Does Free Will Exist?

Chris81 · Apr 22, 2011

What evidence do we have that this entire Christian Forum is nothing more than a computer program that has created thousands of fake user accounts that post comments that mimicking arguments that people would likely have regarding religion, politics, and philosophy?

For all I know, all of you supposed users are nothing more than the outcome of a simulated computer program. Likewise none of you have any proof that I am actually a human.

Wiccan_Child · Apr 22, 2011

Chris81 said:
What evidence do we have that this entire Christian Forum is nothing more than a computer program that has created thousands of fake user accounts that post comments that mimicking arguments that people would likely have regarding religion, politics, and philosophy?

For all I know, all of you supposed users are nothing more than the outcome of a simulated computer program. Likewise none of you have any proof that I am actually a human.

We have proof beyond all reasonable doubt, though, which is good enough, and as good as we can get.

Chris81 · Apr 22, 2011

Wiccan_Child said:
We have proof beyond all reasonable doubt, though, which is good enough, and as good as we can get.

What proof is that?

What proof do you have that I am not part of a computer program simulated response?

Wiccan_Child · Apr 22, 2011

Chris81 said:
What proof is that?

What proof do you have that I am not part of a computer program simulated response?

Sheer statistics - no such program has been demonstrated, and it's supremely unlikely that it would be let loose on CF. Rather, it's more likely that you're a human making a philosophical point

Chris81 · Apr 22, 2011

Wiccan_Child said:
Sheer statistics - no such program has been demonstrated, and it's supremely unlikely that it would be let loose on CF. Rather, it's more likely that you're a human making a philosophical point

It is true that I am human or at at least I believe myself to be human.

Yes it is highly unlikely that a such a program exists at present that simulates a users on a chat forum. Although, I have been tempted to believe some of these users are the work of a faulty computer program merely because what they post defies all logic!

Ken-1122 · Apr 23, 2011

Wiccan child (quote) If you 'choose' to walk into a shop, how do you know you could have chosen differently? Once you've walked into the shop, that event is in the past. There's no way to actually choose differently.
So you say you could have - but how do you know?..... What's the difference between an automaton, and you? How do you know that you really can choose freely from a number of options? How do you know your decision making thoughts aren't as predestined as your decisions themselves?

(reply) as I said before, I have no reason to believe otherwise. I see no evidence that those far fetched claims of yours contain any truth so I doubt them.

Upisoft (quote) On contrary. Computers loose games. Therefore they make moves knowing they will loose..The same can be done by computers, which is called "difficulty setting" in this case.

(reply) Does the computer control its own difficulty setting? or does it require an intelligent outside source to make this setting; I think you are making my case for me.

(quote) Anyway, the question is reversed. The real question is if you can play chess before you have been programmed (what you did for your girlfriend). The answer is no, but we can learn to play it, some better some worse. Learning is our way to be programmed.]

(reply) I think learning is different than being programmed. When a computer is programmed to do something, it sticks with the program until someone changes it to allow it to do something else (different program) with learning, we decide what we do on our own and learning just adds to that which he have to choose to do on our own

(quote) If you have been programed as a Christian it will take a lot of reprogramming to become an atheist.

(reply) sometimes all it takes is a simple introduction to the truth

Ken

Wiccan_Child · Apr 23, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
as I said before, I have no reason to believe otherwise. I see no evidence that those far fetched claims of yours contain any truth so I doubt them.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. This is very different from what you've been saying before: "I probably have free will" is different to "I definitely have free will". But, I am not making any claims, far-fetched or otherwise, I'm just pointing out alternatives to your claim that you do indeed have free will.

So the onus of proof is on you. Why are you so convinced you have free will? What is your evidence? What is your rationale?

Wiccan_Child · Apr 23, 2011

Chris81 said:
It is true that I am human or at at least I believe myself to be human.

Hmm, isn't that what a computer would say? You won't pass the Turing test with that

Ken-1122 · Apr 23, 2011

Wiccan child (quote) Ah, now we're getting somewhere. This is very different from what you've been saying before: "I probably have free will" is different to "I definitely have free will". But, I am not making any claims, far-fetched or otherwise, I'm just pointing out alternatives to your claim that you do indeed have free will.

(reply) I think you are misunderstanding me. I know I have free will, just as I know the Earth is round, I know the effects of gravity will be in place tomorrow, and I know if I inhale enough water, I will die. Now can I prove it? No! But the word know is defined as:
To perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainly (from dictionary.com)

In other words, to "know" simply means to be convinced beyond a shadow of doubt.
So when I say I know I have free, I am actually saying: I perceive and understand as fact or truth that I have free will. This I apprehend clearly and with certainly

(quote) So the onus of proof is on you. Why are you so convinced you have free will? What is your evidence? What is your rationale?

(reply) At risk of sounding like a broken record, I am so convinced I have free will because I know the definition of free will and I know my choosing process fit that description.

