Does Ephesians 2:3 really teach an inherited sin nature?

[nephilimiyr]

Well, that's just it. The scripture never seems to speak of the human spirit as being "created". It is simply something God gives. We see the human soul being created (bara) in Gen.1:27. We see the body (Adam's original body) being formed (yatsar) in Gen.2:7 but when it comes to the human spirit? There are no "creative" words associated with it.

Really, then why is Paul saying that the new self was created to be like God in Eph. 4:24? the greek word used there for create is ktivzw(2932) and means to create, of creating worlds, to form, to shape.

It would appear that the human spirit is something of God Himself. The best analogy that I can think of is like if I were to give you my blood. Obviously that analogy can only go so far because my blood is in fact created but I think you get the general gist of what I mean.

Yah I get the gist, here's what I believe though.

Ephesians 4:22-24, You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Our spirit is that which gives life to us and is who we are. Before we were born again we had a spirit, but it was dead to God but it is what keeps us physically alive. Paul is refering to this dead spirit as the old self in Eph. 4:22. It has a nature and it is of sin. As Paul says, the old self, our dead spirit, is being corrupted by its deceitful desires.

But then Paul says to put off the old self and put on the new self. This new self is our new spirit. It is new because Paul says that God created it to be like him in true righteousness and holiness. Paul isn't saying that this new self is generated or transformed, he said this new self was created, specially formed and shaped to be like God.

So when we were born again, our old dead spirit left us. We crucified it through baptism.
Romans 6:3-4, or don't you know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
I believe that our old dead spirit was removed from us. We then becaime a brand new person with a newly created spirit. God literally sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts crying "Abba Father" (Gal 4:6). Our new spirit and the Holy Spirit merged and became one in marriage.

Ephesians 1:13-14, And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession, to the praise of his glory.

The "new creation" mentioned is looking from the perspective of the whole person not just the parts. Plus, this isn't referencing just regeneration but is revealing the uniquness of what we become in Christ. Never before in all human history has a man been indwelt by the Triune God. Yet we, the Church, are the abode of God.

Same with the Ephesians passage. It is looking at it from the perspective of the whole process. The new bodies we will receive in the Resurrection are created but God does not literally create a new soul for us when we believe. Rather, our souls are transformed through the intake of the word and the change of thinking renews our soul. As the preceeding verse puts it.. "we are made new in the attitude of our minds". Although this passage does not specifically refer to the new body, that knowledge is a part of our thinking. This is where we see eschatology impacting us in the present.

We don't judge God's truth. His truth (which is the word) judges us but you are correct in that the word then becomes our frame of reference for making judgements of "all things". If we refuse to come under the judgement of the word and stubbornly hold to our own thinking, we necessarily are not in a position to make correct judgements. If our thinking is false, our judgements will be false. Of course we all are subject to getting it wrong but that's not the problem. The problem comes when one refuses to be corrected.

Personally, I have come to enjoy being found wrong because then I have the opportunity to get it right and know Christ more.

peace

 

[sawdust]

Really, then why is Paul saying that the new self was created to be like God in Eph. 4:24? the greek word used there for create is ktivzw(2932) and means to create, of creating worlds, to form, to shape.

The Greek word is actually ktizo (2936) which is believed to be akin to ktaomai (2932). The latter has the general meaning of "to get, acquire, obtain". The former, "to fabricate, form, create".

Now look at the context. (I'm reading from the NIV) Beginning at verse 17, (speaking of the pre-regeneration state) we have: "futility of their thinking"; verse 18 "darkened in their understanding" and "ignorant". Verse 19, "lost all sensitivity". Then from verse 20, (the regenerated state): "you heard", "were taught in accordance with the truth". Now, having received this truth we are commanded to "put off the old self"(v22) and "put on the new self"(v24). How is this done? Verse 23:
to be made new in the attitude of your minds;

Put it all together. We have a verb meaning to create from what is acquired to be utilised in our attitude and thinking. In other words, Paul is telling his hearers: "stop thinking with the old lies that resulted in the old ways of corruption and start thinking (continually) with the truth of God that results in the new life. This life is a spiritual life created for us on the basis of Christ and is a righteous and just life, as God is righteous and just (ie (holy)".

