and environmental factors influence my thinking. And that would be difficult. Because, believe it or not, scientists have not yet found any gene that has any effect on human thinking. There have been a lot of large, thorough scientific studies trying to locate such genes, but in all cases there are no results consistent enough to be sure of the fact.

I do not know about whether or not a gene has been found, but I do know that there are studies that suggest where volition takes place in the brain.

Similarly there are attempts to explain human thinking based on chemical influences such as serotonin, adrenaline, epronepron, and so forth. However in recent years those theories have been put on shaky ground by scientific studies.

I am not disputing this, though I have my doubts. Could you show me these studies you are referring to?

However, I can say this much, that in some cases where I feel the (alleged) adrenaline rush and desire to run around or jump or doing something else physical, I'm still able to stand still. In cases when my (alleged) low serotonin levels make me want to lie down and mope for a while, I'm still able to get up and run and jump. And so forth.

Of course you are still able to stand or get up, but those choices were made for reasons. Cause and effect.

As for the experiment in the video, it's worth noting that Dr. Benjamin Libert of UCSF, the first neurologist to perform that experiment, specifically said that the results did not rule out free will.

That is his interpretation. But as you say, you are just pointing it out

 

[Rex Lex]

Some people have to believe that there is such a thing as free will, but I choose not to believe it.

How convenient to avoid responsibility.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

How convenient to avoid responsibility.

Yes, because Gracchus goes around raping and killing...

 

[sandwiches]

How convenient to avoid responsibility.

So, you think responsibility cannot be assigned without free will?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Let me see if you agree with thissorry for the crudeness of this example)

Compatibilism is to Determinism as a rainbow trout is to a fish?

Meaning that while a rainbow trout can be reduced to a fish, it still holds certain qualities that make it a specific kind of fish.

Sounds about correct.

 

[quatona]

So, you think responsibility cannot be assigned without free will?

The worst part is that the joke flew right over his head.

 

[quatona]

Compatibilism is to Determinism as a rainbow trout is to a fish?

Even more puzzling:
FreeWill (compatibilism style) is to FreeWill (philosophy/religion style) as a baseball fan is to the fan in your computer.
(actually: "...to the fan in your computer keyboard").

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Even more puzzling:
FreeWill (compatibilism style) is to FreeWill (philosophy/religion style) as a baseball fan is to the fan in your computer.
(actually: "...to the fan in your computer keyboard").

It is more like: Compatibilist FW is to Libertarian FW as a cup of tea is to a magic potion.

 

[sandwiches]

The worst part is that the joke flew right over his head.

It's pretty uncanny.

One of the things that I find funny is when people say things like "Well, how convenient!" about thing that are mere facts.

"Avoiding too much sunlight reduces the chance of getting skin cancer? How convenient!"

"You're not hungry because you ate a sandwich? How convenient!"

"The new supermarket was built closer to your house than mine? How convenient!"

Like being sarcastic about reality somehow negates or changes it.

 

[UnReAL13]

It is more like: Compatibilist FW is to Libertarian FW as a cup of tea is to a magic potion.

Yep. This analogy hits the nail on the head with a sledgehammer.

Libertarianism is equally as preposterous as Determinism. Some might view this dichotomy in the same fashion that they view Strong Theism vs Strong Atheism. Or even Gnostic Theism vs Gnostic Atheism.

 

[sandwiches]

Yep. This analogy hits the nail on the head with a sledgehammer.

Libertarianism is equally as preposterous as Determinism. Some might view this dichotomy in the same fashion that they view Strong Theism vs Strong Atheism. Or even Gnostic Theism vs Gnostic Atheism.

Bleh... Even compatibilism ultimately accepts deterministic causes for all actions.

 

[Gracchus]

Some people have to believe that there is such a thing as free will, but I choose not to believe it.

How convenient to avoid responsibility.

The worst part is that the joke flew right over his head.

Such things are inevitable when you are short in some departments. He can't help it.

 

[UnReAL13]

Bleh... Even compatibilism ultimately accepts deterministic causes for all actions.

But even you must accept that you freely chose to respond to my reply, without being compelled against your will.

 

[sandwiches]

But even you must accept that you freely chose to respond to my reply, without being compelled against your will.

I agree. However, my reply and yours are the inevitable results of all preceding events leading up to our answering.

 

[jonmichael818]

But even you must accept that you freely chose to respond to my reply, without being compelled against your will.

Ok, but how did you receive what you call "your will?"
Magic?
Or prior influences?

 

[jonmichael818]

Sounds about correct.

Ok, so it really does just come down to how someone defines "free will," and whether or not there is such a thing as a "true" definition of free will?