Peace
Ken

Wiccan_Child · Apr 23, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
I think you are misunderstanding me. I know I have free will, just as I know the Earth is round, I know the effects of gravity will be in place tomorrow, and I know if I inhale enough water, I will die. Now can I prove it? No! But the word know is defined as:
To perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainly (from dictionary.com)

In other words, to "know" simply means to be convinced beyond a shadow of doubt.
So when I say I know I have free, I am actually saying: I perceive and understand as fact or truth that I have free will. This I apprehend clearly and with certainly

Epistemologically, knowledge cannot be attained without proof. If you cannot prove it, you do not know it. Colloquially, however, 'knowledge' is more akin to 'scientific fact' - we have sufficient evidence that it is true, to the extent that it's proven beyond all reasonable doubt. This is what I meant when in my above discussion with Chris81.

So, saying you 'know' you have free will in the same way you 'know' you'll drown underwater implies you a) believe you have free will, and b) you have such good evidence for that belief that there is no reasonable doubt of its truth. So what, then, is your evidence?

Ken-1122 said:
At risk of sounding like a broken record, I am so convinced I have free will because I know the definition of free will and I know my choosing process fit that description.

How do you know your choosing process fits that description? From what you've described thus far, you only have the heartfelt belief that it does, but no real reason, be it internal or external, that it is indeed the case.

Ken-1122 · Apr 23, 2011

(quote) Epistemologically, knowledge cannot be attained without proof. If you cannot prove it, you do not know it. Colloquially, however, 'knowledge' is more akin to 'scientific fact' - we have sufficient evidence that it is true, to the extent that it's proven beyond all reasonable doubt. This is what I meant when in my above discussion with Chris81.

(reply) I never claimed to have Epistemological knowledge (whatever that is) just knowledge.

(quote) So, saying you 'know' you have free will in the same way you 'know' you'll drown underwater implies you a) believe you have free will, and b) you have such good evidence for that belief that there is no reasonable doubt of its truth. So what, then, is your evidence?

(reply) Again! I know the definition of free will and I know it applies to me!

(quote) How do you know your choosing process fits that description?[/font]

(reply) Because the choosing process is a part of who I am; and until I am proven wrong, I will continue to know I am right.
now can you prove me wrong?

K

sandwiches · Apr 23, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
(reply) Because the choosing process is a part of who I am; and until I am proven wrong, I will continue to know I am right.
now can you prove me wrong?

What makes you think your choices are voluntary?

Ken-1122 · Apr 23, 2011

sandwiches said:
What makes you think your choices are voluntary?

I see no evidence that they are not, thus I believe they are
K

sandwiches · Apr 23, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
I see no evidence that they are not, thus I believe they are
K

Well, that's different from your above claims. I know my car is outside because I can see it from my window here. I believe it'll run next time I turn the ignition because it's run in the past and I have no reason to believe otherwise.

So, I think your belief is reasonable however your claim of knowledge is not and I noticed you didn't say "I see no evidence that they are not, thus I know they are."

Chris81 · Apr 23, 2011

Wiccan_Child said:
Hmm, isn't that what a computer would say? You won't pass the Turing test with that

Ken-1122 · Apr 24, 2011

sandwiches said:
Well, that's different from your above claims. I know my car is outside because I can see it from my window here. I believe it'll run next time I turn the ignition because it's run in the past and I have no reason to believe otherwise.

So, I think your belief is reasonable however your claim of knowledge is not and I noticed you didn't say "I see no evidence that they are not, thus I know they are."

I believe they are and I know they are. To know simply means to believe beyond a shadow of doubt; proof isn't necessary.

K

sandwiches · Apr 24, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
I believe they are and I know they are. To know simply means to believe beyond a shadow of doubt; proof isn't necessary.

K

So, you're saying that you see no evidence that your actions are not voluntary, so you KNOW they are?

Does that apply to God? You see no evidence that he exists, so you KNOW he doesn't exist?

Ken-1122 · Apr 24, 2011

sandwiches said:
So, you're saying that you see no evidence that your actions are not voluntary, so you KNOW they are?

Does that apply to God? You see no evidence that he exists, so you KNOW he doesn't exist?

It depends upon your concept of God

K

Upisoft · Apr 24, 2011

Ken-1122 said:
Does the computer control its own difficulty setting? or does it require an intelligent outside source to make this setting; I think you are making my case for me.

A computer can control it's own "difficulty setting". I don't know many implementations that do it though. We people like to control.

Ken-1122 said:
I think learning is different than being programmed. When a computer is programmed to do something, it sticks with the program until someone changes it to allow it to do something else (different program) with learning, we decide what we do on our own and learning just adds to that which he have to choose to do on our own

Not true. Computers can learn. For example, voice recognition software usually have learning cycle to adapt to the voice of the owner.

Ken-1122 said:
sometimes all it takes is a simple introduction to the truth

It depends on how much you have been indoctrinated.

Ken-1122 · Apr 24, 2011

Upisoft said:
A computer can control it's own "difficulty setting". I don't know many implementations that do it though. We people like to control.

Not true. Computers can learn. For example, voice recognition software usually have learning cycle to adapt to the voice of the owner.

It depends on how much you have been indoctrinated.

(reply) Do you suppoose such a computer has free will?
As far as indoctrination; I agree! I've seen so many theists who are so indoctrinated in their belief system that no amount of logic reason or even truth will sway them

K

Does Free Will Exist?

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