This passage is talking about experiential sanctification. It needs to be noted, because you raised the 2Cor.5:17 passage earlier (new creation), that sanctification can be broken into threee parts. Positional, Experiential and Ultimate. Positional and Ultimate sanctification we have no role in except as passive recipients. The former we receive when we believe in Christ, the latter at the Resurrection. In between the two is experiential sanctification. This is where we "play our part". The Corinthian passage is talking about positional sanctification. It is important to understand the differences when reading scripture otherwise we will become confused as to the mechanics of how what we have is created.

Our spirit is that which gives life to us and is who we are. Before we were born again we had a spirit, but it was dead to God but it is what keeps us physically alive. Paul is refering to this dead spirit as the old self in Eph. 4:22. It has a nature and it is of sin. As Paul says, the old self, our dead spirit, is being corrupted by its deceitful desires.

This doesn't make any sense. How can that which is dead keep one alive? If your heart dies, your whole body dies. Who we are is in our thinking and our thinking is in our soul.

For as he thinks in his heart, so is he. Prov.23:7

This is in reference to the soul of man not the spirit of man. It is from our soul we have: thinking, emotion, self-consciousness, conscience, awareness, volition. It is from our soul that personality develops. It is our soul that has been created in the image and likeness of God (Gen.1:27) not our spirit. This is why the scripture speaks of "saving souls" (ie 1Pet.1:9 &2:25)

But then Paul says to put off the old self and put on the new self. This new self is our new spirit. It is new because Paul says that God created it to be like him in true righteousness and holiness. Paul isn't saying that this new self is generated or transformed, he said this new self was created, specially formed and shaped to be like God.

The new self is the spiritual life created by the work of Christ. It is not our human spirit given to us at regeneration. If it were, then all the OT saints who believed also had this new spiritual life. They did not and could not have it until Christ came and did His work.

So when we were born again, our old dead spirit left us. We crucified it through baptism.

It is our flesh that is crucified. Why would you kill something that is already dead? But our flesh, with it's inherent sin nature, is very much alive and kicking living in our bodies corrupting our souls because we are without God's truth to counter the deceit of the evil one who rules this world. Without a human spirit the only thing our souls can think with are Satan's lies because we cannot see or understand the Lord's Kingdom, His rule, His ways, His life.

Romans 6:3-4, or don't you know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

What was placed in the tomb, Christ's spirit or his body? His spirit returned to the Father.

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. Lk.23:46

What was raised from the tomb, His body or His spirit? The tomb was empty. If it was His spirit in there you wouldn't know if it was empty or not because "spirit" is unseen to begin with.


peace

 

[nephilimiyr]

Well then Sawdust I guess we still don't agree.

 

[sawdust]

Well then Sawdust I guess we still don't agree.

"C'est la vie".

peace

 

[nephilimiyr]

"C'est la vie".

peace

LOL, yeah. I really wasn't looking for debate but just wanting to show you were I'm at right now concerning this. I see I still have sometings to work out though but that's ok because the journey is just as much of the reward for me.

 

[2 King]

Man was created good and upright. However, man willfully sinned and thereby we subjected not only to pysical death but also to spiritual death, which is separation from God.
genesis 2:17
genesis 3:6
Romans 5:12-19

Mankind has a single common ancestry: Adam and Eve. The taint of sin occasioned by Adam's fall reaches the entire reace through this unity. Likewise, the redemption of Christ, the Second Adam, has a similar potential (Romans 5:18)

 

[holyrokker]

Manking has a single common ancestry: Adam and Eve. The taint of sin occasioned by Adam's fall reaches the entire reace through this unity. Likewise, the redemption of Christ, the Second Adam, has a similar potential (Romans 5:18)

But how can this mean that a sinful nature is inherited? The Bible doesn't make that claim.

 

[2 King]

But how can this mean that a sinful nature is inherited? The Bible doesn't make that claim.

good point...The Word of God never directly hits the subject of inherited sinful nature.

"knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,"- 1Peter 1:18

"However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods."- Galatians 4:8

Could it be that we were once sinners by nature and that by the blood of Christ Jesus we are no longer?

 

[holyrokker]

"However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods."- Galatians 4:8

Umm...This is saying that we were by nature slaves, but that we were slaves to things that that by nature aren't gods.

Could it be that we were once sinners by nature and that by the blood of Christ Jesus we are no longer?

I don't think so because being born sinful, or inheriting a sin nature would make mankind victims, and make sin a genetic problem.
Throughout the Bible sin is portrayed as a moral problem. Sin is wrong attitudes and choices. Sin is a deviation from the way we should be living. Sin is a lifestyle.
It also places Christ under an obligation to do something to save poor pitiful mankind. BAD ADAM! Poor, helpless Adam's descendants!

 

[2 King]

ok.

Sin is not a inherited nature.

oops i had used the wrong verse....

 

[sawdust]

Umm...This is saying that we were by nature slaves, but that we were slaves to things that that by nature aren't gods.

I don't think so because being born sinful, or inheriting a sin nature would make mankind victims, and make sin a genetic problem.
Throughout the Bible sin is portrayed as a moral problem. Sin is wrong attitudes and choices. Sin is a deviation from the way we should be living. Sin is a lifestyle.
It also places Christ under an obligation to do something to save poor pitiful mankind. BAD ADAM! Poor, helpless Adam's descendants!

Then I ask you again. If sin is not a genetic problem how is it that a two day old baby dies?

Sin is a genetic problem. It is also a moral and spiritual problem. It is a problem for every area of our lives and it is why even the natural creation has been handed over to vanity so that it can be clearly seen.

We are the victims of Adam's sin BUT ... we have the Gospel so there are no excuses for remaining victims and this does not excuse personal sin. (although it does explain it)

It doesn't place Christ under obligation. It does show, however, the Lord is more than willing to take responsibility for His own decisions. There are reasons why the Lord created only one man (and woman) at the start. He could have made everyone all at the same time, like He did with the angels if He wanted to, but He didn't.

Sin is lawlessness (1Jn.3:4). Anything that breaks God's Law is sin. If the sun decided not to give it's light? It would be a sin. Of course though, the sun can't think and has no volition, therefore cannot be held accountable.

We are helpless to do anything about the sin problem. We can, by strength of will, contain it to a degree but there is nothing we can do to eradicate it.

"Who will deliver me from this body of death?" (Rom.7:24)

peace

 

[holyrokker]

Then I ask you again. If sin is not a genetic problem how is it that a two day old baby dies? .....


....."Who will deliver me from this body of death?" (Rom.7:24)

peace

Genesis 3:22-24 "Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."

Being physical beings by birth, we are subject to physical death in this world.

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men..."

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Flesh is subject to death. Everything born in the world is subject to death. Even animals, who do not sin, are subject to death.

 

[sawdust]

Genesis 3:22-24 "Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."

Being physical beings by birth, we are subject to physical death in this world.

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men..."

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Flesh is subject to death. Everything born in the world is subject to death. Even animals, who do not sin, are subject to death.

Precisely. You and I die because we have inherited Adam's "fallen" body. It isn't simply because we are physical. The body God formed for Adam at the beginning was not subject to death simply because it was physical. God takes "no pleasure in death" (Eze.18:32). He would not make something that is in contradiction to His desire and then stand back and call it "good".

This is why we have the virgin birth. The Lord bypassed the seed of Joseph because that would have produced a "fallen body" (ie a body with a sin nature). Instead He created a body for the Christ utilizing the seed of the woman and in this way Christ was born without sin. If Christ was born as we are? He could not have saved us because He would have been "exactly as we are with sin" and in just as helpless a position as we are to save ourselves.

We are born with a sin nature. It is inherited from Adam and the dominion he was given was also handed over to the same penalty (Rom.8:20&21) even though, as you say, animals do not sin.

peace